[CowboyIndian]

A high SAT score requires a lot of studying and practice tests.

I hate to go all fogey on you, but I don't think that's true. When I took the test....which they gave in the caves of Lascaux....no one studied for it. You took the PSAT and then went for it a few Saturday mornings later with a couple of #2 pencils and not enough sleep. I don't think there were even any options to take a practice test or get tutored, at least I don't remember them. And this was before the tests were...ahem...re-centered. Granted, there were many fewer 1600s but I believe it was a much truer test of your academic progress and....see previous sentence.

[CowboyIndian]

A high SAT score requires a lot of studying and practice tests.

I hate to go all fogey on you, but I don't think that's true. When I took the test....which they gave in the caves of Lascaux....no one studied for it. You took the PSAT and then went for it a few Saturday mornings later with a couple of #2 pencils and not enough sleep. I don't think there were even any options to take a practice test or get tutored, at least I don't remember them. And this was before the tests were...ahem...re-centered. Granted, there were many fewer 1600s but I believe it was a much truer test of your academic progress and....see previous sentence.

[oldalum]

I'm old enough to remember those days with you CI, but we all took the PSAT a year earlier, fall of Junior Year. And few took practice tests or courses. Nowadays virtually everyone does, and that raises scores by 50 points or so--equivalent to the bump that students used to get in the old days by taking the SAT twice.

I disagree with the inference that a "lower" GPA necessarily reflects lack of work ethic. High schools across the country vary considerably in the difficulty of the classes offered, the generousness of their grading, and the number of high-achieving students. A lower GPA and high test scores could, in some high schools, represent someone who took a very difficult academic schedule--perhaps beyond their native abilities, such as the highest lane in math--combined with time-consuming athletics/activities. Knowing nothing about the high school (which is not the position college admission officers are in), I'd be more skeptical of someone with a high GPA and low test scores than the reverse. In my children's over-achieving high school, students commonly get "lower" GPAs and high SAT scores. It is common for students to get a B and occasionally even a C in an AP class and then get a "5" on the AP test. The standardized test is somewhat of a yardstick for the level of the school. More true of AP and subject tests than the SAT of course.

[oldalum]

I'm old enough to remember those days with you CI, but we all took the PSAT a year earlier, fall of Junior Year. And few took practice tests or courses. Nowadays virtually everyone does, and that raises scores by 50 points or so--equivalent to the bump that students used to get in the old days by taking the SAT twice.

I disagree with the inference that a "lower" GPA necessarily reflects lack of work ethic. High schools across the country vary considerably in the difficulty of the classes offered, the generousness of their grading, and the number of high-achieving students. A lower GPA and high test scores could, in some high schools, represent someone who took a very difficult academic schedule--perhaps beyond their native abilities, such as the highest lane in math--combined with time-consuming athletics/activities. Knowing nothing about the high school (which is not the position college admission officers are in), I'd be more skeptical of someone with a high GPA and low test scores than the reverse. In my children's over-achieving high school, students commonly get "lower" GPAs and high SAT scores. It is common for students to get a B and occasionally even a C in an AP class and then get a "5" on the AP test. The standardized test is somewhat of a yardstick for the level of the school. More true of AP and subject tests than the SAT of course.

[CowboyIndian]

I'm old enough to remember those days with you CI, but we all took the PSAT a year earlier, fall of Junior Year.

You're right. I must have forgotten to paint that on the cave wall.

[CowboyIndian]

I'm old enough to remember those days with you CI, but we all took the PSAT a year earlier, fall of Junior Year.

You're right. I must have forgotten to paint that on the cave wall.

[BostonCard]

If you think about it, requiring a higher SAT to offset a lower GPA is backwards. If we assume that the SAT is a measure of academic capability, which is what the schools do by using them, right or wrong. It follows that a lower GPA combined with a high SAT suggests underachievement. The converse would be true as well. I would take the person with the better work ethic and attitude.

The alternate explanation is that the school is just a tough grading school.  That's where class rank comes in, as well as history with other applicants.  If you have a whole bunch of kids with high test scores and low gpa's it might be the school, not the individuals.

But yes, too big of an imbalance is a red flag.

BC

[BostonCard]

If you think about it, requiring a higher SAT to offset a lower GPA is backwards. If we assume that the SAT is a measure of academic capability, which is what the schools do by using them, right or wrong. It follows that a lower GPA combined with a high SAT suggests underachievement. The converse would be true as well. I would take the person with the better work ethic and attitude.

The alternate explanation is that the school is just a tough grading school.  That's where class rank comes in, as well as history with other applicants.  If you have a whole bunch of kids with high test scores and low gpa's it might be the school, not the individuals.

But yes, too big of an imbalance is a red flag.

BC

[stanfan]

From what we have read about recruits, it seems clear that at least some of them have been told what score they need to achieve in order to be admitted.  Hence the stories about celebrations when that score is achieved and tales of kids pulling the plug and moving on when they don't hit the magic number.  This is not to say that the number is the same for each recruit.  It seems a curious way to run a railroad.

[stanfan]

From what we have read about recruits, it seems clear that at least some of them have been told what score they need to achieve in order to be admitted.  Hence the stories about celebrations when that score is achieved and tales of kids pulling the plug and moving on when they don't hit the magic number.  This is not to say that the number is the same for each recruit.  It seems a curious way to run a railroad.

[81alum]

A high SAT score requires a lot of studying and practice tests.

The idea that cramming for the SAT actually works is highly controversial and has been promulgated mostly by the prep companies that profit from that impression.  I imagine that intense cramming helps when you have had lousy high school classes and the prep class is equivalent to a good math or English class.  But large sums of money and time are wasted on the endeavor.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB124278685697537839

http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2011/0...et+Feed%29

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/37197700/ns/us...LthiS6rErg

[81alum]

A high SAT score requires a lot of studying and practice tests.

The idea that cramming for the SAT actually works is highly controversial and has been promulgated mostly by the prep companies that profit from that impression.  I imagine that intense cramming helps when you have had lousy high school classes and the prep class is equivalent to a good math or English class.  But large sums of money and time are wasted on the endeavor.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB124278685697537839

http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2011/0...et+Feed%29

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/37197700/ns/us...LthiS6rErg

[Hulk01]

My guess is that SAT prep helps a percentage of kids, if only by accustoming them to the test and showing them a few rules of thumb. 

It seems a weird test of "aptitude," however.  I raised my English test score over 33% between my senior year of HS and my sophomore year of college, as one example.  Did I become dramatically more "apt" in 24 months?  (And I didn't get any coaching; there wasn't any where we lived.) 

My guess is that Stanford admissions has seen enough similar cases to decide that these tests are useful in many cases but not in all. 

[Hulk01]

My guess is that SAT prep helps a percentage of kids, if only by accustoming them to the test and showing them a few rules of thumb. 

It seems a weird test of "aptitude," however.  I raised my English test score over 33% between my senior year of HS and my sophomore year of college, as one example.  Did I become dramatically more "apt" in 24 months?  (And I didn't get any coaching; there wasn't any where we lived.) 

My guess is that Stanford admissions has seen enough similar cases to decide that these tests are useful in many cases but not in all. 

[Rally]

I am totally unfamiliar with current SAT testing.  How is the new (to me) writing part scored?  Seems to have equal weight but I can't imagine someone talking to time to read each of the thousands of submissions.  Curious.

[Rally]

I am totally unfamiliar with current SAT testing.  How is the new (to me) writing part scored?  Seems to have equal weight but I can't imagine someone talking to time to read each of the thousands of submissions.  Curious.

[StanfordIndians1]

I do know that the Staff identify kids that have a shot early and make them push themselves their Junior and Senior year with AP classes etc. 

I remember reading that was a strength of Coach Anderson- he lays it out very well and has an idea early, but there is no guarantee or sure lock of admission until official word comes back.  Some denials were surprises while others fit.  I agree with what was said that I thinks its different for every kid and weighted with GPA, school, background, etc. just like other applicants.   

[StanfordIndians1]

I do know that the Staff identify kids that have a shot early and make them push themselves their Junior and Senior year with AP classes etc. 

I remember reading that was a strength of Coach Anderson- he lays it out very well and has an idea early, but there is no guarantee or sure lock of admission until official word comes back.  Some denials were surprises while others fit.  I agree with what was said that I thinks its different for every kid and weighted with GPA, school, background, etc. just like other applicants.   

[oldalum]

The written essay is only one part of the Writing section and score, the majority of the section is multiple choice questions on "improving sentences," "improving paragraphs," and "sentence errors." The written essays do have to be read and scored individually. The writing section is not a required part of the SAT (you can just take the math and reading sections) but schools can require it.

[oldalum]

The written essay is only one part of the Writing section and score, the majority of the section is multiple choice questions on "improving sentences," "improving paragraphs," and "sentence errors." The written essays do have to be read and scored individually. The writing section is not a required part of the SAT (you can just take the math and reading sections) but schools can require it.

[fullmetal]

[quote author=fullmetal link=topic=11694.msg112797#msg112797 date=1423347166]
A high SAT score requires a lot of studying and practice tests.

The idea that cramming for the SAT actually works is highly controversial and has been promulgated mostly by the prep companies that profit from that impression.  I imagine that intense cramming helps when you have had lousy high school classes and the prep class is equivalent to a good math or English class.  But large sums of money and time are wasted on the endeavor.
[/quote]

"Cramming" might not work.  But I went through a few practice books and really focused on my weaknesses, and I ended up with a really nice score.  That took many spare weekend mornings and summer vacation days...that's not so much cramming as dedicated study.

[fullmetal]

[quote author=fullmetal link=topic=11694.msg112797#msg112797 date=1423347166]
A high SAT score requires a lot of studying and practice tests.

The idea that cramming for the SAT actually works is highly controversial and has been promulgated mostly by the prep companies that profit from that impression.  I imagine that intense cramming helps when you have had lousy high school classes and the prep class is equivalent to a good math or English class.  But large sums of money and time are wasted on the endeavor.
[/quote]

"Cramming" might not work.  But I went through a few practice books and really focused on my weaknesses, and I ended up with a really nice score.  That took many spare weekend mornings and summer vacation days...that's not so much cramming as dedicated study.

[Mick]

[quote author=81alum link=topic=11694.msg112807#msg112807 date=1423371001]
[quote author=fullmetal link=topic=11694.msg112797#msg112797 date=1423347166]
A high SAT score requires a lot of studying and practice tests.

The idea that cramming for the SAT actually works is highly controversial and has been promulgated mostly by the prep companies that profiIt from that impression.  I imagine that intense cramming helps when you have had lousy high school classes and the prep class is equivalent to a good math or English class.  But large sums of money and time are wasted on the endeavor.
[/quote]

"Cramming" might not work.  But I went through a few practice books and really focused on my weaknesses, and I ended up with a really nice score.  That took many spare weekend mornings and summer vacation days...that's not so much cramming as dedicated study.
[/quote]

I had a 210 point jump between my first and second test on the old 1600 scale.  My son had a 170 point jump on the new scale.  It can be done.

[Mick]

[quote author=81alum link=topic=11694.msg112807#msg112807 date=1423371001]
[quote author=fullmetal link=topic=11694.msg112797#msg112797 date=1423347166]
A high SAT score requires a lot of studying and practice tests.

The idea that cramming for the SAT actually works is highly controversial and has been promulgated mostly by the prep companies that profiIt from that impression.  I imagine that intense cramming helps when you have had lousy high school classes and the prep class is equivalent to a good math or English class.  But large sums of money and time are wasted on the endeavor.
[/quote]

"Cramming" might not work.  But I went through a few practice books and really focused on my weaknesses, and I ended up with a really nice score.  That took many spare weekend mornings and summer vacation days...that's not so much cramming as dedicated study.
[/quote]

I had a 210 point jump between my first and second test on the old 1600 scale.  My son had a 170 point jump on the new scale.  It can be done.