[Timmy]

Can anyone help me with the actual NCAA rule on scholarships. In the case of Young Diddy there is a controversy that his father ought to pay his way. I am of the thought that even if The Elder would want to do that, he is prohibited from doing so as his son is a recruited athlete. There are probably good reasons for it- mostly aimed at leveling the field at not letting schools stockpile players.

That is to say, are " recruited " football athletes- counters- required to take the grant money? I can't find the rule or make sense of the NCAA manual. Any help would be appreciated.

[Timmy]

Can anyone help me with the actual NCAA rule on scholarships. In the case of Young Diddy there is a controversy that his father ought to pay his way. I am of the thought that even if The Elder would want to do that, he is prohibited from doing so as his son is a recruited athlete. There are probably good reasons for it- mostly aimed at leveling the field at not letting schools stockpile players.

That is to say, are " recruited " football athletes- counters- required to take the grant money? I can't find the rule or make sense of the NCAA manual. Any help would be appreciated.

[pincemob]

I am pretty sure a player can volunteer to pay his/her own way, freeing up a scholarship.  Washington State had a player do this a few years ago (Taylor Rochestie) to make room for another player to join the team.  I recall the same debate following Jeffrey Jordan, when he was offered a scholarship.  I don't know the exact NCAA rule, but you could look at those cases for guidance on it. 

[pincemob]

I am pretty sure a player can volunteer to pay his/her own way, freeing up a scholarship.  Washington State had a player do this a few years ago (Taylor Rochestie) to make room for another player to join the team.  I recall the same debate following Jeffrey Jordan, when he was offered a scholarship.  I don't know the exact NCAA rule, but you could look at those cases for guidance on it. 

[CowboyIndian]

I am pretty sure a player can volunteer to pay his/her own way, freeing up a scholarship. 

I don't know the rule, either, but this seems like a mighty slippery slope, if true.

[CowboyIndian]

I am pretty sure a player can volunteer to pay his/her own way, freeing up a scholarship. 

I don't know the rule, either, but this seems like a mighty slippery slope, if true.

[Timmy]

It does seem like a slippery slope to me, too, which is why I am curious. Sure, on the face of it, one might think that Diddy The Elder ought to pay for his son's attendance- I mean, he can afford it. And wouldn't that relieve the strain on strapped athletic depts.

But then one could imagine all sorts of wonderful institutions gaming the system, making arrangements with recruiting locks, who come from solid economic circumstances whose football daddies would do most anything for Junior to play for State U., to simply walk-on. If I remember the walk-on rule correctly, as long as he wasn't recruited ( official visit ) he would not be a counter against the 85 rule. And even if he did count should he get into a game, there would be stockpiled scholarship talent there, effectively giving schools a surplus of first rate talent. It would effectively end the 85 rule.

For Stanford, which is never as deep in talent as any of us would like, and has the built in disadvantage of actual admission requirements, I'm thinking " paying your own way" and freeing-up a scholarship, which I'm sure might be possible for a few of our guys would not be a good thing. And it would be a big advantage to State U.

[Timmy]

It does seem like a slippery slope to me, too, which is why I am curious. Sure, on the face of it, one might think that Diddy The Elder ought to pay for his son's attendance- I mean, he can afford it. And wouldn't that relieve the strain on strapped athletic depts.

But then one could imagine all sorts of wonderful institutions gaming the system, making arrangements with recruiting locks, who come from solid economic circumstances whose football daddies would do most anything for Junior to play for State U., to simply walk-on. If I remember the walk-on rule correctly, as long as he wasn't recruited ( official visit ) he would not be a counter against the 85 rule. And even if he did count should he get into a game, there would be stockpiled scholarship talent there, effectively giving schools a surplus of first rate talent. It would effectively end the 85 rule.

For Stanford, which is never as deep in talent as any of us would like, and has the built in disadvantage of actual admission requirements, I'm thinking " paying your own way" and freeing-up a scholarship, which I'm sure might be possible for a few of our guys would not be a good thing. And it would be a big advantage to State U.

[Embo]

There is a precedent - though it was a slimy one, involving (who else?) Tim Floyd of the University of South Central basketball infamy.  SC offered a scholarship to Lil Romeo Miller, the rapper.  Lil Romeo just happened to be good friends and HS teammate with Demarr DeRozan, the much more heralded recruit.  Floyd offered Miller so that DeRozan would come as a package.  Miller then freed up his scholarship by offering to pay his own way.

Here's one thought I had.  Remember when Jon Wilner made such a fuss about the custom bathroom for Harbaugh?  The BR was paid for by private donations, and took zero - nada - department funds, or more importantly, taxpayer funds.  Yet Wilner was harping about how that was bad PR for these difficult financial times.  Young Diddy is getting a full ride at a time when UC budgets are being slashed and tuition is rising.  Okay, so football scholarships don't come from state funds, but gee, isn't this bad PR for these difficult financial times, Mr. Wilner?  There's no outrage because it doesn't involve Stanford.

[Embo]

There is a precedent - though it was a slimy one, involving (who else?) Tim Floyd of the University of South Central basketball infamy.  SC offered a scholarship to Lil Romeo Miller, the rapper.  Lil Romeo just happened to be good friends and HS teammate with Demarr DeRozan, the much more heralded recruit.  Floyd offered Miller so that DeRozan would come as a package.  Miller then freed up his scholarship by offering to pay his own way.

Here's one thought I had.  Remember when Jon Wilner made such a fuss about the custom bathroom for Harbaugh?  The BR was paid for by private donations, and took zero - nada - department funds, or more importantly, taxpayer funds.  Yet Wilner was harping about how that was bad PR for these difficult financial times.  Young Diddy is getting a full ride at a time when UC budgets are being slashed and tuition is rising.  Okay, so football scholarships don't come from state funds, but gee, isn't this bad PR for these difficult financial times, Mr. Wilner?  There's no outrage because it doesn't involve Stanford.

[Redrum]

Who the **** are  Young Diddy and Diddy the Elder?  I Diddy the Elder Sean Combs?  Does this involve Stanford or some other school?

[Redrum]

Who the **** are  Young Diddy and Diddy the Elder?  I Diddy the Elder Sean Combs?  Does this involve Stanford or some other school?

[Embo]

"Young Diddy" refers to Justin Combs, a three star HS DB recruit.  His father is Sean Combs, he of the "Puff Daddy" or "P Diddy" or just "P" or just "Diddy" nickname.  The news is that Justin Combs has committed to UCLA for a full athletic scholarship.  The controversy is that his father has a net worth of $500 million or so.  Critics have contended that, given the financial headaches of the State of California and the University of California in particular, Justin's father can easily afford to pay the four years of tuition.  The argument in response by UCLA football supporters is that Justin's scholarship is paid via athletic department receipts and donations, not via the university's (and hence taxpayers') general fund.

My argument remains - why doesn't Wilmer make as much indignation about this bad PR as he did of the $50,000 bathroom?

[Embo]

"Young Diddy" refers to Justin Combs, a three star HS DB recruit.  His father is Sean Combs, he of the "Puff Daddy" or "P Diddy" or just "P" or just "Diddy" nickname.  The news is that Justin Combs has committed to UCLA for a full athletic scholarship.  The controversy is that his father has a net worth of $500 million or so.  Critics have contended that, given the financial headaches of the State of California and the University of California in particular, Justin's father can easily afford to pay the four years of tuition.  The argument in response by UCLA football supporters is that Justin's scholarship is paid via athletic department receipts and donations, not via the university's (and hence taxpayers') general fund.

My argument remains - why doesn't Wilmer make as much indignation about this bad PR as he did of the $50,000 bathroom?

[JohnR34231]

I think if you're going to make that argument you should say that California (or any state with financial problems, which is most of them) should comb through the lists of every student-athlete on athletic scholarship, and try to get any parents with the financial wherewithal to pay for their child's tuition and expenses.

That would of course pretty much involve eliminating the current athletic scholarship system as we know it.

[JohnR34231]

I think if you're going to make that argument you should say that California (or any state with financial problems, which is most of them) should comb through the lists of every student-athlete on athletic scholarship, and try to get any parents with the financial wherewithal to pay for their child's tuition and expenses.

That would of course pretty much involve eliminating the current athletic scholarship system as we know it.

[pincemob]

I don't think it's such a slippery slope.  First, I think very few student-athletes would relinquish their scholarship.  Athletes love the fact that they get scholarships, free meals, and other perks which paying students do not.  In my experience, this was cherished by athletes who came from means as much as by those who did not.    Second, I think we are overestimating the percentage of athletes' parents who have an extra $25,000-50,000 laying around.  Definitely less than 1%.  And even those who do would probably be as excited to pay for Junior's school as they are to pay another 2% income tax. 

It would obviously be a penalty to pay for someone else's kid.  I think the NCAA is pretty clear about this and good at enforcing it.  I recall when Mr. Leinart was busted for paying more than 50% of Matt's rent (as I recall, Matt roomed with Dwayne Jarrett and even though Jarrett was paying a reasonable rent, this was deemed a violation). 

[pincemob]

I don't think it's such a slippery slope.  First, I think very few student-athletes would relinquish their scholarship.  Athletes love the fact that they get scholarships, free meals, and other perks which paying students do not.  In my experience, this was cherished by athletes who came from means as much as by those who did not.    Second, I think we are overestimating the percentage of athletes' parents who have an extra $25,000-50,000 laying around.  Definitely less than 1%.  And even those who do would probably be as excited to pay for Junior's school as they are to pay another 2% income tax. 

It would obviously be a penalty to pay for someone else's kid.  I think the NCAA is pretty clear about this and good at enforcing it.  I recall when Mr. Leinart was busted for paying more than 50% of Matt's rent (as I recall, Matt roomed with Dwayne Jarrett and even though Jarrett was paying a reasonable rent, this was deemed a violation). 

[CowboyIndian]

The slope gets slippery when you have boosters giving money to parents, who volunteer to have their son/daughter's scholarship given to someone else. Reverend Newton, anyone?

[CowboyIndian]

The slope gets slippery when you have boosters giving money to parents, who volunteer to have their son/daughter's scholarship given to someone else. Reverend Newton, anyone?

[Ratmandoo]

There is a precedent - though it was a slimy one, involving (who else?) Tim Floyd of the University of South Central basketball infamy.  SC offered a scholarship to Lil Romeo Miller, the rapper.  Lil Romeo just happened to be good friends and HS teammate with Demarr DeRozan, the much more heralded recruit.  Floyd offered Miller so that DeRozan would come as a package.  Miller then freed up his scholarship by offering to pay his own way.

I thought Lil Romeo kept that scholarship while DeRozan was still on the team and USC took away his scholarship a year or two after DeRozan went to the NBA. Yes, the Millers could have paid for Lil Romeo to sit on the bench but having the scholarship was much more important to them. That legitimized Lil Romeo as an actual athlete. I'm sure Young Diddy and Elder Diddy feel the same way. I don't see any way they will give up that scholarship. Otherwise it looks like Diddy is paying for his son to be on the UCLA team.

This whole thread reminds me of a talk the Mark Marquess gave about baseball scholarships. The baseball team only as 11.7 scholarships to spread among 35-40 players each year. Those scholarships are sliced up to support a number of different players (Marquess says no one on the team gets more than a 75% scholarship on the team). For the highly recruited players on the team, Marquess tells them that at least 50% of their education will be paid for over the four years but that percentage will most like vary from year to year. He usually spends most of his scholarships on the freshmen because they all believe that the amount of scholarship money they are getting afffects their playing time (Marquess said that this isn't true). So even if there are families that can pay the tuition or qualify for financial aid, most of them still hold out for the biggest scholarship because of the prestige and the idea that it means more playing time. Based on what Marquess said in this talk, I really don't think there will be a lot of situations where athletes from rich families will really impact the depth of major college teams.

However, the Stanford financial aid system helps most of our teams. Back to the Marquess talk, if he's able to get a kid whose family qualifies for the need-based Stanford financial aid, that kid could take that financial aid instead of the athletic scholarship. In fact, the Stanford need based aid gives the kid more money than an athletic scholarship does (it covers more of the actual cost of attending the school). This is allowed because every student attends Stanford is eligible and isn't an extra benefit to the athletets.

This does not work for all sports. The head count sports (men's basketball and football, and women's basketball, tennis, volleyball and gymnastics) have to award full scholarships and can't cut them up to spread them out more players on the team. I'm not 100% sure, but anyone who plays on these teams either has to have a scholarship or pay their own way and can't get the general university financial aid. So a football walk-on can receive financial aid until he gets playing time. After that, he either needs to receive a scholarship or have to pay his own way without any university grants.

[Ratmandoo]

There is a precedent - though it was a slimy one, involving (who else?) Tim Floyd of the University of South Central basketball infamy.  SC offered a scholarship to Lil Romeo Miller, the rapper.  Lil Romeo just happened to be good friends and HS teammate with Demarr DeRozan, the much more heralded recruit.  Floyd offered Miller so that DeRozan would come as a package.  Miller then freed up his scholarship by offering to pay his own way.

I thought Lil Romeo kept that scholarship while DeRozan was still on the team and USC took away his scholarship a year or two after DeRozan went to the NBA. Yes, the Millers could have paid for Lil Romeo to sit on the bench but having the scholarship was much more important to them. That legitimized Lil Romeo as an actual athlete. I'm sure Young Diddy and Elder Diddy feel the same way. I don't see any way they will give up that scholarship. Otherwise it looks like Diddy is paying for his son to be on the UCLA team.

This whole thread reminds me of a talk the Mark Marquess gave about baseball scholarships. The baseball team only as 11.7 scholarships to spread among 35-40 players each year. Those scholarships are sliced up to support a number of different players (Marquess says no one on the team gets more than a 75% scholarship on the team). For the highly recruited players on the team, Marquess tells them that at least 50% of their education will be paid for over the four years but that percentage will most like vary from year to year. He usually spends most of his scholarships on the freshmen because they all believe that the amount of scholarship money they are getting afffects their playing time (Marquess said that this isn't true). So even if there are families that can pay the tuition or qualify for financial aid, most of them still hold out for the biggest scholarship because of the prestige and the idea that it means more playing time. Based on what Marquess said in this talk, I really don't think there will be a lot of situations where athletes from rich families will really impact the depth of major college teams.

However, the Stanford financial aid system helps most of our teams. Back to the Marquess talk, if he's able to get a kid whose family qualifies for the need-based Stanford financial aid, that kid could take that financial aid instead of the athletic scholarship. In fact, the Stanford need based aid gives the kid more money than an athletic scholarship does (it covers more of the actual cost of attending the school). This is allowed because every student attends Stanford is eligible and isn't an extra benefit to the athletets.

This does not work for all sports. The head count sports (men's basketball and football, and women's basketball, tennis, volleyball and gymnastics) have to award full scholarships and can't cut them up to spread them out more players on the team. I'm not 100% sure, but anyone who plays on these teams either has to have a scholarship or pay their own way and can't get the general university financial aid. So a football walk-on can receive financial aid until he gets playing time. After that, he either needs to receive a scholarship or have to pay his own way without any university grants.

[yvonne]

Back to the Marquess talk, if he's able to get a kid whose family qualifies for the need-based Stanford financial aid

Translation: If he's able to get a kid whose family makes less than approximately twice the US median family income.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

[yvonne]

Back to the Marquess talk, if he's able to get a kid whose family qualifies for the need-based Stanford financial aid

Translation: If he's able to get a kid whose family makes less than approximately twice the US median family income.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

[Hank 91]

It should also be noted that some players who sign baseball contracts coming out of high school often have stipulations in those contracts saying that the major league baseball team will pay for a college education down the road if the player doesn't make the majors by an agreed upon date. (I'm betting offers like this are only used for those players weighing professional baseball vs. a football scholarship.) I don't know if his applies to high-profile guys like Brandon Weeden, but I'm pretty sure it applies to Jordan Pratt. I asked David Shaw if he felt Pratt might ever earn himself a scholarship, and he told me that he never will because he'll never need one.

[Hank 91]

It should also be noted that some players who sign baseball contracts coming out of high school often have stipulations in those contracts saying that the major league baseball team will pay for a college education down the road if the player doesn't make the majors by an agreed upon date. (I'm betting offers like this are only used for those players weighing professional baseball vs. a football scholarship.) I don't know if his applies to high-profile guys like Brandon Weeden, but I'm pretty sure it applies to Jordan Pratt. I asked David Shaw if he felt Pratt might ever earn himself a scholarship, and he told me that he never will because he'll never need one.

[akiddoc]

Recruited walk-ons can not play in D1 football if the 85 scholarships are full. Un-recruited walk-ons are free to play. I don't know every rule that makes you "recruited" - I think you're recruited if the coaches call you more than once. Obviously, Combs was recruited. UCLA will want him to play if he is good enough. And kids don't want to be labeled as walk-ons.

The issue with Diddy Combs is that he is worth 550 million dollars. More than just well-off.

[akiddoc]

Recruited walk-ons can not play in D1 football if the 85 scholarships are full. Un-recruited walk-ons are free to play. I don't know every rule that makes you "recruited" - I think you're recruited if the coaches call you more than once. Obviously, Combs was recruited. UCLA will want him to play if he is good enough. And kids don't want to be labeled as walk-ons.

The issue with Diddy Combs is that he is worth 550 million dollars. More than just well-off.

[fullmetal]

Give Combs The Younger a roster spot just for the alumnus donations you reel in for the coming decades...

[fullmetal]

Give Combs The Younger a roster spot just for the alumnus donations you reel in for the coming decades...

[97fan]

Just because his son is on scholarship doesn't mean Combs isn't going to write a $10 million check to the UCLA athletic department.

It seems fairly likely that there's some tacit deal here: give my son a football scholarship, and I'll quietly write you a large check. And even if there's no such deal, think about UCLA's incentives. Rationally it makes sense for the school to wager $200K that Combs will have a good experience at UCLA, and his Dad will one day write a much bigger check.

This is, after all, a 5 foot-9 inch, 170-pound cornerback from the East Coast, who's a two-star recruit according to Rivals. He does have a couple of other decent offers - Illinois and Virginia - but it seems likely to me that their offers reflect the same financial incentives that UCLA's offer does.

This kind of thing happens all the time with walk-ons, at Stanford and elsewhere. Guys routinely make college football rosters because they are the sons and grandsons of very rich people. My guess is that the only thing different here is that Combs is getting a scholarship.

[97fan]

Just because his son is on scholarship doesn't mean Combs isn't going to write a $10 million check to the UCLA athletic department.

It seems fairly likely that there's some tacit deal here: give my son a football scholarship, and I'll quietly write you a large check. And even if there's no such deal, think about UCLA's incentives. Rationally it makes sense for the school to wager $200K that Combs will have a good experience at UCLA, and his Dad will one day write a much bigger check.

This is, after all, a 5 foot-9 inch, 170-pound cornerback from the East Coast, who's a two-star recruit according to Rivals. He does have a couple of other decent offers - Illinois and Virginia - but it seems likely to me that their offers reflect the same financial incentives that UCLA's offer does.

This kind of thing happens all the time with walk-ons, at Stanford and elsewhere. Guys routinely make college football rosters because they are the sons and grandsons of very rich people. My guess is that the only thing different here is that Combs is getting a scholarship.