08-16-2024, 06:21 AM
Atlanta series probably sealed their fate. 5 back in loss column and Braves own the tiebreaker. Braves will need to collapse. Giant probably need to do something like 26-12 to have a shot. Good luck with that.
Outside Topic SF Giants 2024
08-16-2024, 08:32 AM
(08-16-2024, 06:21 AM)lex24 Wrote: Atlanta series probably sealed their fate. 5 back in loss column and Braves own the tiebreaker. Braves will need to collapse. Giant probably need to do something like 26-12 to have a shot. Good luck with that.
Agreed on the 26-12. I just don't see it. The Giants are playing some really good teams.
Just to offer a sliver of hope...Braves are 4-6 over their last 10, even with the 3 of 4 they took from the Giants. Mets are 4-6 over the same span. Giants have five games against the A's and the White Sox, two poorly performing teams, then the Mariners (63-59) and Brewers 2x (69-52, leading the NL Central), Marlins (45-76), DBacks 2x & Padres 2x (both 69-53), Orioles (72-50), Royals (66-55), and closeout with the Cardinals (60-61).
I think we end up with 77 wins.
Audaces fortuna iuvat
(08-16-2024, 06:21 AM)lex24 Wrote: Atlanta series probably sealed their fate. 5 back in loss column and Braves own the tiebreaker. Braves will need to collapse. Giant probably need to do something like 26-12 to have a shot. Good luck with that.
Agreed on the 26-12. I just don't see it. The Giants are playing some really good teams.
Just to offer a sliver of hope...Braves are 4-6 over their last 10, even with the 3 of 4 they took from the Giants. Mets are 4-6 over the same span. Giants have five games against the A's and the White Sox, two poorly performing teams, then the Mariners (63-59) and Brewers 2x (69-52, leading the NL Central), Marlins (45-76), DBacks 2x & Padres 2x (both 69-53), Orioles (72-50), Royals (66-55), and closeout with the Cardinals (60-61).
I think we end up with 77 wins.
Audaces fortuna iuvat
08-19-2024, 10:22 AM
Blake Snell is definitely opting out of his SF contract next season. Not unhappy about that, tbh. Snell is 31-28 since he started with San Diego four years ago, five losing seasons out of nine, including this year (2-3). It's not that he's unworthy, it's just that he isn't worth what he'll ultimately get. Remember, he turned down 6 years, $150 mms. from the Yankees. Be curious to see what the Dodgers are willing to pay him.
Another San Francisco Giants Superstar Expected to Opt-Out of Contract (si.com)
Chapman is also likely to opt out of his contract with SF...the difference is that they are working on an extension. He has the third-best bWAR in baseball at 5.7, just behind Ohtani and Ketel Marte. He likes the West Coast and wants to stay out here. He has a .774 OPS, he has a good shot at 100 runs scored (he's at 83) and 25 home runs (he's at 19) and his defense has been extraordinary.
Matt Chapman claims he ‘wasn’t as comfortable in Toronto’ as he is with Giants (jaysjournal.com)
Another San Francisco Giants Superstar Expected to Opt-Out of Contract (si.com)
Chapman is also likely to opt out of his contract with SF...the difference is that they are working on an extension. He has the third-best bWAR in baseball at 5.7, just behind Ohtani and Ketel Marte. He likes the West Coast and wants to stay out here. He has a .774 OPS, he has a good shot at 100 runs scored (he's at 83) and 25 home runs (he's at 19) and his defense has been extraordinary.
Matt Chapman claims he ‘wasn’t as comfortable in Toronto’ as he is with Giants (jaysjournal.com)
Audaces fortuna iuvat
Blake Snell is definitely opting out of his SF contract next season. Not unhappy about that, tbh. Snell is 31-28 since he started with San Diego four years ago, five losing seasons out of nine, including this year (2-3). It's not that he's unworthy, it's just that he isn't worth what he'll ultimately get. Remember, he turned down 6 years, $150 mms. from the Yankees. Be curious to see what the Dodgers are willing to pay him.
Another San Francisco Giants Superstar Expected to Opt-Out of Contract (si.com)
Chapman is also likely to opt out of his contract with SF...the difference is that they are working on an extension. He has the third-best bWAR in baseball at 5.7, just behind Ohtani and Ketel Marte. He likes the West Coast and wants to stay out here. He has a .774 OPS, he has a good shot at 100 runs scored (he's at 83) and 25 home runs (he's at 19) and his defense has been extraordinary.
Matt Chapman claims he ‘wasn’t as comfortable in Toronto’ as he is with Giants (jaysjournal.com)
Another San Francisco Giants Superstar Expected to Opt-Out of Contract (si.com)
Chapman is also likely to opt out of his contract with SF...the difference is that they are working on an extension. He has the third-best bWAR in baseball at 5.7, just behind Ohtani and Ketel Marte. He likes the West Coast and wants to stay out here. He has a .774 OPS, he has a good shot at 100 runs scored (he's at 83) and 25 home runs (he's at 19) and his defense has been extraordinary.
Matt Chapman claims he ‘wasn’t as comfortable in Toronto’ as he is with Giants (jaysjournal.com)
Audaces fortuna iuvat
08-19-2024, 10:29 AM
Snell has been outstanding. His record reflects the Giants inability to score not his pitching
Not signing Snell or chapman means another long wasted season
Not signing Snell or chapman means another long wasted season
(08-19-2024, 10:29 AM)BobK Wrote: Snell has been outstanding. His record reflects the Giants inability to score not his pitching
Not signing Snell or chapman means another long wasted season
I agree, Bob. Snell is a “must sign” this off season. Yesterday, he established a new Giants franchise record with a total of 55 K’s over a period of five consecutive starts. Considering some of names he surpassed (Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal, Lincecum, Bumgarner), that is pretty impressive.
I must admit that I was dead wrong before the season when I advocated passing on him.
Signing Snell and Chapman would be a great way to start the off-season.
Hey Mick - Matt Cain's career record was 104-118. W-L records mean little in this era.
(08-19-2024, 10:29 AM)BobK Wrote: Snell has been outstanding. His record reflects the Giants inability to score not his pitching
Not signing Snell or chapman means another long wasted season
I agree, Bob. Snell is a “must sign” this off season. Yesterday, he established a new Giants franchise record with a total of 55 K’s over a period of five consecutive starts. Considering some of names he surpassed (Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal, Lincecum, Bumgarner), that is pretty impressive.
I must admit that I was dead wrong before the season when I advocated passing on him.
Signing Snell and Chapman would be a great way to start the off-season.
Hey Mick - Matt Cain's career record was 104-118. W-L records mean little in this era.
08-19-2024, 03:55 PM
(08-19-2024, 02:36 PM)Giants Wrote:(08-19-2024, 10:29 AM)BobK Wrote: Snell has been outstanding. His record reflects the Giants inability to score not his pitching
Not signing Snell or chapman means another long wasted season
I agree, Bob. Snell is a “must sign” this off season. Yesterday, he established a new Giants franchise record with a total of 55 K’s over a period of five consecutive starts. Considering some of names he surpassed (Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal, Lincecum, Bumgarner), that is pretty impressive.
I must admit that I was dead wrong before the season when I advocated passing on him.
Signing Snell and Chapman would be a great way to start the off-season.
Hey Mick - Matt Cain's career record was 104-118. W-L records mean little in this era.
Would love to sign Snell and Chapman if we can. If it has to be one, I'll take Chapman.
Cain's heyday was 2009-2012. He closed his career with five straight losing seasons, 19-40 and a 4.82 ERA. I prefer to remember him during his 2009-2012 seasons when he was on three all star teams, and was 55-35 with a 2.93 ERA.
Audaces fortuna iuvat
(08-19-2024, 02:36 PM)Giants Wrote:(08-19-2024, 10:29 AM)BobK Wrote: Snell has been outstanding. His record reflects the Giants inability to score not his pitching
Not signing Snell or chapman means another long wasted season
I agree, Bob. Snell is a “must sign” this off season. Yesterday, he established a new Giants franchise record with a total of 55 K’s over a period of five consecutive starts. Considering some of names he surpassed (Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal, Lincecum, Bumgarner), that is pretty impressive.
I must admit that I was dead wrong before the season when I advocated passing on him.
Signing Snell and Chapman would be a great way to start the off-season.
Hey Mick - Matt Cain's career record was 104-118. W-L records mean little in this era.
Would love to sign Snell and Chapman if we can. If it has to be one, I'll take Chapman.
Cain's heyday was 2009-2012. He closed his career with five straight losing seasons, 19-40 and a 4.82 ERA. I prefer to remember him during his 2009-2012 seasons when he was on three all star teams, and was 55-35 with a 2.93 ERA.
Audaces fortuna iuvat
08-21-2024, 03:29 PM
The Giants lost, 6-2 at home, to the last-place-of-all-time White Sox. Stanford's Erik Miller gave up three earned runs in 2/3rds of an inning, allowing five baserunners. Logan Webb gave up two runs in eight innings pitched. Bivens gave up an unearned run.
Outfield play was comical today. McCray won't make anyone forget Garry Maddox...or Angel Pagan in CF. 28,375 at the old ballyard.
The Giants have 11 series left, 10 of which come against teams with a winning record. Don't think we'll see 26-12...maybe 12-26.
Outfield play was comical today. McCray won't make anyone forget Garry Maddox...or Angel Pagan in CF. 28,375 at the old ballyard.
The Giants have 11 series left, 10 of which come against teams with a winning record. Don't think we'll see 26-12...maybe 12-26.
Audaces fortuna iuvat
The Giants lost, 6-2 at home, to the last-place-of-all-time White Sox. Stanford's Erik Miller gave up three earned runs in 2/3rds of an inning, allowing five baserunners. Logan Webb gave up two runs in eight innings pitched. Bivens gave up an unearned run.
Outfield play was comical today. McCray won't make anyone forget Garry Maddox...or Angel Pagan in CF. 28,375 at the old ballyard.
The Giants have 11 series left, 10 of which come against teams with a winning record. Don't think we'll see 26-12...maybe 12-26.
Outfield play was comical today. McCray won't make anyone forget Garry Maddox...or Angel Pagan in CF. 28,375 at the old ballyard.
The Giants have 11 series left, 10 of which come against teams with a winning record. Don't think we'll see 26-12...maybe 12-26.
Audaces fortuna iuvat
The Giants lost three of four to the Dodgers dropping their record to 49-55, six games under .500, a season low.
Since then, the Giants are 16-9 against the Rockies, A's, Reds, Tigers, Nationals, Braves and White Sox.
Now, the Giants have the toughest schedule remaining in MLB. Their remaining opponents are Seattle, Milwaukee, Miami, D'Backs, Padres, Orioles, Royals and Cardinals. The Giants have a .415 record against >.500 MLB teams which projects to a 14-19 record in the last 33 games, pointing to a 79-83 final record.
Since then, the Giants are 16-9 against the Rockies, A's, Reds, Tigers, Nationals, Braves and White Sox.
Now, the Giants have the toughest schedule remaining in MLB. Their remaining opponents are Seattle, Milwaukee, Miami, D'Backs, Padres, Orioles, Royals and Cardinals. The Giants have a .415 record against >.500 MLB teams which projects to a 14-19 record in the last 33 games, pointing to a 79-83 final record.
Audaces fortuna iuvat
The Giants lost three of four to the Dodgers dropping their record to 49-55, six games under .500, a season low.
Since then, the Giants are 16-9 against the Rockies, A's, Reds, Tigers, Nationals, Braves and White Sox.
Now, the Giants have the toughest schedule remaining in MLB. Their remaining opponents are Seattle, Milwaukee, Miami, D'Backs, Padres, Orioles, Royals and Cardinals. The Giants have a .415 record against >.500 MLB teams which projects to a 14-19 record in the last 33 games, pointing to a 79-83 final record.
Since then, the Giants are 16-9 against the Rockies, A's, Reds, Tigers, Nationals, Braves and White Sox.
Now, the Giants have the toughest schedule remaining in MLB. Their remaining opponents are Seattle, Milwaukee, Miami, D'Backs, Padres, Orioles, Royals and Cardinals. The Giants have a .415 record against >.500 MLB teams which projects to a 14-19 record in the last 33 games, pointing to a 79-83 final record.
Audaces fortuna iuvat
08-22-2024, 04:29 PM
(08-22-2024, 01:02 PM)Mick Wrote: The Giants lost three of four to the Dodgers dropping their record to 49-55, six games under .500, a season low.
Since then, the Giants are 16-9 against the Rockies, A's, Reds, Tigers, Nationals, Braves and White Sox.
Now, the Giants have the toughest schedule remaining in MLB. Their remaining opponents are Seattle, Milwaukee, Miami, D'Backs, Padres, Orioles, Royals and Cardinals. The Giants have a .415 record against >.500 MLB teams which projects to a 14-19 record in the last 33 games, pointing to a 79-83 final record.
PAsportsfan had SF at 79. Right now, PA is on track to be the closest to the actual total in our preseason picks.
(08-22-2024, 01:02 PM)Mick Wrote: The Giants lost three of four to the Dodgers dropping their record to 49-55, six games under .500, a season low.
Since then, the Giants are 16-9 against the Rockies, A's, Reds, Tigers, Nationals, Braves and White Sox.
Now, the Giants have the toughest schedule remaining in MLB. Their remaining opponents are Seattle, Milwaukee, Miami, D'Backs, Padres, Orioles, Royals and Cardinals. The Giants have a .415 record against >.500 MLB teams which projects to a 14-19 record in the last 33 games, pointing to a 79-83 final record.
PAsportsfan had SF at 79. Right now, PA is on track to be the closest to the actual total in our preseason picks.
08-23-2024, 05:53 AM
(08-22-2024, 08:44 PM)old spanish trail Wrote:(08-20-2024, 02:53 PM)Giants Wrote: Brandon Crawford released by St. Louis.
The Reds traded Slater to the Orioles and he hit a two run homer yesterday in a game against the Mets to help the Giants. However, the Orioles lost.
He has nine hits, including an HR and two doubles in 23 ABs for Baltimore. .391/.500/.609/1.109. That's balanced by his .111/.190/.111/.302 at Cincinnati. For the year, including San Francisco, he's at .200/.330/.244/.575.
Audaces fortuna iuvat
(08-22-2024, 08:44 PM)old spanish trail Wrote:(08-20-2024, 02:53 PM)Giants Wrote: Brandon Crawford released by St. Louis.
The Reds traded Slater to the Orioles and he hit a two run homer yesterday in a game against the Mets to help the Giants. However, the Orioles lost.
He has nine hits, including an HR and two doubles in 23 ABs for Baltimore. .391/.500/.609/1.109. That's balanced by his .111/.190/.111/.302 at Cincinnati. For the year, including San Francisco, he's at .200/.330/.244/.575.
Audaces fortuna iuvat
Crawford released. I wish he retired after last season.
Didn’t see the game. McCray is supposed to be an elite defensive CF. That’s his ticket. Certainly not his bat.
(08-21-2024, 03:29 PM)Mick Wrote: The Giants lost, 6-2 at home, to the last-place-of-all-time White Sox. Stanford's Erik Miller gave up three earned runs in 2/3rds of an inning, allowing five baserunners. Logan Webb gave up two runs in eight innings pitched. Bivens gave up an unearned run.
Outfield play was comical today. McCray won't make anyone forget Garry Maddox...or Angel Pagan in CF. 28,375 at the old ballyard.
The Giants have 11 series left, 10 of which come against teams with a winning record. Don't think we'll see 26-12...maybe 12-26.
Didn’t see the game. McCray is supposed to be an elite defensive CF. That’s his ticket. Certainly not his bat.
Crawford released. I wish he retired after last season.
Didn’t see the game. McCray is supposed to be an elite defensive CF. That’s his ticket. Certainly not his bat.
(08-21-2024, 03:29 PM)Mick Wrote: The Giants lost, 6-2 at home, to the last-place-of-all-time White Sox. Stanford's Erik Miller gave up three earned runs in 2/3rds of an inning, allowing five baserunners. Logan Webb gave up two runs in eight innings pitched. Bivens gave up an unearned run.
Outfield play was comical today. McCray won't make anyone forget Garry Maddox...or Angel Pagan in CF. 28,375 at the old ballyard.
The Giants have 11 series left, 10 of which come against teams with a winning record. Don't think we'll see 26-12...maybe 12-26.
Didn’t see the game. McCray is supposed to be an elite defensive CF. That’s his ticket. Certainly not his bat.
(08-23-2024, 10:42 AM)lex24 Wrote: Crawford released. I wish he retired after last season.
(08-21-2024, 03:29 PM)Mick Wrote: The Giants lost, 6-2 at home, to the last-place-of-all-time White Sox. Stanford's Erik Miller gave up three earned runs in 2/3rds of an inning, allowing five baserunners. Logan Webb gave up two runs in eight innings pitched. Bivens gave up an unearned run.
Outfield play was comical today. McCray won't make anyone forget Garry Maddox...or Angel Pagan in CF. 28,375 at the old ballyard.
The Giants have 11 series left, 10 of which come against teams with a winning record. Don't think we'll see 26-12...maybe 12-26.
Didn’t see the game. McCray is supposed to be an elite defensive CF. That’s his ticket. Certainly not his bat.
My take is that he has a knack for turning routine fly balls into spectacular catches. Doesn't take great routes, gets turned around, late jumps, etc.
Based on a small sample, his fielding percentage is .947, he has a -8 Rtot, and his range factor is slightly below average for center fielders. I had a ton more confidence in Lee and Matos than I do in McCray.
Audaces fortuna iuvat
(08-23-2024, 10:42 AM)lex24 Wrote: Crawford released. I wish he retired after last season.
(08-21-2024, 03:29 PM)Mick Wrote: The Giants lost, 6-2 at home, to the last-place-of-all-time White Sox. Stanford's Erik Miller gave up three earned runs in 2/3rds of an inning, allowing five baserunners. Logan Webb gave up two runs in eight innings pitched. Bivens gave up an unearned run.
Outfield play was comical today. McCray won't make anyone forget Garry Maddox...or Angel Pagan in CF. 28,375 at the old ballyard.
The Giants have 11 series left, 10 of which come against teams with a winning record. Don't think we'll see 26-12...maybe 12-26.
Didn’t see the game. McCray is supposed to be an elite defensive CF. That’s his ticket. Certainly not his bat.
My take is that he has a knack for turning routine fly balls into spectacular catches. Doesn't take great routes, gets turned around, late jumps, etc.
Based on a small sample, his fielding percentage is .947, he has a -8 Rtot, and his range factor is slightly below average for center fielders. I had a ton more confidence in Lee and Matos than I do in McCray.
Audaces fortuna iuvat
08-23-2024, 01:46 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-23-2024, 01:46 PM by cardcrimson.)
(08-23-2024, 12:53 PM)Mick Wrote:(08-23-2024, 10:42 AM)lex24 Wrote: Crawford released. I wish he retired after last season.
(08-21-2024, 03:29 PM)Mick Wrote: The Giants lost, 6-2 at home, to the last-place-of-all-time White Sox. Stanford's Erik Miller gave up three earned runs in 2/3rds of an inning, allowing five baserunners. Logan Webb gave up two runs in eight innings pitched. Bivens gave up an unearned run.
Outfield play was comical today. McCray won't make anyone forget Garry Maddox...or Angel Pagan in CF. 28,375 at the old ballyard.
The Giants have 11 series left, 10 of which come against teams with a winning record. Don't think we'll see 26-12...maybe 12-26.
Didn’t see the game. McCray is supposed to be an elite defensive CF. That’s his ticket. Certainly not his bat.
My take is that he has a knack for turning routine fly balls into spectacular catches. Doesn't take great routes, gets turned around, late jumps, etc.
Based on a small sample, his fielding percentage is .947, he has a -8 Rtot, and his range factor is slightly below average for center fielders. I had a ton more confidence in Lee and Matos than I do in McCray.
Had the game on in the background the other day. Mike Krukow was certainly singing his praises, specifically noting that the routes he takes are perfect and that he gets quick jumps on the ball. . . .
Free Phogge!!!! And no, crimson doesn't refer to the Tide.
(This post was last modified: 08-23-2024, 01:46 PM by cardcrimson.)
(08-23-2024, 12:53 PM)Mick Wrote:(08-23-2024, 10:42 AM)lex24 Wrote: Crawford released. I wish he retired after last season.
(08-21-2024, 03:29 PM)Mick Wrote: The Giants lost, 6-2 at home, to the last-place-of-all-time White Sox. Stanford's Erik Miller gave up three earned runs in 2/3rds of an inning, allowing five baserunners. Logan Webb gave up two runs in eight innings pitched. Bivens gave up an unearned run.
Outfield play was comical today. McCray won't make anyone forget Garry Maddox...or Angel Pagan in CF. 28,375 at the old ballyard.
The Giants have 11 series left, 10 of which come against teams with a winning record. Don't think we'll see 26-12...maybe 12-26.
Didn’t see the game. McCray is supposed to be an elite defensive CF. That’s his ticket. Certainly not his bat.
My take is that he has a knack for turning routine fly balls into spectacular catches. Doesn't take great routes, gets turned around, late jumps, etc.
Based on a small sample, his fielding percentage is .947, he has a -8 Rtot, and his range factor is slightly below average for center fielders. I had a ton more confidence in Lee and Matos than I do in McCray.
Had the game on in the background the other day. Mike Krukow was certainly singing his praises, specifically noting that the routes he takes are perfect and that he gets quick jumps on the ball. . . .
Free Phogge!!!! And no, crimson doesn't refer to the Tide.
08-23-2024, 10:25 PM
Well that sucked.
Meanwhile, Reetz DFA’d and Knapp signed to a one-year deal. I guess no one expects Murphy back this season.
Meanwhile, Reetz DFA’d and Knapp signed to a one-year deal. I guess no one expects Murphy back this season.
08-24-2024, 06:12 AM
Love it. Let’s leave Rogers in see if he can give up 6 straight hits. Ahh he did it. Melvin asleep I guess
(08-23-2024, 10:25 PM)triangle2 Wrote: Well that sucked.
Meanwhile, Reetz DFA’d and Knapp signed to a one-year deal. I guess no one expects Murphy back this season.
Just for grins, checked out Joey Bart's numbers the other day. .277/.350/.508/.858. Crushing it, 139+ OPS. 12 HRs in 214 ABs. Just 55 strikeouts, 17 walks, 5 HBP. He's throwing out 23% of baserunners (league average is 21%), 2 passed balls in 52 games as catcher and he has 2 errors in 390 chances (.995), has a +1 Rtot. He's their go-to DH. And his comp is $770k.
Bailey's a much better catcher, no question, I'm glad he's starting. But Murphy, Casali and Reetz can't hold a candle to Bart. Wish he was still on the team, especially given Bailey's now-typical second-half breakdown.
Bailey's 1st half stats: .287/.343/.454/.797
Bailey's 2nd half stats: .163/.223/.216/.439
Bailey's done much better in the field, best in the league at framing and blocking, cut his errors down from 13 to 3, passed balls are basically the same at 7 vs. 8. 30% caught stealing, 5th in the NL. BTW, Casali is tied for the league lead in errors by catcher with 7. Grandal, ahead of Bart at Pitt, is second with six errors. Bailey 2nd in catcher DPs with 5.
Audaces fortuna iuvat
(08-23-2024, 10:25 PM)triangle2 Wrote: Well that sucked.
Meanwhile, Reetz DFA’d and Knapp signed to a one-year deal. I guess no one expects Murphy back this season.
Just for grins, checked out Joey Bart's numbers the other day. .277/.350/.508/.858. Crushing it, 139+ OPS. 12 HRs in 214 ABs. Just 55 strikeouts, 17 walks, 5 HBP. He's throwing out 23% of baserunners (league average is 21%), 2 passed balls in 52 games as catcher and he has 2 errors in 390 chances (.995), has a +1 Rtot. He's their go-to DH. And his comp is $770k.
Bailey's a much better catcher, no question, I'm glad he's starting. But Murphy, Casali and Reetz can't hold a candle to Bart. Wish he was still on the team, especially given Bailey's now-typical second-half breakdown.
Bailey's 1st half stats: .287/.343/.454/.797
Bailey's 2nd half stats: .163/.223/.216/.439
Bailey's done much better in the field, best in the league at framing and blocking, cut his errors down from 13 to 3, passed balls are basically the same at 7 vs. 8. 30% caught stealing, 5th in the NL. BTW, Casali is tied for the league lead in errors by catcher with 7. Grandal, ahead of Bart at Pitt, is second with six errors. Bailey 2nd in catcher DPs with 5.
Audaces fortuna iuvat
08-24-2024, 10:11 AM
Anyone understand why Bart isn't the #1 catcher in Philly? Do the pitchers just love Grandal?
In 1938 Neville Chamberlain declared "Peace in our time", Superman first appeared in Action Comics, Seabiscuit beat War Admiral ....... and C.a.l last won the Rose Bowl.
« Next Oldest | Next Newest »