[81alum]

What does it mean for a team to "become more athletic"?  I heard this phrase used by Heather Oesterle at a chalk talk during the year, I've heard it used by various TV announcers and also by other Cardboarders.  The ACC is a more "athletic" league than the old Pac 12, we are told.  But it is not as if we would ever say our players were not "athletes." 

Possibilities:  greater quickness and speed, greater tolerance for scoring in traffic, higher level of intensity on defense. 

Is this all it means?

It also reminds me that Stanford, in other sports, often had an easier time recruiting "skill players" than "athletes."  It seems that high academic achievement can go together quite easily with a focus on developing certain skills in sports.  Both require learning and practice.  But natural or genetic athleticism may have no correlation to academic achievement--nice when they overlap but purely by chance.

Was the old Pac 12 a league that emphasized "skill," meaning the kinds of things that practice can teach, while the ACC is a league that emphasizes "athleticism," meaning innate speed and quickness?  Is that what people mean by the comparison?  And if so, is there something overly simplistic with it?

It does really matter for our recruitment and long term competitiveness that we get this right--whatever "this" is.

[81alum]

What does it mean for a team to "become more athletic"?  I heard this phrase used by Heather Oesterle at a chalk talk during the year, I've heard it used by various TV announcers and also by other Cardboarders.  The ACC is a more "athletic" league than the old Pac 12, we are told.  But it is not as if we would ever say our players were not "athletes." 

Possibilities:  greater quickness and speed, greater tolerance for scoring in traffic, higher level of intensity on defense. 

Is this all it means?

It also reminds me that Stanford, in other sports, often had an easier time recruiting "skill players" than "athletes."  It seems that high academic achievement can go together quite easily with a focus on developing certain skills in sports.  Both require learning and practice.  But natural or genetic athleticism may have no correlation to academic achievement--nice when they overlap but purely by chance.

Was the old Pac 12 a league that emphasized "skill," meaning the kinds of things that practice can teach, while the ACC is a league that emphasizes "athleticism," meaning innate speed and quickness?  Is that what people mean by the comparison?  And if so, is there something overly simplistic with it?

It does really matter for our recruitment and long term competitiveness that we get this right--whatever "this" is.

[BillBradley]

What does it mean for a team to "become more athletic"?  I heard this phrase used by Heather Oesterle at a chalk talk during the year, I've heard it used by various TV announcers and also by other Cardboarders.  The ACC is a more "athletic" league than the old Pac 12, we are told.  But it is not as if we would ever say our players were not "athletes." 

Possibilities:  greater quickness and speed, greater tolerance for scoring in traffic, higher level of intensity on defense. 

Is this all it means?

It also reminds me that Stanford, in other sports, often had an easier time recruiting "skill players" than "athletes."  It seems that high academic achievement can go together quite easily with a focus on developing certain skills in sports.  Both require learning and practice.  But natural or genetic athleticism may have no correlation to academic achievement--nice when they overlap but purely by chance.

Was the old Pac 12 a league that emphasized "skill," meaning the kinds of things that practice can teach, while the ACC is a league that emphasizes "athleticism," meaning innate speed and quickness?  Is that what people mean by the comparison?  And if so, is there something overly simplistic with it?

It does really matter for our recruitment and long term competitiveness that we get this right--whatever "this" is.

I don't think there's any nuance to this question. The term "an athletic player" in basketball means being fast, laterally quick, strong, a higher jumper, etc. All these things are measurable. Some players are born with it, others have to work at it. Players can definitely become more athletic. Strength and conditioning coaches use training techniques to improve all of these things. For example, it's not uncommon for players to add many inches to their vertical leap over time.

For coaches to make their team more athletic, they can 1) recruit better athletes and 2) improve the athleticism of their existing players. 

My personal opinion is that you can win some games with very skilled players who aren't very athletic, but you will hit a wall against the best teams. You need "athletes" to win championships. Our Natty team was VERY athletic. Cam took us to a whole different level. For her size, she brought a level of speed and quickness that other teams couldn't match. She was very quick to the ball (rebounding/shot blocking). Kiana, Lexie, Lacey, Anna - very fast players and all could defend quick opponents. Haley was really strong and fast for her size. Fran - crazy hops. Tara often talked about how that team was better when they played faster. Unlike this past year's team, which might have been the slowest team we've ever had. We HAVE to have better athletes to compete - it doesn't matter if we're in the P12, ACC, or any of the power conferences. 

What I find interesting about the comment from Oesterle...I think coaches all have their own method to the madness. Boeheim played a lot of zone, so he recruited players with a lot of length and great jumpers to rebound out of the zone. Shaka Smart, Bob Huggins, Nolan Richardson - their teams defend and they recruit players that already have a defensive mindset.  Kelvin Sampson recruits length and wingspan. Tara had a focus on rebounding and Stanford typically had a lot of size on the roster. Tara also liked shooters and more offensively inclined players, claiming it was easier to teach those players how to defend vs. teaching defensive minded players to score. I agree with that approach. The comment from Oesterle, to me, says that the current roster had more offensive minded players (Bosgana, Demetre, Clardy, Heal, Harriel), but they just weren't athletic enough to get open or to defend more athletic teams.

The Stanford coaches want athletes, but they also want a level of skill. Ideally, they get both. It's what everyone wants.They recruited Hidalgo for example, but just didn't get her. The question is...when you can't get the Hidalgo's of the world, who do you go after? There are plenty of high schoolers out there who are pure athletes but less skilled (a good recent example is Emma-Nnopu), but we typically go after size/strength/skill instead (Demetre, Stevenson, Peterson, Umeh).

[BillBradley]

What does it mean for a team to "become more athletic"?  I heard this phrase used by Heather Oesterle at a chalk talk during the year, I've heard it used by various TV announcers and also by other Cardboarders.  The ACC is a more "athletic" league than the old Pac 12, we are told.  But it is not as if we would ever say our players were not "athletes." 

Possibilities:  greater quickness and speed, greater tolerance for scoring in traffic, higher level of intensity on defense. 

Is this all it means?

It also reminds me that Stanford, in other sports, often had an easier time recruiting "skill players" than "athletes."  It seems that high academic achievement can go together quite easily with a focus on developing certain skills in sports.  Both require learning and practice.  But natural or genetic athleticism may have no correlation to academic achievement--nice when they overlap but purely by chance.

Was the old Pac 12 a league that emphasized "skill," meaning the kinds of things that practice can teach, while the ACC is a league that emphasizes "athleticism," meaning innate speed and quickness?  Is that what people mean by the comparison?  And if so, is there something overly simplistic with it?

It does really matter for our recruitment and long term competitiveness that we get this right--whatever "this" is.

I don't think there's any nuance to this question. The term "an athletic player" in basketball means being fast, laterally quick, strong, a higher jumper, etc. All these things are measurable. Some players are born with it, others have to work at it. Players can definitely become more athletic. Strength and conditioning coaches use training techniques to improve all of these things. For example, it's not uncommon for players to add many inches to their vertical leap over time.

For coaches to make their team more athletic, they can 1) recruit better athletes and 2) improve the athleticism of their existing players. 

My personal opinion is that you can win some games with very skilled players who aren't very athletic, but you will hit a wall against the best teams. You need "athletes" to win championships. Our Natty team was VERY athletic. Cam took us to a whole different level. For her size, she brought a level of speed and quickness that other teams couldn't match. She was very quick to the ball (rebounding/shot blocking). Kiana, Lexie, Lacey, Anna - very fast players and all could defend quick opponents. Haley was really strong and fast for her size. Fran - crazy hops. Tara often talked about how that team was better when they played faster. Unlike this past year's team, which might have been the slowest team we've ever had. We HAVE to have better athletes to compete - it doesn't matter if we're in the P12, ACC, or any of the power conferences. 

What I find interesting about the comment from Oesterle...I think coaches all have their own method to the madness. Boeheim played a lot of zone, so he recruited players with a lot of length and great jumpers to rebound out of the zone. Shaka Smart, Bob Huggins, Nolan Richardson - their teams defend and they recruit players that already have a defensive mindset.  Kelvin Sampson recruits length and wingspan. Tara had a focus on rebounding and Stanford typically had a lot of size on the roster. Tara also liked shooters and more offensively inclined players, claiming it was easier to teach those players how to defend vs. teaching defensive minded players to score. I agree with that approach. The comment from Oesterle, to me, says that the current roster had more offensive minded players (Bosgana, Demetre, Clardy, Heal, Harriel), but they just weren't athletic enough to get open or to defend more athletic teams.

The Stanford coaches want athletes, but they also want a level of skill. Ideally, they get both. It's what everyone wants.They recruited Hidalgo for example, but just didn't get her. The question is...when you can't get the Hidalgo's of the world, who do you go after? There are plenty of high schoolers out there who are pure athletes but less skilled (a good recent example is Emma-Nnopu), but we typically go after size/strength/skill instead (Demetre, Stevenson, Peterson, Umeh).

[BobK]

Shay is very athletic
Swain and Somfai seem very athletic based on video
However the game is also about putting the ball in the basket. Ala Jump. Got to have both
I have always admired Tara for filling the roster. Some like Rappahahn wont play until later Some like Papi maybe never but then better than some with 11.

[BobK]

Shay is very athletic
Swain and Somfai seem very athletic based on video
However the game is also about putting the ball in the basket. Ala Jump. Got to have both
I have always admired Tara for filling the roster. Some like Rappahahn wont play until later Some like Papi maybe never but then better than some with 11.

[crackpot]

 There are plenty of high schoolers out there who are pure athletes but less skilled (a good recent example is Emma-Nnopu), but we typically go after size/strength/skill instead (Demetre, Stevenson, Peterson, Umeh).

Speaking of, Agnes had 23 points for TCU yesterday against Louisville.

[crackpot]

 There are plenty of high schoolers out there who are pure athletes but less skilled (a good recent example is Emma-Nnopu), but we typically go after size/strength/skill instead (Demetre, Stevenson, Peterson, Umeh).

Speaking of, Agnes had 23 points for TCU yesterday against Louisville.

[81alum]

Shay is very athletic
Swain and Somfai seem very athletic based on video
However the game is also about putting the ball in the basket.  Ala Jump. Got to have both
I have always admired Tara for filling the roster. Some like Rappahahn wont play until later Some like Papi maybe never but then better than some with 11.

Good points, Bob.  Shay seems to me to be a highly gifted athlete who is still working on her skillset.  Hannah Jump, in contrast, came in as a highly skilled player who had to work on her athleticism. 

Is that contrast at a fair one?

[81alum]

Shay is very athletic
Swain and Somfai seem very athletic based on video
However the game is also about putting the ball in the basket.  Ala Jump. Got to have both
I have always admired Tara for filling the roster. Some like Rappahahn wont play until later Some like Papi maybe never but then better than some with 11.

Good points, Bob.  Shay seems to me to be a highly gifted athlete who is still working on her skillset.  Hannah Jump, in contrast, came in as a highly skilled player who had to work on her athleticism. 

Is that contrast at a fair one?

[BillBradley]

Shay is very athletic
Swain and Somfai seem very athletic based on video
However the game is also about putting the ball in the basket.  Ala Jump. Got to have both
I have always admired Tara for filling the roster. Some like Rappahahn wont play until later Some like Papi maybe never but then better than some with 11.

100%. The best, of course, is if you can get it in one package (like Cam) so you aren't having to make tradeoffs with your lineup. It's easy - let's just get a bunch of Top-5 recruits and be done with it. :)

[BillBradley]

Shay is very athletic
Swain and Somfai seem very athletic based on video
However the game is also about putting the ball in the basket.  Ala Jump. Got to have both
I have always admired Tara for filling the roster. Some like Rappahahn wont play until later Some like Papi maybe never but then better than some with 11.

100%. The best, of course, is if you can get it in one package (like Cam) so you aren't having to make tradeoffs with your lineup. It's easy - let's just get a bunch of Top-5 recruits and be done with it. :)

[Hieronymus]

So this team wasn’t very tall - Nunu was undersized at 6’2” and Stevenson as back up is also the same height. The rest of the roster was average-ish, but probably still a bit small.

The bigger problem was quickness. You had 4 key players - Demetre, Bosgana, Stevenson and Heal - who to varying degrees struggled against quicker opponents. And nobody else was really a speed / quickness demon. Shay probably was the closest, but she wasn’t skilled or experienced enough. 

The end result is as BillBradley noted it’s hard for skill to beat athleticism. It was fun to watch women’s soccer make it to the college cup doing just that - but it’s really rare in college sports. So this team could beat weaker teams and some mediocre ones by being good at basketball. But against quicker mediocre teams and really anybody good or better, the offense just died and the perimeter defense collapsed. Without an ability to drive or get some back door stuff, opponents just sat on the perimeter shooters and nobody could get a shot off consistently. Similarly, on defense either they had to collapse into the paint to cover drives leaving the 3 open, or they got torched at the rim. And the lack of size meant there wasn’t a post game or good shot blocking to relieve some of the pressure.

Maybe a new offense helps going forward, but I do rot think the defense is fixable without more size and speed.

[Hieronymus]

So this team wasn’t very tall - Nunu was undersized at 6’2” and Stevenson as back up is also the same height. The rest of the roster was average-ish, but probably still a bit small.

The bigger problem was quickness. You had 4 key players - Demetre, Bosgana, Stevenson and Heal - who to varying degrees struggled against quicker opponents. And nobody else was really a speed / quickness demon. Shay probably was the closest, but she wasn’t skilled or experienced enough. 

The end result is as BillBradley noted it’s hard for skill to beat athleticism. It was fun to watch women’s soccer make it to the college cup doing just that - but it’s really rare in college sports. So this team could beat weaker teams and some mediocre ones by being good at basketball. But against quicker mediocre teams and really anybody good or better, the offense just died and the perimeter defense collapsed. Without an ability to drive or get some back door stuff, opponents just sat on the perimeter shooters and nobody could get a shot off consistently. Similarly, on defense either they had to collapse into the paint to cover drives leaving the 3 open, or they got torched at the rim. And the lack of size meant there wasn’t a post game or good shot blocking to relieve some of the pressure.

Maybe a new offense helps going forward, but I do rot think the defense is fixable without more size and speed.

[BosCard]

A major problem for us this year was offensive rebounding and help defender shot blocking.  Last year we had two great offensive rebounders in Brink and Iriafen.   This year, Demetre and Stevenson were far too slow to the ball and getting off the ground.  Also even if they got a rebound they would pull the ball out and we would have to work hard to manufacture a shot instead of getting the easy put-back layup.  And on defense, if an opposing guard beat her defender, Demetre and Stevenson were no threat to block the shot as a help defender.  Contrast this with Brink last year where she was a one woman last line of defense against anything near the basket.  Next year we have three incoming posts, all of whom have the potential to be good offensive rebounders and possibly who have the lateral speed to be good shot blocking help defenders.   And hopefully we see a freshman year to sophomore year jump from Umeh.

[BosCard]

A major problem for us this year was offensive rebounding and help defender shot blocking.  Last year we had two great offensive rebounders in Brink and Iriafen.   This year, Demetre and Stevenson were far too slow to the ball and getting off the ground.  Also even if they got a rebound they would pull the ball out and we would have to work hard to manufacture a shot instead of getting the easy put-back layup.  And on defense, if an opposing guard beat her defender, Demetre and Stevenson were no threat to block the shot as a help defender.  Contrast this with Brink last year where she was a one woman last line of defense against anything near the basket.  Next year we have three incoming posts, all of whom have the potential to be good offensive rebounders and possibly who have the lateral speed to be good shot blocking help defenders.   And hopefully we see a freshman year to sophomore year jump from Umeh.

[BostonCard]

Possibilities:  greater quickness and speed, greater tolerance for scoring in traffic, higher level of intensity on defense. 

Formally the components of athleticism are strength, speed, power, agility, endurance (anaerobic and aerobic capacity), mobility (flexibility), balance, coordination, and stability.  But usually when people talk about it in the context of basketball, they often focus on speed and agility, and to a lesser extent balance and coordination.

BC

[BostonCard]

Possibilities:  greater quickness and speed, greater tolerance for scoring in traffic, higher level of intensity on defense. 

Formally the components of athleticism are strength, speed, power, agility, endurance (anaerobic and aerobic capacity), mobility (flexibility), balance, coordination, and stability.  But usually when people talk about it in the context of basketball, they often focus on speed and agility, and to a lesser extent balance and coordination.

BC

[bl82]

Possibilities:  greater quickness and speed, greater tolerance for scoring in traffic, higher level of intensity on defense. 

Formally the components of athleticism are strength, speed, power, agility, endurance (anaerobic and aerobic capacity), mobility (flexibility), balance, coordination, and stability.  But usually when people talk about it in the context of basketball, they often focus on speed and agility, and to a lesser extent balance and coordination.

BC

Sadly, just adding the likes of Anthony Batson and Jaylen Thompson to your roster doesn't solve the problem, though these two still have an opportunity to develop.

[bl82]

Possibilities:  greater quickness and speed, greater tolerance for scoring in traffic, higher level of intensity on defense. 

Formally the components of athleticism are strength, speed, power, agility, endurance (anaerobic and aerobic capacity), mobility (flexibility), balance, coordination, and stability.  But usually when people talk about it in the context of basketball, they often focus on speed and agility, and to a lesser extent balance and coordination.

BC

Sadly, just adding the likes of Anthony Batson and Jaylen Thompson to your roster doesn't solve the problem, though these two still have an opportunity to develop.

[fullmetal]

Possibilities:  greater quickness and speed, greater tolerance for scoring in traffic, higher level of intensity on defense. 

Formally the components of athleticism are strength, speed, power, agility, endurance (anaerobic and aerobic capacity), mobility (flexibility), balance, coordination, and stability.  But usually when people talk about it in the context of basketball, they often focus on speed and agility, and to a lesser extent balance and coordination.

BC

Agreed.  Functionally, this means not getting beat on defense, not being called for moving screens, and also being able to consistently drive the lane on offense, creating your own shot.  Athletic players definitely need ball handling skills commensurate with their speed and acceleration.

[fullmetal]

Possibilities:  greater quickness and speed, greater tolerance for scoring in traffic, higher level of intensity on defense. 

Formally the components of athleticism are strength, speed, power, agility, endurance (anaerobic and aerobic capacity), mobility (flexibility), balance, coordination, and stability.  But usually when people talk about it in the context of basketball, they often focus on speed and agility, and to a lesser extent balance and coordination.

BC

Agreed.  Functionally, this means not getting beat on defense, not being called for moving screens, and also being able to consistently drive the lane on offense, creating your own shot.  Athletic players definitely need ball handling skills commensurate with their speed and acceleration.