[Baez87]

1706167204[/url]']

1706163330[/url]']
There was a destructive undercurrent in last year’s team. It was evident in the many times that Haley came out of a game and never shook hands with Tara. She was the only one who didn’t connect with her coach in this way. In one huddle when Tara was preparing her team for the last quarter’s final action, Haley stood behind Tara and held both hands with thumb to forefinger touching over her eyes as if they were goggles and made fun of Tara. Tara was unaware of this. Haley wasn’t listening and she didn’t stop until Coach Brittney took her by the hand and pulled her away from the huddle. 
At the end of the season, Haley skipped out on the Banquet and caught Tara totally by surprise. One can only guess what other shenanigans might have been pulled during those four years or what teammate’s mothers might have shared. Connect the dots to three players defecting at the end of the year, and then this self-serving “interview.” One can conjure up a pretty negative scenario. To say “one bad apple can spoil a bunch” would be an apt description.

But look what positives can accomplish! Look at this year’s team! Look at the connection they have with each other and with their coach! What a turn around! We are so fortunate to have unselfish, committed, and adult players this year locking arms in the best display of sportsmanship, esprit de corps, and team chemistry! They don’t have the numbers and they don’t have two #1 recruits, but they have heart! They are a team in the true sense of the word, and I love them dearly for it!

Remind me. Who was the MVP of the 2021 NCAA Final Four…?

Haley Jones was the MVP — my wife and I attended that game and enjoyed every minute of it. That team was Kiana’s team and Haley was instrumental to the win. I’m not sure if that went to her head or what may have happened to change her attitude. But I did see the events that I described above that may have been detrimental to the overall team cohesion. And some of the content of her recent interview of Betts did confirm that they were disruptive to the team moral. 
It’s sad to see that happen and it’s great to see a team turn around so quickly as this team has! It’s a tribute to the players and the coaches!

[Baez87]

1706167204[/url]']

1706163330[/url]']
There was a destructive undercurrent in last year’s team. It was evident in the many times that Haley came out of a game and never shook hands with Tara. She was the only one who didn’t connect with her coach in this way. In one huddle when Tara was preparing her team for the last quarter’s final action, Haley stood behind Tara and held both hands with thumb to forefinger touching over her eyes as if they were goggles and made fun of Tara. Tara was unaware of this. Haley wasn’t listening and she didn’t stop until Coach Brittney took her by the hand and pulled her away from the huddle. 
At the end of the season, Haley skipped out on the Banquet and caught Tara totally by surprise. One can only guess what other shenanigans might have been pulled during those four years or what teammate’s mothers might have shared. Connect the dots to three players defecting at the end of the year, and then this self-serving “interview.” One can conjure up a pretty negative scenario. To say “one bad apple can spoil a bunch” would be an apt description.

But look what positives can accomplish! Look at this year’s team! Look at the connection they have with each other and with their coach! What a turn around! We are so fortunate to have unselfish, committed, and adult players this year locking arms in the best display of sportsmanship, esprit de corps, and team chemistry! They don’t have the numbers and they don’t have two #1 recruits, but they have heart! They are a team in the true sense of the word, and I love them dearly for it!

Remind me. Who was the MVP of the 2021 NCAA Final Four…?

Haley Jones was the MVP — my wife and I attended that game and enjoyed every minute of it. That team was Kiana’s team and Haley was instrumental to the win. I’m not sure if that went to her head or what may have happened to change her attitude. But I did see the events that I described above that may have been detrimental to the overall team cohesion. And some of the content of her recent interview of Betts did confirm that they were disruptive to the team moral. 
It’s sad to see that happen and it’s great to see a team turn around so quickly as this team has! It’s a tribute to the players and the coaches!

[Card10Fan]

Many of you have hit the nail on the head about Jones. I think her disaffection last year as a senior and upperclassman leader permeated to some of the younger players within the program leading to jealousy, poor camaraderie, and the eventual transfers departing. Neither Jones nor Prechtel were at Tara's record breaking game last weekend. Fran was there. I didn't even see a congratulations or social media shout out from Jones. Tara did not attend Haley's draft night with her. 

I've never felt like Haley has been as serious about basketball as Tara is. It wouldn't surprise me if her pro career is very short and she transitions to broadcasting or something entirely different. Where Cam wants to be a pro and will put in the work to be pro ready. Like at Cam's growth as a player versus Haley and her added skill sets from freshman year. 

But as a Stanford WBB fan, we would not have won our Natty without Haley Jones. She made an incredible impact on our program and we should be grateful for that. She stayed 4 years, graduated, and I enjoyed watching her play.

[Card10Fan]

Many of you have hit the nail on the head about Jones. I think her disaffection last year as a senior and upperclassman leader permeated to some of the younger players within the program leading to jealousy, poor camaraderie, and the eventual transfers departing. Neither Jones nor Prechtel were at Tara's record breaking game last weekend. Fran was there. I didn't even see a congratulations or social media shout out from Jones. Tara did not attend Haley's draft night with her. 

I've never felt like Haley has been as serious about basketball as Tara is. It wouldn't surprise me if her pro career is very short and she transitions to broadcasting or something entirely different. Where Cam wants to be a pro and will put in the work to be pro ready. Like at Cam's growth as a player versus Haley and her added skill sets from freshman year. 

But as a Stanford WBB fan, we would not have won our Natty without Haley Jones. She made an incredible impact on our program and we should be grateful for that. She stayed 4 years, graduated, and I enjoyed watching her play.

[jonnyss]

Haley stood behind Tara and held both hands with thumb to forefinger touching over her eyes as if they were goggles and made fun of Tara. 

i believe the gesture you are referencing is celebratory, not mocking. it means look at that 3-point shot! or, more generally, look at that great play! steph curry uses it often.

https://www.vrfitnessinsider.com/what-st...ro-sports/

(sorry, i can't figure out how to post the photo rather than the link)

thank you for mentioning tara not attending haley's draft night. isn't that on remembers-everyone's-birthday tara rather than on haley? i noticed that the video of the history of stanford's teams left out haley from the section on the recent national championship. is that on haley? tara assigned haley to run the point at least 50% of the time last year when we had no experienced point guard. that led to many critiques of haley. imo haley did what tara asked even though it ruined haley's game.

tara is now supportive of nil, but i recall her being cool and skeptical when nil was just starting out. haley made the first forays into nil, and i can easily imagine tara being critical at first.

blaming transfers out on haley? i don't think so! there was a logjam at the post - betts still wouldn't start at stanford this year. the higher-ranked indya nivar backed up lepolo.

blaming our poor play last year on haley? i don't think so! with the departure of kiana, anna wilson, and the hull twins, we had 5 top posts but no star point guard and no star wings.

p.s. thanks for posting haley's interview of lauren betts. they have a great time talking. both are exuberant and delightful. they clearly enjoy each other. betts calls haley a "10 out of 10" and references their close friendship over many years. betts says it was hard to leave stanford because she loved the players, but she had to because she "did not feel supported." given the context, she appears to be saying not supported by the staff.

haley is an unusual interviewer. she makes no attempt to be polished like ros and chiney. she is in the let-your-personality-show school, like richard sherman and charles Barkley - except playfully cheerful rather than playfully challenging. i like her style very much. it's a wonderful interview. i encourage everyone to watch.

[jonnyss]

Haley stood behind Tara and held both hands with thumb to forefinger touching over her eyes as if they were goggles and made fun of Tara. 

i believe the gesture you are referencing is celebratory, not mocking. it means look at that 3-point shot! or, more generally, look at that great play! steph curry uses it often.

https://www.vrfitnessinsider.com/what-st...ro-sports/

(sorry, i can't figure out how to post the photo rather than the link)

thank you for mentioning tara not attending haley's draft night. isn't that on remembers-everyone's-birthday tara rather than on haley? i noticed that the video of the history of stanford's teams left out haley from the section on the recent national championship. is that on haley? tara assigned haley to run the point at least 50% of the time last year when we had no experienced point guard. that led to many critiques of haley. imo haley did what tara asked even though it ruined haley's game.

tara is now supportive of nil, but i recall her being cool and skeptical when nil was just starting out. haley made the first forays into nil, and i can easily imagine tara being critical at first.

blaming transfers out on haley? i don't think so! there was a logjam at the post - betts still wouldn't start at stanford this year. the higher-ranked indya nivar backed up lepolo.

blaming our poor play last year on haley? i don't think so! with the departure of kiana, anna wilson, and the hull twins, we had 5 top posts but no star point guard and no star wings.

p.s. thanks for posting haley's interview of lauren betts. they have a great time talking. both are exuberant and delightful. they clearly enjoy each other. betts calls haley a "10 out of 10" and references their close friendship over many years. betts says it was hard to leave stanford because she loved the players, but she had to because she "did not feel supported." given the context, she appears to be saying not supported by the staff.

haley is an unusual interviewer. she makes no attempt to be polished like ros and chiney. she is in the let-your-personality-show school, like richard sherman and charles Barkley - except playfully cheerful rather than playfully challenging. i like her style very much. it's a wonderful interview. i encourage everyone to watch.

[81alum]

Haley stood behind Tara and held both hands with thumb to forefinger touching over her eyes as if they were goggles and made fun of Tara. 

i believe the gesture you are referencing is celebratory, not mocking. it means look at that 3-point shot! or, more generally, look at that great play! steph curry uses it often.

https://www.vrfitnessinsider.com/what-st...ro-sports/

(sorry, i can't figure out how to post the photo rather than the link)

thank you for mentioning tara not attending haley's draft night. isn't that on remembers-everyone's-birthday tara rather than on haley? i noticed that the video of the history of stanford's teams left out haley from the section on the recent national championship. is that on haley? tara assigned haley to run the point at least 50% of the time last year when we had no experienced point guard. that led to many critiques of haley. imo haley did what tara asked even though it ruined haley's game.

tara is now supportive of nil, but i recall her being cool and skeptical when nil was just starting out. haley made the first forays into nil, and i can easily imagine tara being critical at first.

blaming transfers out on haley? i don't think so! there was a logjam at the post - betts still wouldn't start at stanford this year. the higher-ranked indya nivar backed up lepolo.

blaming our poor play last year on haley? i don't think so! with the departure of kiana, anna wilson, and the hull twins, we had 5 top posts but no star point guard and no star wings.

p.s. thanks for posting haley's interview of lauren betts. it's a wonderful interview. they have a great time talking. both are exuberant and delightful. they clearly enjoy each other. betts calls haley a "10 out of 10" and references their close friendship over the years. betts says it was hard to leave because she loved the players, but she had to because she "did not feel supported." given the context, she appears to be saying not supported by the staff.

There comes a point where our speculation may be counterproductive.  While we fans might like to know the inside story, we are not entitled to know it, and it might or might not be good for the program if it were publicly known.   Here are the salient points, in my opinion:

1. Not everyone fits with the personality of every coach, no matter how accomplished that coach or that athlete might be.  And not every freshman fits Stanford, believe it or not.  Some, like Alyssa Jerome, so fall in love with the culture of the program and the sisterhood they stay for 5 years even with almost no playing time.  Some, like Taylor Rooks, find out their freshman year that it is not a match for them.  They could be homesick, they could find Stanford doesn't fit their academic plans, they could fall out of love with the level of basketball competition.  In the pre-portal days, we never heard about these stories, but they were always there.  Student athletes just had to "tough it out" or suffer if they made a decision that was not right for them.  Now we know about every one.

2. Betts was very careful not to disparage Stanford in the interview, although it is clear that in some way or another she did not feel supported.  I think many of us had the sense that for one reason or another--and speculation has run a little too rampant--the team chemistry last year was not what it should be.  It would have been a rough atmosphere for a freshman to step into.  It sure seems better this year.

3. Tara made a comment in the post-celebration interview sticks in my mind.  She said something like "Nobody is perfect.  I've said some things to some players I regret.  I've not been the coach I needed to be at certain times."   I wonder if she had specific incidents in mind.  One thing is certain--she has in fact changed her approach this year.  She changed her coaching staff, and she has infused a much more positive philosophy.  Tara's effort to change (successfully, it seems) actually confirms in my mind that something did need to change, and it started with her.  That is why she has lasted--she can be self-critical and correct and adapt.

[81alum]

Haley stood behind Tara and held both hands with thumb to forefinger touching over her eyes as if they were goggles and made fun of Tara. 

i believe the gesture you are referencing is celebratory, not mocking. it means look at that 3-point shot! or, more generally, look at that great play! steph curry uses it often.

https://www.vrfitnessinsider.com/what-st...ro-sports/

(sorry, i can't figure out how to post the photo rather than the link)

thank you for mentioning tara not attending haley's draft night. isn't that on remembers-everyone's-birthday tara rather than on haley? i noticed that the video of the history of stanford's teams left out haley from the section on the recent national championship. is that on haley? tara assigned haley to run the point at least 50% of the time last year when we had no experienced point guard. that led to many critiques of haley. imo haley did what tara asked even though it ruined haley's game.

tara is now supportive of nil, but i recall her being cool and skeptical when nil was just starting out. haley made the first forays into nil, and i can easily imagine tara being critical at first.

blaming transfers out on haley? i don't think so! there was a logjam at the post - betts still wouldn't start at stanford this year. the higher-ranked indya nivar backed up lepolo.

blaming our poor play last year on haley? i don't think so! with the departure of kiana, anna wilson, and the hull twins, we had 5 top posts but no star point guard and no star wings.

p.s. thanks for posting haley's interview of lauren betts. it's a wonderful interview. they have a great time talking. both are exuberant and delightful. they clearly enjoy each other. betts calls haley a "10 out of 10" and references their close friendship over the years. betts says it was hard to leave because she loved the players, but she had to because she "did not feel supported." given the context, she appears to be saying not supported by the staff.

There comes a point where our speculation may be counterproductive.  While we fans might like to know the inside story, we are not entitled to know it, and it might or might not be good for the program if it were publicly known.   Here are the salient points, in my opinion:

1. Not everyone fits with the personality of every coach, no matter how accomplished that coach or that athlete might be.  And not every freshman fits Stanford, believe it or not.  Some, like Alyssa Jerome, so fall in love with the culture of the program and the sisterhood they stay for 5 years even with almost no playing time.  Some, like Taylor Rooks, find out their freshman year that it is not a match for them.  They could be homesick, they could find Stanford doesn't fit their academic plans, they could fall out of love with the level of basketball competition.  In the pre-portal days, we never heard about these stories, but they were always there.  Student athletes just had to "tough it out" or suffer if they made a decision that was not right for them.  Now we know about every one.

2. Betts was very careful not to disparage Stanford in the interview, although it is clear that in some way or another she did not feel supported.  I think many of us had the sense that for one reason or another--and speculation has run a little too rampant--the team chemistry last year was not what it should be.  It would have been a rough atmosphere for a freshman to step into.  It sure seems better this year.

3. Tara made a comment in the post-celebration interview sticks in my mind.  She said something like "Nobody is perfect.  I've said some things to some players I regret.  I've not been the coach I needed to be at certain times."   I wonder if she had specific incidents in mind.  One thing is certain--she has in fact changed her approach this year.  She changed her coaching staff, and she has infused a much more positive philosophy.  Tara's effort to change (successfully, it seems) actually confirms in my mind that something did need to change, and it started with her.  That is why she has lasted--she can be self-critical and correct and adapt.

[ljw63]

Haley stood behind Tara and held both hands with thumb to forefinger touching over her eyes as if they were goggles and made fun of Tara. 

i believe the gesture you are referencing is celebratory, not mocking. it means look at that 3-point shot! or, more generally, look at that great play! steph curry uses it often.

https://www.vrfitnessinsider.com/what-st...ro-sports/

(sorry, i can't figure out how to post the photo rather than the link)

thank you for mentioning tara not attending haley's draft night. isn't that on remembers-everyone's-birthday tara rather than on haley? i noticed that the video of the history of stanford's teams left out haley from the section on the recent national championship. is that on haley? tara assigned haley to run the point at least 50% of the time last year when we had no experienced point guard. that led to many critiques of haley. imo haley did what tara asked even though it ruined haley's game.

tara is now supportive of nil, but i recall her being cool and skeptical when nil was just starting out. haley made the first forays into nil, and i can easily imagine tara being critical at first.

blaming transfers out on haley? i don't think so! there was a logjam at the post - betts still wouldn't start at stanford this year. the higher-ranked indya nivar backed up lepolo.

blaming our poor play last year on haley? i don't think so! with the departure of kiana, anna wilson, and the hull twins, we had 5 top posts but no star point guard and no star wings.

p.s. thanks for posting haley's interview of lauren betts. it's a wonderful interview. they have a great time talking. both are exuberant and delightful. they clearly enjoy each other. betts calls haley a "10 out of 10" and references their close friendship over the years. betts says it was hard to leave because she loved the players, but she had to because she "did not feel supported." given the context, she appears to be saying not supported by the staff.

There comes a point where our speculation may be counterproductive.  While we fans might like to know the inside story, we are not entitled to know it, and it might or might not be good for the program if it were publicly known.   Here are the salient points, in my opinion:

1. Not everyone fits with the personality of every coach, no matter how accomplished that coach or that athlete might be.  And not every freshman fits Stanford, believe it or not.  Some, like Alyssa Jerome, so fall in love with the culture of the program and the sisterhood they stay for 5 years even with almost no playing time.  Some, like Taylor Rooks, find out their freshman year that it is not a match for them.  They could be homesick, they could find Stanford doesn't fit their academic plans, they could fall out of love with the level of basketball competition.  In the pre-portal days, we never heard about these stories, but they were always there.  Student athletes just had to "tough it out" or suffer if they made a decision that was not right for them.  Now we know about every one.

2. Betts was very careful not to disparage Stanford in the interview, although it is clear that in some way or another she did not feel supported.  I think many of us had the sense that for one reason or another--and speculation has run a little too rampant--the team chemistry last year was not what it should be.  It would have been a rough atmosphere for a freshman to step into.  It sure seems better this year.

3. Tara made a comment in the post-celebration interview sticks in my mind.  She said something like "Nobody is perfect.  I've said some things to some players I regret.  I've not been the coach I needed to be at certain times."   I wonder if she had specific incidents in mind.  One thing is certain--she has in fact changed her approach this year.  She changed her coaching staff, and she has infused a much more positive philosophy.  Tara's effort to change (successfully, it seems) actually confirms in my mind that something did need to change, and it started with her.  That is why she has lasted--she can be self-critical and correct and adapt.

Since Betts was not in the game against Utah in the last few seconds and in the OT, I wonder if she will now transfer somewhere else where she is appreciated.  She is a very good, but not great, player.  One of her weaknessess is she clogs up the driving lanes.  Pili is also very good but not great.  She does not run the court and is not very good defensively.  However, she is very good around the basket on offense.

[ljw63]

Haley stood behind Tara and held both hands with thumb to forefinger touching over her eyes as if they were goggles and made fun of Tara. 

i believe the gesture you are referencing is celebratory, not mocking. it means look at that 3-point shot! or, more generally, look at that great play! steph curry uses it often.

https://www.vrfitnessinsider.com/what-st...ro-sports/

(sorry, i can't figure out how to post the photo rather than the link)

thank you for mentioning tara not attending haley's draft night. isn't that on remembers-everyone's-birthday tara rather than on haley? i noticed that the video of the history of stanford's teams left out haley from the section on the recent national championship. is that on haley? tara assigned haley to run the point at least 50% of the time last year when we had no experienced point guard. that led to many critiques of haley. imo haley did what tara asked even though it ruined haley's game.

tara is now supportive of nil, but i recall her being cool and skeptical when nil was just starting out. haley made the first forays into nil, and i can easily imagine tara being critical at first.

blaming transfers out on haley? i don't think so! there was a logjam at the post - betts still wouldn't start at stanford this year. the higher-ranked indya nivar backed up lepolo.

blaming our poor play last year on haley? i don't think so! with the departure of kiana, anna wilson, and the hull twins, we had 5 top posts but no star point guard and no star wings.

p.s. thanks for posting haley's interview of lauren betts. it's a wonderful interview. they have a great time talking. both are exuberant and delightful. they clearly enjoy each other. betts calls haley a "10 out of 10" and references their close friendship over the years. betts says it was hard to leave because she loved the players, but she had to because she "did not feel supported." given the context, she appears to be saying not supported by the staff.

There comes a point where our speculation may be counterproductive.  While we fans might like to know the inside story, we are not entitled to know it, and it might or might not be good for the program if it were publicly known.   Here are the salient points, in my opinion:

1. Not everyone fits with the personality of every coach, no matter how accomplished that coach or that athlete might be.  And not every freshman fits Stanford, believe it or not.  Some, like Alyssa Jerome, so fall in love with the culture of the program and the sisterhood they stay for 5 years even with almost no playing time.  Some, like Taylor Rooks, find out their freshman year that it is not a match for them.  They could be homesick, they could find Stanford doesn't fit their academic plans, they could fall out of love with the level of basketball competition.  In the pre-portal days, we never heard about these stories, but they were always there.  Student athletes just had to "tough it out" or suffer if they made a decision that was not right for them.  Now we know about every one.

2. Betts was very careful not to disparage Stanford in the interview, although it is clear that in some way or another she did not feel supported.  I think many of us had the sense that for one reason or another--and speculation has run a little too rampant--the team chemistry last year was not what it should be.  It would have been a rough atmosphere for a freshman to step into.  It sure seems better this year.

3. Tara made a comment in the post-celebration interview sticks in my mind.  She said something like "Nobody is perfect.  I've said some things to some players I regret.  I've not been the coach I needed to be at certain times."   I wonder if she had specific incidents in mind.  One thing is certain--she has in fact changed her approach this year.  She changed her coaching staff, and she has infused a much more positive philosophy.  Tara's effort to change (successfully, it seems) actually confirms in my mind that something did need to change, and it started with her.  That is why she has lasted--she can be self-critical and correct and adapt.

Since Betts was not in the game against Utah in the last few seconds and in the OT, I wonder if she will now transfer somewhere else where she is appreciated.  She is a very good, but not great, player.  One of her weaknessess is she clogs up the driving lanes.  Pili is also very good but not great.  She does not run the court and is not very good defensively.  However, she is very good around the basket on offense.

[Baez87]

My wife and I sit a few rows behind the Stanford bench. We get to see serious strategy sessions and we get to see fun celebrations. The situation that I was recounting about Haley and the huddle was in a serious game-time context. The players were seated as was Tara. The group was seriously strategizing about the next game play. The game situation was tense. That is, all but Haley. She wasn’t huddled over or listening, she was the only player standing upright behind Tara. Haley caught my attention because, while the rest of the team was gathered around the coaches, she was standing looking around Maples with her hands on her head playing some version of sky pilot.
So, if that is what is observed, what is the inference? Is Haley bored, aloof, disrespectful of the coach, ADHD, or just goofing around? I really had no idea until Coach Britney took Haley's hand, walked her back a couple of steps, and shook her head "no." The kindest inference I could make was that Haley was simply distracted and in her own world. A more critical inference would be that she didn’t show respect for her coach. I’m sure that each person will conclude differently depending on the point he or she wishes to make. But, it would be a real stretch to say she was celebrating. The context was not set for frivolity.

[Baez87]

My wife and I sit a few rows behind the Stanford bench. We get to see serious strategy sessions and we get to see fun celebrations. The situation that I was recounting about Haley and the huddle was in a serious game-time context. The players were seated as was Tara. The group was seriously strategizing about the next game play. The game situation was tense. That is, all but Haley. She wasn’t huddled over or listening, she was the only player standing upright behind Tara. Haley caught my attention because, while the rest of the team was gathered around the coaches, she was standing looking around Maples with her hands on her head playing some version of sky pilot.
So, if that is what is observed, what is the inference? Is Haley bored, aloof, disrespectful of the coach, ADHD, or just goofing around? I really had no idea until Coach Britney took Haley's hand, walked her back a couple of steps, and shook her head "no." The kindest inference I could make was that Haley was simply distracted and in her own world. A more critical inference would be that she didn’t show respect for her coach. I’m sure that each person will conclude differently depending on the point he or she wishes to make. But, it would be a real stretch to say she was celebrating. The context was not set for frivolity.

[BillBradley]

In the NYT article, Tara said: "Know that if your senior leaders are unhappy, your whole team will be. . . .". 

Leadership is of the utmost importance in all team sports and it's a very, very difficult thing to teach. We've all heard the expression "natural born leaders". I don't think Haley was a very good leader, and let's be clear - the 2022-2023 team was Haley's team. We all have our opinions, and that's mine. You can be a great player (she was), a great friend (she was), and even a great teammate (she probably was). That doesn't mean you are a great leader. If Betts or Nivar or Prechtel or whoever else on the team were unhappy, your team leader needs to take part in addressing it. I think this is where Haley stumbled. My guess is she 1) wanted to be everyone's friend 2) liked to commisserate instead of solve and 3) perhaps enjoyed the attention and drama a little too much. In the end, it turned into a bunch of talented players who weren't on the same page, and you could see it on the court. Desperate to win, but they weren't together. 

All that said, I don't think Haley is to blame for her team's underachievement. I look at it more like it was a maturity thing and a skill void vs. her being toxic. I do believe she cared a lot for the team and the program. 

Tara has taken some of the accountability for last year, multiple times in interviews. I would have liked Haley and Lauren to own up to some of it, too. That would have been the mature thing to do. Even something like "I feel badly about how things went...". Instead, they just tell each other how great the other one is, giggle about secrets...just rubbed me wrong, especially given how it was such a terrible experience for Lauren. Listening to them talk is an indication of why they couldn't get through the problems last year.

[BillBradley]

In the NYT article, Tara said: "Know that if your senior leaders are unhappy, your whole team will be. . . .". 

Leadership is of the utmost importance in all team sports and it's a very, very difficult thing to teach. We've all heard the expression "natural born leaders". I don't think Haley was a very good leader, and let's be clear - the 2022-2023 team was Haley's team. We all have our opinions, and that's mine. You can be a great player (she was), a great friend (she was), and even a great teammate (she probably was). That doesn't mean you are a great leader. If Betts or Nivar or Prechtel or whoever else on the team were unhappy, your team leader needs to take part in addressing it. I think this is where Haley stumbled. My guess is she 1) wanted to be everyone's friend 2) liked to commisserate instead of solve and 3) perhaps enjoyed the attention and drama a little too much. In the end, it turned into a bunch of talented players who weren't on the same page, and you could see it on the court. Desperate to win, but they weren't together. 

All that said, I don't think Haley is to blame for her team's underachievement. I look at it more like it was a maturity thing and a skill void vs. her being toxic. I do believe she cared a lot for the team and the program. 

Tara has taken some of the accountability for last year, multiple times in interviews. I would have liked Haley and Lauren to own up to some of it, too. That would have been the mature thing to do. Even something like "I feel badly about how things went...". Instead, they just tell each other how great the other one is, giggle about secrets...just rubbed me wrong, especially given how it was such a terrible experience for Lauren. Listening to them talk is an indication of why they couldn't get through the problems last year.

[76lsjumb]

My wife and I sit a few rows behind the Stanford bench. We get to see serious strategy sessions and we get to see fun celebrations. The situation that I was recounting about Haley and the huddle was in a serious game-time context. The players were seated as was Tara. The group was seriously strategizing about the next game play. The game situation was tense. That is, all but Haley. She wasn’t huddled over or listening, she was the only player standing upright behind Tara. Haley caught my attention because, while the rest of the team was gathered around the coaches, she was standing looking around Maples with her hands on her head playing some version of sky pilot.
So, if that is what is observed, what is the inference? Is Haley bored, aloof, disrespectful of the coach, ADHD, or just goofing around? I really had no idea until Coach Britney took Haley's hand, walked her back a couple of steps, and shook her head "no." The kindest inference I could make was that Haley was simply distracted and in her own world. A more critical inference would be that she didn’t show respect for her coach. I’m sure that each person will conclude differently depending on the point he or she wishes to make. But, it would be a real stretch to say she was celebrating. The context was not set for frivolity.

Would it be fair to say that those 30 seconds [give or take] are the basis for your conclusion that Haley Jones is a "bad apple" [your words, not mine]?

[76lsjumb]

My wife and I sit a few rows behind the Stanford bench. We get to see serious strategy sessions and we get to see fun celebrations. The situation that I was recounting about Haley and the huddle was in a serious game-time context. The players were seated as was Tara. The group was seriously strategizing about the next game play. The game situation was tense. That is, all but Haley. She wasn’t huddled over or listening, she was the only player standing upright behind Tara. Haley caught my attention because, while the rest of the team was gathered around the coaches, she was standing looking around Maples with her hands on her head playing some version of sky pilot.
So, if that is what is observed, what is the inference? Is Haley bored, aloof, disrespectful of the coach, ADHD, or just goofing around? I really had no idea until Coach Britney took Haley's hand, walked her back a couple of steps, and shook her head "no." The kindest inference I could make was that Haley was simply distracted and in her own world. A more critical inference would be that she didn’t show respect for her coach. I’m sure that each person will conclude differently depending on the point he or she wishes to make. But, it would be a real stretch to say she was celebrating. The context was not set for frivolity.

Would it be fair to say that those 30 seconds [give or take] are the basis for your conclusion that Haley Jones is a "bad apple" [your words, not mine]?

[Sakibomb25]

I listened to the interview and my takeaway was that ultimately, Stanford was just the wrong fit for Betts, both basketball wise and socially. I mean, she didn't even get a chance to visit the school before committing. The support she is talking about may or may not have anything to do with basketball at all. Stanford just wasn't a good fit, end of story. A bit sad, considering it was her dream school... but it is what it is. She still seems close to her Stanford teammates, as many of them have commented on her social media posts after she left.

Who knows what happened between Jones and VanDerveer, but clearly something happened. I don't think it was anyone person's fault - just a perfect storm, unfortunately. And I don't think Jones running the point "ruined" her skills - that was the beauty of her game was that she was a point forward. If anything, her lack of a three-point shot, for whatever reason, hurt her game more than anything else. But I digress... the point is, last year the team underachieved and I think it was because of a variety of factors and not just one person.

We also can't assume Jones or Prechtel not being there meant anything regarding her relationship with VanDerveer. Nneka wasn't at the ceremony - does that mean she doesn't respect or like VanDerveer anymore? We don't see their text messages or phone logs, so we have no way of knowing what their relationship is like.

The interview was actually pretty good and had some interesting things to say from both.

[Sakibomb25]

I listened to the interview and my takeaway was that ultimately, Stanford was just the wrong fit for Betts, both basketball wise and socially. I mean, she didn't even get a chance to visit the school before committing. The support she is talking about may or may not have anything to do with basketball at all. Stanford just wasn't a good fit, end of story. A bit sad, considering it was her dream school... but it is what it is. She still seems close to her Stanford teammates, as many of them have commented on her social media posts after she left.

Who knows what happened between Jones and VanDerveer, but clearly something happened. I don't think it was anyone person's fault - just a perfect storm, unfortunately. And I don't think Jones running the point "ruined" her skills - that was the beauty of her game was that she was a point forward. If anything, her lack of a three-point shot, for whatever reason, hurt her game more than anything else. But I digress... the point is, last year the team underachieved and I think it was because of a variety of factors and not just one person.

We also can't assume Jones or Prechtel not being there meant anything regarding her relationship with VanDerveer. Nneka wasn't at the ceremony - does that mean she doesn't respect or like VanDerveer anymore? We don't see their text messages or phone logs, so we have no way of knowing what their relationship is like.

The interview was actually pretty good and had some interesting things to say from both.

[jonnyss]

In the NYT article, Tara said: "Know that if your senior leaders are unhappy, your whole team will be. . . .". 

Leadership is of the utmost importance in all team sports and it's a very, very difficult thing to teach. We've all heard the expression "natural born leaders". I don't think Haley was a very good leader, and let's be clear - the 2022-2023 team was Haley's team. We all have our opinions, and that's mine. You can be a great player (she was), a great friend (she was), and even a great teammate (she probably was). That doesn't mean you are a great leader. If Betts or Nivar or Prechtel or whoever else on the team were unhappy, your team leader needs to take part in addressing it. I think this is where Haley stumbled. My guess is she 1) wanted to be everyone's friend 2) liked to commisserate instead of solve and 3) perhaps enjoyed the attention and drama a little too much. In the end, it turned into a bunch of talented players who weren't on the same page, and you could see it on the court. Desperate to win, but they weren't together. 

All that said, I don't think Haley is to blame for her team's underachievement. I look at it more like it was a maturity thing and a skill void vs. her being toxic. I do believe she cared a lot for the team and the program. 

Tara has taken some of the accountability for last year, multiple times in interviews. I would have liked Haley and Lauren to own up to some of it, too. That would have been the mature thing to do. Even something like "I feel badly about how things went...". Instead, they just tell each other how great the other one is, giggle about secrets...just rubbed me wrong, especially given how it was such a terrible experience for Lauren. Listening to them talk is an indication of why they couldn't get through the problems last year.

please remind me how tara has "taken some of the accountability." i don't recall anything that had to do with team mood and chemistry, only that it was hard to give 6 posts playing time (which is blaming the roster, not her own actions). did i miss something?

how do you know haley didn't try to talk to tara and kate about it, but got shut down? lauren is saying here the coaching staff didn't support her and has said previously that she was depressed last year, and this year's ucla coaching staff addressed her depression directly and helped.  lauren doesn't in any way say she was unhappy with team chemistry last year - quite the opposite. both haley and lauren take great care not to go into detail about what displeased them about the coaches, but that doesn't mean nothing happened. 

lauren has said publicly that she was depressed last year. haley very occasionally looked and acted unhappy. that could be haley's not being a leader. it could also be displeasure with some unkindness by the coaches, which she is gracious enough not to mention. i don't know which and don't see how other folks can know it's haley's fault rather than the coaches' fault (or, yes, nobody's fault).

speaking of support, everyone talks about tara, but what about kate? a favorite player in the early 90's. a smart and accomplished woman with multiple advanced degrees. but she sure has a cool, even stern demeanor on the bench. maybe she's warm with the players in private. does anyone know?

p.s. thanks for your post saki. lauren implies in the interview that it was lack of support from the basketball staff. she says loved her teammates, but she needed support. haley asks if it was just lack of playing time. lauren shakes her head and says, "don't get me started...""

[jonnyss]

In the NYT article, Tara said: "Know that if your senior leaders are unhappy, your whole team will be. . . .". 

Leadership is of the utmost importance in all team sports and it's a very, very difficult thing to teach. We've all heard the expression "natural born leaders". I don't think Haley was a very good leader, and let's be clear - the 2022-2023 team was Haley's team. We all have our opinions, and that's mine. You can be a great player (she was), a great friend (she was), and even a great teammate (she probably was). That doesn't mean you are a great leader. If Betts or Nivar or Prechtel or whoever else on the team were unhappy, your team leader needs to take part in addressing it. I think this is where Haley stumbled. My guess is she 1) wanted to be everyone's friend 2) liked to commisserate instead of solve and 3) perhaps enjoyed the attention and drama a little too much. In the end, it turned into a bunch of talented players who weren't on the same page, and you could see it on the court. Desperate to win, but they weren't together. 

All that said, I don't think Haley is to blame for her team's underachievement. I look at it more like it was a maturity thing and a skill void vs. her being toxic. I do believe she cared a lot for the team and the program. 

Tara has taken some of the accountability for last year, multiple times in interviews. I would have liked Haley and Lauren to own up to some of it, too. That would have been the mature thing to do. Even something like "I feel badly about how things went...". Instead, they just tell each other how great the other one is, giggle about secrets...just rubbed me wrong, especially given how it was such a terrible experience for Lauren. Listening to them talk is an indication of why they couldn't get through the problems last year.

please remind me how tara has "taken some of the accountability." i don't recall anything that had to do with team mood and chemistry, only that it was hard to give 6 posts playing time (which is blaming the roster, not her own actions). did i miss something?

how do you know haley didn't try to talk to tara and kate about it, but got shut down? lauren is saying here the coaching staff didn't support her and has said previously that she was depressed last year, and this year's ucla coaching staff addressed her depression directly and helped.  lauren doesn't in any way say she was unhappy with team chemistry last year - quite the opposite. both haley and lauren take great care not to go into detail about what displeased them about the coaches, but that doesn't mean nothing happened. 

lauren has said publicly that she was depressed last year. haley very occasionally looked and acted unhappy. that could be haley's not being a leader. it could also be displeasure with some unkindness by the coaches, which she is gracious enough not to mention. i don't know which and don't see how other folks can know it's haley's fault rather than the coaches' fault (or, yes, nobody's fault).

speaking of support, everyone talks about tara, but what about kate? a favorite player in the early 90's. a smart and accomplished woman with multiple advanced degrees. but she sure has a cool, even stern demeanor on the bench. maybe she's warm with the players in private. does anyone know?

p.s. thanks for your post saki. lauren implies in the interview that it was lack of support from the basketball staff. she says loved her teammates, but she needed support. haley asks if it was just lack of playing time. lauren shakes her head and says, "don't get me started...""

[jacket3ree]

Fascinating thread. Reminds me of my daughter, who taught middle school for ten years, saying 'you never leave middle school.'  Of course she just jumped to high school, so maybe there's hope.

[jacket3ree]

Fascinating thread. Reminds me of my daughter, who taught middle school for ten years, saying 'you never leave middle school.'  Of course she just jumped to high school, so maybe there's hope.

[CompSci87]

I kind of feel like we are all in middle school ourselves, taking small observations and running rather too far with them. 

I'm sure the situation with 15 players, 4 coaches, etc., was complex enough that even those who were there wouldn't agree on what all went wrong and why. I don't think us fans speculating in depth about the details is a good look.

[CompSci87]

I kind of feel like we are all in middle school ourselves, taking small observations and running rather too far with them. 

I'm sure the situation with 15 players, 4 coaches, etc., was complex enough that even those who were there wouldn't agree on what all went wrong and why. I don't think us fans speculating in depth about the details is a good look.

[martyup]

I think focusing on one season and trying to draw conclusions about how a coach treats her players is misguided.  If you watched the ceremony for Tara after the Beaver game, you see the positive impact she has had over 4 decades of coaching young women.  There should be no question as to her coaching abilities or treatment of her players.  She is the GOAT.

[martyup]

I think focusing on one season and trying to draw conclusions about how a coach treats her players is misguided.  If you watched the ceremony for Tara after the Beaver game, you see the positive impact she has had over 4 decades of coaching young women.  There should be no question as to her coaching abilities or treatment of her players.  She is the GOAT.

[76lsjumb]

I kind of feel like we are all in middle school ourselves, taking small observations and running rather too far with them. 

I'm sure the situation with 15 players, 4 coaches, etc., was complex enough that even those who were there wouldn't agree on what all went wrong and why. I don't think us fans speculating in depth about the details is a good look.

I heartily agree, but, if folks stopped “taking small observations and running rather too far with them” or “speculating in depth about the details,” the Board would probably contain one-tenth the number of threads, and each would be one-tenth as long…. :-)

[76lsjumb]

I kind of feel like we are all in middle school ourselves, taking small observations and running rather too far with them. 

I'm sure the situation with 15 players, 4 coaches, etc., was complex enough that even those who were there wouldn't agree on what all went wrong and why. I don't think us fans speculating in depth about the details is a good look.

I heartily agree, but, if folks stopped “taking small observations and running rather too far with them” or “speculating in depth about the details,” the Board would probably contain one-tenth the number of threads, and each would be one-tenth as long…. :-)

[CompSci87]

I kind of feel like we are all in middle school ourselves, taking small observations and running rather too far with them. 

I'm sure the situation with 15 players, 4 coaches, etc., was complex enough that even those who were there wouldn't agree on what all went wrong and why. I don't think us fans speculating in depth about the details is a good look.

I heartily agree, but, if folks stopped “taking small observations and running rather too far with them” or “speculating in depth about the details,” the Board would probably contain one-tenth the number of threads, and each would be one-tenth as long…. :-)

Hehe. I like it better when we do that in regard to play on the court instead of personal interactions we aren't privy to.

[CompSci87]

I kind of feel like we are all in middle school ourselves, taking small observations and running rather too far with them. 

I'm sure the situation with 15 players, 4 coaches, etc., was complex enough that even those who were there wouldn't agree on what all went wrong and why. I don't think us fans speculating in depth about the details is a good look.

I heartily agree, but, if folks stopped “taking small observations and running rather too far with them” or “speculating in depth about the details,” the Board would probably contain one-tenth the number of threads, and each would be one-tenth as long…. :-)

Hehe. I like it better when we do that in regard to play on the court instead of personal interactions we aren't privy to.

[OCcardinal]

I kind of feel like we are all in middle school ourselves, taking small observations and running rather too far with them. 

I'm sure the situation with 15 players, 4 coaches, etc., was complex enough that even those who were there wouldn't agree on what all went wrong and why. I don't think us fans speculating in depth about the details is a good look.

I agree we shouldn't speculate. But in middle school students gossip about inconsequential things.  If you like Stanford women's basketball this is quite serious.  Jones' commitment to Stanford was a big deal for the program. And it started an incredible pipeline from Jones to Brink to Betts of truly elite players.  We won a national championship for the first time in decades and Tara was starting to out-recruit Geno.  Then it all fell apart, seemingly at once.  Despite a great start to last season, we failed to make the Pac 12 title game and then failed to make the Sweet 16.  Then the two top-ranked recruits in our freshman class (including, of course Betts) transferred out and we missed out on most of our top prospects. And now we have zero current recruits even playing in the McDonalds All American game.  The team is doing great this year, of course, so there's lots to celebrate for now. But that UConn (of old) level pipeline has evaporated. Maybe it's too much to expect that Stanford could have maintained that (due to NIL or otherwise). But if there's something in this interview, or elsewhere, that helps explain the dramatic shift, I'm very curious to understand it.

[OCcardinal]

I kind of feel like we are all in middle school ourselves, taking small observations and running rather too far with them. 

I'm sure the situation with 15 players, 4 coaches, etc., was complex enough that even those who were there wouldn't agree on what all went wrong and why. I don't think us fans speculating in depth about the details is a good look.

I agree we shouldn't speculate. But in middle school students gossip about inconsequential things.  If you like Stanford women's basketball this is quite serious.  Jones' commitment to Stanford was a big deal for the program. And it started an incredible pipeline from Jones to Brink to Betts of truly elite players.  We won a national championship for the first time in decades and Tara was starting to out-recruit Geno.  Then it all fell apart, seemingly at once.  Despite a great start to last season, we failed to make the Pac 12 title game and then failed to make the Sweet 16.  Then the two top-ranked recruits in our freshman class (including, of course Betts) transferred out and we missed out on most of our top prospects. And now we have zero current recruits even playing in the McDonalds All American game.  The team is doing great this year, of course, so there's lots to celebrate for now. But that UConn (of old) level pipeline has evaporated. Maybe it's too much to expect that Stanford could have maintained that (due to NIL or otherwise). But if there's something in this interview, or elsewhere, that helps explain the dramatic shift, I'm very curious to understand it.

[martyup]

#1 South Carolina is playing #9 LSU right now on ESPN.

[martyup]

#1 South Carolina is playing #9 LSU right now on ESPN.

[Card10Fan]

#1 South Carolina is playing #9 LSU right now on ESPN.

What's everyone think? Top of the SEC looks pretty good. Both look good enough to win a National Championship. SC just knows how to win close games in tough environments. Mulkey mismanaged her timeouts and left none for the last minute and a half of the game. Reese also fouled out in the fourth which hurt LSU down the stretch.

[Card10Fan]

#1 South Carolina is playing #9 LSU right now on ESPN.

What's everyone think? Top of the SEC looks pretty good. Both look good enough to win a National Championship. SC just knows how to win close games in tough environments. Mulkey mismanaged her timeouts and left none for the last minute and a half of the game. Reese also fouled out in the fourth which hurt LSU down the stretch.

[crackpot]

#1 South Carolina is playing #9 LSU right now on ESPN.

What's everyone think? Top of the SEC looks pretty good. Both look good enough to win a National Championship. SC just knows how to win close games in tough environments. Mulkey mismanaged her timeouts and left none for the last minute and a half of the game. Reese also fouled out in the fourth which hurt LSU down the stretch.

As much as I was rooting for South Carolina to win, every miss would cause my stomach to clench followed by see, even the #1 team in the nation misses easy layups...

[crackpot]

#1 South Carolina is playing #9 LSU right now on ESPN.

What's everyone think? Top of the SEC looks pretty good. Both look good enough to win a National Championship. SC just knows how to win close games in tough environments. Mulkey mismanaged her timeouts and left none for the last minute and a half of the game. Reese also fouled out in the fourth which hurt LSU down the stretch.

As much as I was rooting for South Carolina to win, every miss would cause my stomach to clench followed by see, even the #1 team in the nation misses easy layups...

[Softball Fan]

I never followed WBB closely.  However back in the day I kept up to date about WVB recruits.  Every season I corresponded on a regular basis with a number of Stanford team and recruited players' parents on another message board.  I went to prep club tournaments and frequently talked to parents of players being recruited by Stanford.  Back then I had a pretty good sense about what players/parents thought of the WVB coaching staff.  Now I'm way too old for that.

I don't believe there is anyone here who is actually talking directly to WBB players' parents.  It's speculation by outsiders which is fine because everyone realizes that's what it is.

FWIW every sport goes in cycles on recruiting success.  Difficult to form conclusions based on one or two seasons.

[Softball Fan]

I never followed WBB closely.  However back in the day I kept up to date about WVB recruits.  Every season I corresponded on a regular basis with a number of Stanford team and recruited players' parents on another message board.  I went to prep club tournaments and frequently talked to parents of players being recruited by Stanford.  Back then I had a pretty good sense about what players/parents thought of the WVB coaching staff.  Now I'm way too old for that.

I don't believe there is anyone here who is actually talking directly to WBB players' parents.  It's speculation by outsiders which is fine because everyone realizes that's what it is.

FWIW every sport goes in cycles on recruiting success.  Difficult to form conclusions based on one or two seasons.