04-19-2022, 07:45 AM
Good early season test. Although April series generally don’t mean much. Mets pitching has been even better than Giants. A split of the 4 would be a good showing. This is a brutal road trip.
Outside Topic 2022 Giants thread
04-19-2022, 09:54 AM
I was thinking the same thing. I am certain the 16 April wins last year counted towards the 107 total.
The new pitch clock in the minors is working well
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3376...early-same
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3376...early-same
The new pitch clock in the minors is working well
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3376...early-same
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3376...early-same
04-19-2022, 07:37 PM
Rough day in NY. Loses tough. Losing Cobb tougher. Scherzer. Begged out of game 6 of NLCS with a “tired arm”. Weak.
04-19-2022, 07:44 PM
OK, that's one pitcher of the two I predicted. Sammy Long becomes #5 in rotation. Next man up. How's that for cliches. Part of what makes Scherzer tough is the apprehension that you are going to face him. Just like when you knew that Koufax was tomorrow. Hope Webb learned something watching him.
Have faith Lex.
Have faith Lex.
OK, that's one pitcher of the two I predicted. Sammy Long becomes #5 in rotation. Next man up. How's that for cliches. Part of what makes Scherzer tough is the apprehension that you are going to face him. Just like when you knew that Koufax was tomorrow. Hope Webb learned something watching him.
Have faith Lex.
Have faith Lex.
04-19-2022, 09:14 PM
(04-19-2022, 07:44 PM)Phogge Wrote: OK, that's one pitcher of the two I predicted. Sammy Long becomes #5 in rotation. Next man up. How's that for cliches. Part of what makes Scherzer tough is the apprehension that you are going to face him. Just like when you knew that Koufax was tomorrow. Hope Webb learned something watching him.
Have faith Lex.
Brutal road trip. If they go 6-5 it’s a big success. They can still get there. Split the reminder of this series. Mets are going to be a force all year. Good staff. Strong lineup with a lot of balance.
(04-19-2022, 07:44 PM)Phogge Wrote: OK, that's one pitcher of the two I predicted. Sammy Long becomes #5 in rotation. Next man up. How's that for cliches. Part of what makes Scherzer tough is the apprehension that you are going to face him. Just like when you knew that Koufax was tomorrow. Hope Webb learned something watching him.
Have faith Lex.
Brutal road trip. If they go 6-5 it’s a big success. They can still get there. Split the reminder of this series. Mets are going to be a force all year. Good staff. Strong lineup with a lot of balance.
Think big: 8-3 or 7-4, at worst. I have a ton of confidence in the pitching staff and the hitters will score more than the other guys. This is a lot like some of the WS years - pitching, defense and just enough at the plate.
Think big: 8-3 or 7-4, at worst. I have a ton of confidence in the pitching staff and the hitters will score more than the other guys. This is a lot like some of the WS years - pitching, defense and just enough at the plate.
04-19-2022, 10:34 PM
Farhan is going to make a deal. Harrison, Luciano maybe Pomares untouchable. If they go south plenty of guys on the roster to help a contender in July. Win win possibilities.
04-20-2022, 04:47 AM
What has happened to sports fan psychology? It used to be fans seemed to take losses with less angst and find reasons for optimism even in defeat. Now, it seems everyone is Chicken Little all the time.
The Braves weren't even over .500 in August of 2021 and won the World Series. The Niners were 3-5 at one point in 2021 and a dropped INT from going to Super Bowl.
Fans these days seemingly freak out at every freaking thing that isn't perfect. I listen to Yankees fans on ESPN NY act like the season is over because they dropped 2/3 at Orioles and split with Blue Jays. They act like they are entitled to go 162-0.
College Football is the only sport where a loss really is devastating because in most cases, two losses is all you can afford and still win a championship in most cases. Every play is scrutinized and every game a barometer of the whole program's value.
This simply isn't the case with MLB given how many games there are. The Giants are 7-4 through 11 games. That's not bad, and the playoffs are what counts for the team this season anyway. Those are five months away.
Does anyone know where to find stats on extra inning W-L records since they changed the rules?
The Braves weren't even over .500 in August of 2021 and won the World Series. The Niners were 3-5 at one point in 2021 and a dropped INT from going to Super Bowl.
Fans these days seemingly freak out at every freaking thing that isn't perfect. I listen to Yankees fans on ESPN NY act like the season is over because they dropped 2/3 at Orioles and split with Blue Jays. They act like they are entitled to go 162-0.
College Football is the only sport where a loss really is devastating because in most cases, two losses is all you can afford and still win a championship in most cases. Every play is scrutinized and every game a barometer of the whole program's value.
This simply isn't the case with MLB given how many games there are. The Giants are 7-4 through 11 games. That's not bad, and the playoffs are what counts for the team this season anyway. Those are five months away.
Does anyone know where to find stats on extra inning W-L records since they changed the rules?
What has happened to sports fan psychology? It used to be fans seemed to take losses with less angst and find reasons for optimism even in defeat. Now, it seems everyone is Chicken Little all the time.
The Braves weren't even over .500 in August of 2021 and won the World Series. The Niners were 3-5 at one point in 2021 and a dropped INT from going to Super Bowl.
Fans these days seemingly freak out at every freaking thing that isn't perfect. I listen to Yankees fans on ESPN NY act like the season is over because they dropped 2/3 at Orioles and split with Blue Jays. They act like they are entitled to go 162-0.
College Football is the only sport where a loss really is devastating because in most cases, two losses is all you can afford and still win a championship in most cases. Every play is scrutinized and every game a barometer of the whole program's value.
This simply isn't the case with MLB given how many games there are. The Giants are 7-4 through 11 games. That's not bad, and the playoffs are what counts for the team this season anyway. Those are five months away.
Does anyone know where to find stats on extra inning W-L records since they changed the rules?
The Braves weren't even over .500 in August of 2021 and won the World Series. The Niners were 3-5 at one point in 2021 and a dropped INT from going to Super Bowl.
Fans these days seemingly freak out at every freaking thing that isn't perfect. I listen to Yankees fans on ESPN NY act like the season is over because they dropped 2/3 at Orioles and split with Blue Jays. They act like they are entitled to go 162-0.
College Football is the only sport where a loss really is devastating because in most cases, two losses is all you can afford and still win a championship in most cases. Every play is scrutinized and every game a barometer of the whole program's value.
This simply isn't the case with MLB given how many games there are. The Giants are 7-4 through 11 games. That's not bad, and the playoffs are what counts for the team this season anyway. Those are five months away.
Does anyone know where to find stats on extra inning W-L records since they changed the rules?
(04-19-2022, 10:34 PM)Phogge Wrote: Farhan is going to make a deal. Harrison, Luciano maybe Pomares untouchable. If they go south plenty of guys on the roster to help a contender in July. Win win possibilities.
Wouldn't it be better to have signed players on the open market rather than having to trade prospects? with the addition of two wild cards this year the ratio of buyers to sellers is going to make a meaningful acquisition that much more costly as well.
(04-19-2022, 10:34 PM)Phogge Wrote: Farhan is going to make a deal. Harrison, Luciano maybe Pomares untouchable. If they go south plenty of guys on the roster to help a contender in July. Win win possibilities.
Wouldn't it be better to have signed players on the open market rather than having to trade prospects? with the addition of two wild cards this year the ratio of buyers to sellers is going to make a meaningful acquisition that much more costly as well.
(04-20-2022, 04:47 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: What has happened to sports fan psychology? It used to be fans seemed to take losses with less angst and find reasons for optimism even in defeat. Now, it seems everyone is Chicken Little all the time.
The Braves weren't even over .500 in August of 2021 and won the World Series.
And in the last full season prior to that (2019) the Nationals were 19-31 after fifty games and went on to win the World Series.
(04-20-2022, 04:47 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Does anyone know where to find stats on extra inning W-L records since they changed the rules?
Baseball-Reference breaks out extra inning W/L records as part of their Standings page. For example, last year the Giants record was 10-9. Dodgers went 6-13, Mariners 14-7, Nationals 2-11. In 2020, Giants went 2-3, Dodgers 5-1, Padres 4-0, Red Sox 0-4.
(04-20-2022, 04:47 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: What has happened to sports fan psychology? It used to be fans seemed to take losses with less angst and find reasons for optimism even in defeat. Now, it seems everyone is Chicken Little all the time.
The Braves weren't even over .500 in August of 2021 and won the World Series.
And in the last full season prior to that (2019) the Nationals were 19-31 after fifty games and went on to win the World Series.
(04-20-2022, 04:47 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Does anyone know where to find stats on extra inning W-L records since they changed the rules?
Baseball-Reference breaks out extra inning W/L records as part of their Standings page. For example, last year the Giants record was 10-9. Dodgers went 6-13, Mariners 14-7, Nationals 2-11. In 2020, Giants went 2-3, Dodgers 5-1, Padres 4-0, Red Sox 0-4.
(04-20-2022, 08:42 AM)DC 86 Wrote:(04-19-2022, 10:34 PM)Phogge Wrote: Farhan is going to make a deal. Harrison, Luciano maybe Pomares untouchable. If they go south plenty of guys on the roster to help a contender in July. Win win possibilities.
Wouldn't it be better to have signed players on the open market rather than having to trade prospects? with the addition of two wild cards this year the ratio of buyers to sellers is going to make a meaningful acquisition that much more costly as well.
Yes and no (unequivocal, right?)
Let’s look at, arguably, the Top 5 RH hitters who were signed as free agents prior to this season.
Bryant (age 30) - 7 years/$182million
2022 stats: .848 OPS, 136 OPS+
Suzuki ( age 27) - 5 years/$99.625 million
2022 stats: 1.478 OPS, 322 OPS+
Story (age 29) - 6 years/$140 million
2022 stats: .644 OPS, 85 OPS+
Castellanos (age 30) - 5 years /$ 100 million
2022 stats: .829 OPS, 139 OPS+
Marte (age 33) - 4 years/78 million
2022 stats: .691 OPS, 104 OPS+
Obviously, these stats are subject to significant changes as the season unfolds. However, for the sake of this discussion, do you have any regrets regarding the Giants failure to sign any of these guys?
Personally, I wish SF had signed Suzuki. I wrote in a post during the lockout that my top two choices were Rodon and Suzuki. I guess half a loaf is better than none….
As time moves along, I still believe SF will be judged to have been wise to avoid committing major resources to the other guys mentioned above. This takes us to your question. If a free agent meets a number of criteria: proven ability, good clubhouse fit, plays a needed position, reasonable salary/term (within the current context), I say, sign him up!
For example, I would take a long look at Trea Turner in the upcoming off season. If he could (and be willing to) play 3B, he would be a great addition to the Giants roster (best wishes and goodbye, Evan Longoria).
In other words, I think a very selective approach to free agency is desirable over trading young assets to acquire talent.
On the other hand, I like the idea of trading for a rental mid-season. You know what your needs are, you know what are getting and you can “test drive” the player to see how he would fit into the team culture. If everything lines up, you can offer him a big contract after the season.
In other words, it is always wise to look under the hood before making a big investment. Therefore, trading for players mid-season is desirable over signing free agents.
If you forced me to come down on one side or the other, I would probably choose trading for rentals over signing free agents. However, there are absolutely exceptions to the rule.
(04-20-2022, 08:42 AM)DC 86 Wrote:(04-19-2022, 10:34 PM)Phogge Wrote: Farhan is going to make a deal. Harrison, Luciano maybe Pomares untouchable. If they go south plenty of guys on the roster to help a contender in July. Win win possibilities.
Wouldn't it be better to have signed players on the open market rather than having to trade prospects? with the addition of two wild cards this year the ratio of buyers to sellers is going to make a meaningful acquisition that much more costly as well.
Yes and no (unequivocal, right?)
Let’s look at, arguably, the Top 5 RH hitters who were signed as free agents prior to this season.
Bryant (age 30) - 7 years/$182million
2022 stats: .848 OPS, 136 OPS+
Suzuki ( age 27) - 5 years/$99.625 million
2022 stats: 1.478 OPS, 322 OPS+
Story (age 29) - 6 years/$140 million
2022 stats: .644 OPS, 85 OPS+
Castellanos (age 30) - 5 years /$ 100 million
2022 stats: .829 OPS, 139 OPS+
Marte (age 33) - 4 years/78 million
2022 stats: .691 OPS, 104 OPS+
Obviously, these stats are subject to significant changes as the season unfolds. However, for the sake of this discussion, do you have any regrets regarding the Giants failure to sign any of these guys?
Personally, I wish SF had signed Suzuki. I wrote in a post during the lockout that my top two choices were Rodon and Suzuki. I guess half a loaf is better than none….
As time moves along, I still believe SF will be judged to have been wise to avoid committing major resources to the other guys mentioned above. This takes us to your question. If a free agent meets a number of criteria: proven ability, good clubhouse fit, plays a needed position, reasonable salary/term (within the current context), I say, sign him up!
For example, I would take a long look at Trea Turner in the upcoming off season. If he could (and be willing to) play 3B, he would be a great addition to the Giants roster (best wishes and goodbye, Evan Longoria).
In other words, I think a very selective approach to free agency is desirable over trading young assets to acquire talent.
On the other hand, I like the idea of trading for a rental mid-season. You know what your needs are, you know what are getting and you can “test drive” the player to see how he would fit into the team culture. If everything lines up, you can offer him a big contract after the season.
In other words, it is always wise to look under the hood before making a big investment. Therefore, trading for players mid-season is desirable over signing free agents.
If you forced me to come down on one side or the other, I would probably choose trading for rentals over signing free agents. However, there are absolutely exceptions to the rule.
(04-20-2022, 02:29 PM)Giants Wrote:(04-20-2022, 08:42 AM)DC 86 Wrote:(04-19-2022, 10:34 PM)Phogge Wrote: Farhan is going to make a deal. Harrison, Luciano maybe Pomares untouchable. If they go south plenty of guys on the roster to help a contender in July. Win win possibilities.
Wouldn't it be better to have signed players on the open market rather than having to trade prospects? with the addition of two wild cards this year the ratio of buyers to sellers is going to make a meaningful acquisition that much more costly as well.
Yes and no (unequivocal, right?)
Let’s look at, arguably, the Top 5 RH hitters who were signed as free agents prior to this season.
Bryant (age 30) - 7 years/$182million
2022 stats: .848 OPS, 136 OPS+
Suzuki ( age 27) - 5 years/$99.625 million
2022 stats: 1.478 OPS, 322 OPS+
Story (age 29) - 6 years/$140 million
2022 stats: .644 OPS, 85 OPS+
Castellanos (age 30) - 5 years /$ 100 million
2022 stats: .829 OPS, 139 OPS+
Marte (age 33) - 4 years/78 million
2022 stats: .691 OPS, 104 OPS+
Obviously, these stats are subject to significant changes as the season unfolds. However, for the sake of this discussion, do you have any regrets regarding the Giants failure to sign any of these guys?
Personally, I wish SF had signed Suzuki. I wrote in a post during the lockout that my top two choices were Rodon and Suzuki. I guess half a loaf is better than none….
As time moves along, I still believe SF will be judged to have been wise to avoid committing major resources to the other guys mentioned above. This takes us to your question. If a free agent meets a number of criteria: proven ability, good clubhouse fit, plays a needed position, reasonable salary/term (within the current context), I say, sign him up!
For example, I would take a long look at Trea Turner in the upcoming off season. If he could (and be willing to) play 3B, he would be a great addition to the Giants roster (best wishes and goodbye, Evan Longoria).
In other words, I think a very selective approach to free agency is desirable over trading young assets to acquire talent.
On the other hand, I like the idea of trading for a rental mid-season. You know what your needs are, you know what are getting and you can “test drive” the player to see how he would fit into the team culture. If everything lines up, you can offer him a big contract after the season.
In other words, it is always wise to look under the hood before making a big investment. Therefore, trading for players mid-season is desirable over signing free agents.
If you forced me to come down on one side or the other, I would probably choose trading for rentals over signing free agents. However, there are absolutely exceptions to the rule.
A few rebuttals, for fun:
1. It doesn't come down to one side or the other for a wealthy team like the Giants. Smart, well funded teams need to be active in both markets. Signing free agent position players doesn't preclude being opportunistic at the trade deadline, or vice versa. My response to Phogge was making the point that picking up a rental in late summer is not a substitute for signing free agents in the off season.
2. The Giants don't need to wait until the trade deadline to determine their needs. The Giants are weak at second and third base and have older platers vulnerable to injury at multiple positions. As you implied, right handed hitting was and is a known need.
3. You listed the "arguably, top 5 RH hitters who were signed as free agents prior to this season" but neglected to include the top 1 RH hitter who was signed as a free agent this off season.
4. Of course any team would like to add Trea Turner, who is one of the best players in the game. The Dodgers letting Seager leave indicates that they are committed to Turner and Lux as their future middle infielders and that Turner is unlikely to reach the open market. But let's suppose that he does. He will be 29 years and nine months old at the start of next season. He has a career 122 OPS+. He's primarily been a shortstop but also has played second base and center field. He hasn't played third base (the position that you mentioned) but could probably handle it.
Carlos Correa was 27 years and six months old at the start of this season. He has a career 127 OPS+ and is a superior defender to Turner. He's primarily been a shortstop but has the profile of an excellent third baseman. Yet the Giants did not meaningfully pursue him.
If Turner rejects an extension from LA and hits the open market it will be because he has lined up a massive Seeger-like contract somewhere. Given the Giants reluctance to engage with Correa (over two years younger at a comparable point, better hitter and fielder) I don't see any indication at all that SF would consider offering $300 mm+ to Turner, which is what would be required, so it's a moot point. The Giants aren't going to win (or better said, participate in) any bidding wars, and elite players (meaning players that meet your listed criteria, above) all trigger bidding wars, or they don't sign.
5. Should Giants fans have regrets over not signing any of the five RH hitters that you listed, or the sixth one that I added? absolutely. Not because they are certain to live up to their contracts, but because the Giants can afford to miss. If they sign someone for $20-$25 million a year it has no operational impact whatsoever even if that player becomes a dud. It's a highly unlikely scenario but if Story or Castellanos has to be released the dead money is nothing in the overall scheme of things, only less profit for ownership. And Suzuki signed for $17 mm/year; it's absurd that the Giants weren't more aggressive in attempting to sign him. Coming over from Japan there's a wide range of possible outcomes. But he's 27 years old with enormous upside, and the Giants are wealthy enough to absorb any and all downside.
6. I see no (or very marginal) value in kicking the tires. Teams have loads of intel on veterans who have been in the majors for six or more seasons, including references from current players and coaches who were in the same organization previously. General managers reach out to all their contacts throughout the majors, there are no surprises in terms of who you are getting when you sign Bryce Harper or Freddie Freeman or whoever.
(04-20-2022, 02:29 PM)Giants Wrote:(04-20-2022, 08:42 AM)DC 86 Wrote:(04-19-2022, 10:34 PM)Phogge Wrote: Farhan is going to make a deal. Harrison, Luciano maybe Pomares untouchable. If they go south plenty of guys on the roster to help a contender in July. Win win possibilities.
Wouldn't it be better to have signed players on the open market rather than having to trade prospects? with the addition of two wild cards this year the ratio of buyers to sellers is going to make a meaningful acquisition that much more costly as well.
Yes and no (unequivocal, right?)
Let’s look at, arguably, the Top 5 RH hitters who were signed as free agents prior to this season.
Bryant (age 30) - 7 years/$182million
2022 stats: .848 OPS, 136 OPS+
Suzuki ( age 27) - 5 years/$99.625 million
2022 stats: 1.478 OPS, 322 OPS+
Story (age 29) - 6 years/$140 million
2022 stats: .644 OPS, 85 OPS+
Castellanos (age 30) - 5 years /$ 100 million
2022 stats: .829 OPS, 139 OPS+
Marte (age 33) - 4 years/78 million
2022 stats: .691 OPS, 104 OPS+
Obviously, these stats are subject to significant changes as the season unfolds. However, for the sake of this discussion, do you have any regrets regarding the Giants failure to sign any of these guys?
Personally, I wish SF had signed Suzuki. I wrote in a post during the lockout that my top two choices were Rodon and Suzuki. I guess half a loaf is better than none….
As time moves along, I still believe SF will be judged to have been wise to avoid committing major resources to the other guys mentioned above. This takes us to your question. If a free agent meets a number of criteria: proven ability, good clubhouse fit, plays a needed position, reasonable salary/term (within the current context), I say, sign him up!
For example, I would take a long look at Trea Turner in the upcoming off season. If he could (and be willing to) play 3B, he would be a great addition to the Giants roster (best wishes and goodbye, Evan Longoria).
In other words, I think a very selective approach to free agency is desirable over trading young assets to acquire talent.
On the other hand, I like the idea of trading for a rental mid-season. You know what your needs are, you know what are getting and you can “test drive” the player to see how he would fit into the team culture. If everything lines up, you can offer him a big contract after the season.
In other words, it is always wise to look under the hood before making a big investment. Therefore, trading for players mid-season is desirable over signing free agents.
If you forced me to come down on one side or the other, I would probably choose trading for rentals over signing free agents. However, there are absolutely exceptions to the rule.
A few rebuttals, for fun:
1. It doesn't come down to one side or the other for a wealthy team like the Giants. Smart, well funded teams need to be active in both markets. Signing free agent position players doesn't preclude being opportunistic at the trade deadline, or vice versa. My response to Phogge was making the point that picking up a rental in late summer is not a substitute for signing free agents in the off season.
2. The Giants don't need to wait until the trade deadline to determine their needs. The Giants are weak at second and third base and have older platers vulnerable to injury at multiple positions. As you implied, right handed hitting was and is a known need.
3. You listed the "arguably, top 5 RH hitters who were signed as free agents prior to this season" but neglected to include the top 1 RH hitter who was signed as a free agent this off season.
4. Of course any team would like to add Trea Turner, who is one of the best players in the game. The Dodgers letting Seager leave indicates that they are committed to Turner and Lux as their future middle infielders and that Turner is unlikely to reach the open market. But let's suppose that he does. He will be 29 years and nine months old at the start of next season. He has a career 122 OPS+. He's primarily been a shortstop but also has played second base and center field. He hasn't played third base (the position that you mentioned) but could probably handle it.
Carlos Correa was 27 years and six months old at the start of this season. He has a career 127 OPS+ and is a superior defender to Turner. He's primarily been a shortstop but has the profile of an excellent third baseman. Yet the Giants did not meaningfully pursue him.
If Turner rejects an extension from LA and hits the open market it will be because he has lined up a massive Seeger-like contract somewhere. Given the Giants reluctance to engage with Correa (over two years younger at a comparable point, better hitter and fielder) I don't see any indication at all that SF would consider offering $300 mm+ to Turner, which is what would be required, so it's a moot point. The Giants aren't going to win (or better said, participate in) any bidding wars, and elite players (meaning players that meet your listed criteria, above) all trigger bidding wars, or they don't sign.
5. Should Giants fans have regrets over not signing any of the five RH hitters that you listed, or the sixth one that I added? absolutely. Not because they are certain to live up to their contracts, but because the Giants can afford to miss. If they sign someone for $20-$25 million a year it has no operational impact whatsoever even if that player becomes a dud. It's a highly unlikely scenario but if Story or Castellanos has to be released the dead money is nothing in the overall scheme of things, only less profit for ownership. And Suzuki signed for $17 mm/year; it's absurd that the Giants weren't more aggressive in attempting to sign him. Coming over from Japan there's a wide range of possible outcomes. But he's 27 years old with enormous upside, and the Giants are wealthy enough to absorb any and all downside.
6. I see no (or very marginal) value in kicking the tires. Teams have loads of intel on veterans who have been in the majors for six or more seasons, including references from current players and coaches who were in the same organization previously. General managers reach out to all their contacts throughout the majors, there are no surprises in terms of who you are getting when you sign Bryce Harper or Freddie Freeman or whoever.
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