[stupac2]

First of all, Stanford is notorious for being impossible to fail at.

I think that notoriety is, well, to be frank, stupid. Plenty of people get F's at Stanford, and plenty fail out. The difference between Stanford and Cal, as far as I've ever been able to find out, is that Stanford actually tries to help kids adjust to college life, while Cal throws them to the wolves. I personally think one of those approaches is sane and the other insane, but given the financial realities maybe Cal can't do otherwise. But there's a distinction between "we have resources available for those who need it" and "we coddle people to the point where our degrees are meaningless", confounding the two is disingenuous. As Yvonne's signature says (or said), it's not the University of Phoenix with a golf course.

[stupac2]

First of all, Stanford is notorious for being impossible to fail at.

I think that notoriety is, well, to be frank, stupid. Plenty of people get F's at Stanford, and plenty fail out. The difference between Stanford and Cal, as far as I've ever been able to find out, is that Stanford actually tries to help kids adjust to college life, while Cal throws them to the wolves. I personally think one of those approaches is sane and the other insane, but given the financial realities maybe Cal can't do otherwise. But there's a distinction between "we have resources available for those who need it" and "we coddle people to the point where our degrees are meaningless", confounding the two is disingenuous. As Yvonne's signature says (or said), it's not the University of Phoenix with a golf course.

[BostonCard]

I think his statements can be read two ways.  If it is a call to reform college football so that college and football can coexist better, say by advocating reducing the number of games or the hours of practice or increasing academic requirements, so that student-athletes can go back to be students, then I think that's great; it is a voice that needs to be heard.

If, on the other hand, he is offering a window into his own life, implying that he is really a full-time football player who has a hobby as a student, then, frankly, he is full of it and Shaw was right not to offer.  Sorry, but a kid posing in his own in-dorm hot tub doesn't get to give us a sob story about how much work goes into football and how little time that leaves for academics.  When I was at Stanford, athletes would often say that you can focus two out of three: athletics, academics, and a social life, and plenty gave up their social life in order to thrive in the other two.

BC

[BostonCard]

I think his statements can be read two ways.  If it is a call to reform college football so that college and football can coexist better, say by advocating reducing the number of games or the hours of practice or increasing academic requirements, so that student-athletes can go back to be students, then I think that's great; it is a voice that needs to be heard.

If, on the other hand, he is offering a window into his own life, implying that he is really a full-time football player who has a hobby as a student, then, frankly, he is full of it and Shaw was right not to offer.  Sorry, but a kid posing in his own in-dorm hot tub doesn't get to give us a sob story about how much work goes into football and how little time that leaves for academics.  When I was at Stanford, athletes would often say that you can focus two out of three: athletics, academics, and a social life, and plenty gave up their social life in order to thrive in the other two.

BC

[CTcard]

Here is the entire BR piece...Call me crazy but taken in the full context of the article he has some points.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/27225...g-national
...
This "helping players succeed" point is one where I think LSJU probably exceeds other schools.

Rosen does make several requests that schools "help players succeed", though it is never very clear what he means by that. As is, it kind of sounds like a whine with no particular idea in mind - but it's quite possible that's an unfair read based on the limitation of the interview format or my own bias.

If it is a request for more "tutoring" (which often teeters between excessive hand holding and outright fraud), then at the least I don't want LSJU exceeding other schools on that. If it is either a) arranging class and practice times so the interfere as little as possible, or b) creating an atmosphere that allows for some leeway on practice to make academics work out, then yes I do hope LSJU exceeds others.

At any rate, Rosen doesn't seem to be complaining that he has to go to school like ... say Cardale Jones did awhile back.

---------------
There are a variety of other tidbits in that interview.

anyone scared off by Rosen's direct and brutally honest personality "should have their head examined—it's football, not your local f--king co-op"

I am a little confused about what is my f--king co-op and exactly what is supposed to be going on there that would require complaining about someone with a brutally honest personality.

cautions that Rosen's path could mirror that of Hackenberg: a brobdingnagian recruit who never got better in college and is now "just a guy" in the NFL.

I guess that is sort of reasonable. Both came in highly touted, and both had fairly big total passing numbers with limited efficiency frosh years. Then Hackenberg's performance nose dived but he got drafted because he looks like a QB. Rosen's performance didn't nose dive before he got hurt so much as level off. Rosen doesn't look quite so much like a Hollywood QB, but does look good throwing the ball in the pocket.

One scout says Rosen will eventually get "bored" with football, turn his sights to "changing the world" and be gone within four years.

I've never really seen much indication Rosen wanted to change the world. He did say,

I want to own the world.

Not exactly inspiring.

[CTcard]

Here is the entire BR piece...Call me crazy but taken in the full context of the article he has some points.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/27225...g-national
...
This "helping players succeed" point is one where I think LSJU probably exceeds other schools.

Rosen does make several requests that schools "help players succeed", though it is never very clear what he means by that. As is, it kind of sounds like a whine with no particular idea in mind - but it's quite possible that's an unfair read based on the limitation of the interview format or my own bias.

If it is a request for more "tutoring" (which often teeters between excessive hand holding and outright fraud), then at the least I don't want LSJU exceeding other schools on that. If it is either a) arranging class and practice times so the interfere as little as possible, or b) creating an atmosphere that allows for some leeway on practice to make academics work out, then yes I do hope LSJU exceeds others.

At any rate, Rosen doesn't seem to be complaining that he has to go to school like ... say Cardale Jones did awhile back.

---------------
There are a variety of other tidbits in that interview.

anyone scared off by Rosen's direct and brutally honest personality "should have their head examined—it's football, not your local f--king co-op"

I am a little confused about what is my f--king co-op and exactly what is supposed to be going on there that would require complaining about someone with a brutally honest personality.

cautions that Rosen's path could mirror that of Hackenberg: a brobdingnagian recruit who never got better in college and is now "just a guy" in the NFL.

I guess that is sort of reasonable. Both came in highly touted, and both had fairly big total passing numbers with limited efficiency frosh years. Then Hackenberg's performance nose dived but he got drafted because he looks like a QB. Rosen's performance didn't nose dive before he got hurt so much as level off. Rosen doesn't look quite so much like a Hollywood QB, but does look good throwing the ball in the pocket.

One scout says Rosen will eventually get "bored" with football, turn his sights to "changing the world" and be gone within four years.

I've never really seen much indication Rosen wanted to change the world. He did say,

I want to own the world.

Not exactly inspiring.

[BostonCard]

Well, one Stanford player disagrees with JR:

https://twitter.com/showtimeqm/status/89...9535949824

BC

[BostonCard]

Well, one Stanford player disagrees with JR:

https://twitter.com/showtimeqm/status/89...9535949824

BC

[Redrum]

That, and UCLA's environment really exposes the battle between academics and the pressure of money/fame foisted on student-athletes.  Maybe Rosen should spend less time on..."extracurricular" activities and more time on his studies and football.

The more extracurricular activities he's enjoying the more I like it.

[Redrum]

That, and UCLA's environment really exposes the battle between academics and the pressure of money/fame foisted on student-athletes.  Maybe Rosen should spend less time on..."extracurricular" activities and more time on his studies and football.

The more extracurricular activities he's enjoying the more I like it.

[needle]

David Shaw had quite a bit to say about Rosen's comments. He disagrees, as you might expect.

“So I think that’s an unfortunate comment that does not really apply to most places, because I think you can get a really good education anywhere. And it’s up to each individual student to play the best football they can, and to walk out of that college with a degree.”

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/08/08/st...osh-rosen/

[needle]

David Shaw had quite a bit to say about Rosen's comments. He disagrees, as you might expect.

“So I think that’s an unfortunate comment that does not really apply to most places, because I think you can get a really good education anywhere. And it’s up to each individual student to play the best football they can, and to walk out of that college with a degree.”

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/08/08/st...osh-rosen/

[Bruce Wang]

David Shaw had quite a bit to say about Rosen's comments. He disagrees, as you might expect.
...
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/08/08/st...osh-rosen/

Thanks for posting needle. I encourage everybody to read the article.  It exemplifies what a classy guy David Shaw is, and how proud I am that he represents our university on such a public stage.

[Bruce Wang]

David Shaw had quite a bit to say about Rosen's comments. He disagrees, as you might expect.
...
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/08/08/st...osh-rosen/

Thanks for posting needle. I encourage everybody to read the article.  It exemplifies what a classy guy David Shaw is, and how proud I am that he represents our university on such a public stage.

[TreesAndBirds]

Here is a 2015 article on a Pac12 survey of athletes about the effects of their sports' time demands on academics.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...fectively/

I think Rosen raises good points, even if overstated. And while I think the world of David Shaw, focusing on graduation rates isn't dispositive to me (although it's certainly relevant). And more importantly, Stanford may not be representative of the overall situation.

[TreesAndBirds]

Here is a 2015 article on a Pac12 survey of athletes about the effects of their sports' time demands on academics.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...fectively/

I think Rosen raises good points, even if overstated. And while I think the world of David Shaw, focusing on graduation rates isn't dispositive to me (although it's certainly relevant). And more importantly, Stanford may not be representative of the overall situation.

[CTcard]

And more importantly, Stanford may not be representative of the overall situation.

Let's not go too far out on a limb here.

[CTcard]

And more importantly, Stanford may not be representative of the overall situation.

Let's not go too far out on a limb here.

[ColoradoTree]

Here is a 2015 article on a Pac12 survey of athletes about the effects of their sports' time demands on academics.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...fectively/

I think Rosen raises good points, even if overstated. And while I think the world of David Shaw, focusing on graduation rates isn't dispositive to me (although it's certainly relevant). And more importantly, Stanford may not be representative of the overall situation.

I agree.  We're certainly not representative of the overall situation, and Stanford may be the exception that proves the rule.  But even though we have very smart players that get degrees and do well in their programs, that alone does not a true Stanford experience make.  When they sacrifice a social life and other extracurricular activities so they can study for their classes and practice for their sport, they are missing out on a key facet of college life.  I know I learned so much from conversations with my classmates and friends, and I wouldn't value my Stanford experience nearly as much if I'd missed out on those things. 

Beyond the social question, however, there's the question of whether our players' studies would benefit from more study time and less practice time.
I don't think the argument that "it can be done if all you do is study and practice" is a terribly strong one.  Sure, it can get one to a degree, and perhaps a good GPA.  But would they have done even better if they'd been able to spend, say, 10 more hours per week studying, doing some independent research, helping a professor with a research project, talking through thorny principles with a classmate, or doing an internship?  In my view, by saying that "it's really hard to balance the time, but you can get it done if you're motivated enough" is conceding that the balance between being a college student and being an athlete may not be correctly struck. 

[ColoradoTree]

Here is a 2015 article on a Pac12 survey of athletes about the effects of their sports' time demands on academics.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...fectively/

I think Rosen raises good points, even if overstated. And while I think the world of David Shaw, focusing on graduation rates isn't dispositive to me (although it's certainly relevant). And more importantly, Stanford may not be representative of the overall situation.

I agree.  We're certainly not representative of the overall situation, and Stanford may be the exception that proves the rule.  But even though we have very smart players that get degrees and do well in their programs, that alone does not a true Stanford experience make.  When they sacrifice a social life and other extracurricular activities so they can study for their classes and practice for their sport, they are missing out on a key facet of college life.  I know I learned so much from conversations with my classmates and friends, and I wouldn't value my Stanford experience nearly as much if I'd missed out on those things. 

Beyond the social question, however, there's the question of whether our players' studies would benefit from more study time and less practice time.
I don't think the argument that "it can be done if all you do is study and practice" is a terribly strong one.  Sure, it can get one to a degree, and perhaps a good GPA.  But would they have done even better if they'd been able to spend, say, 10 more hours per week studying, doing some independent research, helping a professor with a research project, talking through thorny principles with a classmate, or doing an internship?  In my view, by saying that "it's really hard to balance the time, but you can get it done if you're motivated enough" is conceding that the balance between being a college student and being an athlete may not be correctly struck. 

[CTcard]

But even though we have very smart players that get degrees and do well in their programs, that alone does not a true Stanford experience make. 

Well, one version of a true Stanford experience is doing well in classes and being extremely devoted to something else.

[CTcard]

But even though we have very smart players that get degrees and do well in their programs, that alone does not a true Stanford experience make. 

Well, one version of a true Stanford experience is doing well in classes and being extremely devoted to something else.

[ColoradoTree]

[quote author=ColoradoTree link=topic=17134.msg196795#msg196795 date=1502296890]
But even though we have very smart players that get degrees and do well in their programs, that alone does not a true Stanford experience make. 

Well, one version of a true Stanford experience is doing well in classes and being extremely devoted to something else.
[/quote]

There's still my second question, which asks whether our players could do even better with a less demanding football schedule.  I have to think the answer to that is yes.

[ColoradoTree]

[quote author=ColoradoTree link=topic=17134.msg196795#msg196795 date=1502296890]
But even though we have very smart players that get degrees and do well in their programs, that alone does not a true Stanford experience make. 

Well, one version of a true Stanford experience is doing well in classes and being extremely devoted to something else.
[/quote]

There's still my second question, which asks whether our players could do even better with a less demanding football schedule.  I have to think the answer to that is yes.

[fullmetal]

The age-old struggle between specialization and well-roundedness...this battle is waged secretly in the locked rooms of the admissions office as well.  We all want to work with well-rounded, pleasant, articulate people, and yet the glory of achievement is reserved for the deeply specialized and focused.

I think someone who gets Admissions' stamp of approval generally can balance those forces.  Following the Pareto Principle, maybe the trick is to spend just enough time experiencing the college life and making those memories before the demands of school and sports suffer.  I did a mediocre job of it, and I wish I had the discipline then as I do now to give it a go again. 

[fullmetal]

The age-old struggle between specialization and well-roundedness...this battle is waged secretly in the locked rooms of the admissions office as well.  We all want to work with well-rounded, pleasant, articulate people, and yet the glory of achievement is reserved for the deeply specialized and focused.

I think someone who gets Admissions' stamp of approval generally can balance those forces.  Following the Pareto Principle, maybe the trick is to spend just enough time experiencing the college life and making those memories before the demands of school and sports suffer.  I did a mediocre job of it, and I wish I had the discipline then as I do now to give it a go again. 

[Goose]

There's still my second question, which asks whether our players could do even better with a less demanding football schedule.  I have to think the answer to that is yes.

That very much depends on how one defines "better". I would argue that most of the guys out there would say there is nothing "better" than playing on Saturday.  Others may think going to the Opera or volunteering at a school is "better". YMMV.

[Goose]

There's still my second question, which asks whether our players could do even better with a less demanding football schedule.  I have to think the answer to that is yes.

That very much depends on how one defines "better". I would argue that most of the guys out there would say there is nothing "better" than playing on Saturday.  Others may think going to the Opera or volunteering at a school is "better". YMMV.

[ColoradoTree]

[quote author=ColoradoTree link=topic=17134.msg196798#msg196798 date=1502297870]
There's still my second question, which asks whether our players could do even better with a less demanding football schedule.  I have to think the answer to that is yes.

That very much depends on how one defines "better". I would argue that most of the guys out there would say there is nothing "better" than playing on Saturday.  Others may think going to the Opera or volunteering at a school is "better". YMMV.
[/quote]

For that question, I purely meant whether our players would do better academically--learning more, getting even better grades, understanding the content better--with a less demanding football schedule. 

[ColoradoTree]

[quote author=ColoradoTree link=topic=17134.msg196798#msg196798 date=1502297870]
There's still my second question, which asks whether our players could do even better with a less demanding football schedule.  I have to think the answer to that is yes.

That very much depends on how one defines "better". I would argue that most of the guys out there would say there is nothing "better" than playing on Saturday.  Others may think going to the Opera or volunteering at a school is "better". YMMV.
[/quote]

For that question, I purely meant whether our players would do better academically--learning more, getting even better grades, understanding the content better--with a less demanding football schedule. 

[ColoradoTree]

Note: this doesn't mean I think Stanford is doing a bad job at balancing school and football compared to other colleges.  I think we're the best in the country at it.  We're special, and we should be proud of what our student-athletes accomplish in the classroom and on the field.  But that's a separate question from whether we could be doing even better.  There's no easy answer, and we're certainly not going to unilaterally disarm and practice fewer hours, but if there are ways to further improve the student experience for our student-athletes, we should absolutely be doing that. 

I don't know anyone in either the athletic department or in the academic leadership of the university, but I trust they're asking themselves how they can continue to get better at striking the right balance. 

[ColoradoTree]

Note: this doesn't mean I think Stanford is doing a bad job at balancing school and football compared to other colleges.  I think we're the best in the country at it.  We're special, and we should be proud of what our student-athletes accomplish in the classroom and on the field.  But that's a separate question from whether we could be doing even better.  There's no easy answer, and we're certainly not going to unilaterally disarm and practice fewer hours, but if there are ways to further improve the student experience for our student-athletes, we should absolutely be doing that. 

I don't know anyone in either the athletic department or in the academic leadership of the university, but I trust they're asking themselves how they can continue to get better at striking the right balance. 

[pefloresjr]

I thought Rosen's comments were pretty accurate and he did express frustration that some colleges are more focused on simply keeping their players eligible rather than truly educating them.  Even with that, Rosen's comments bothered me a little because they seemed to show an attitude of entitlement.  Most students I've known have had conflicts in their schedules that required them to wait a year to take a class.  Each student has to work out their priorities and either let an activity go or wait until there is no conflict.  Josh Rosen is not being forced to play football. 

The other thing that bothered me a little was his complaint about the time it takes to play football and go to school.  I've got a chip on my shoulder about this because I worked about 30 hours a week my freshman and sophomore years and 30-50 hours a week (not counting commute time to 2nd job in San Jose) my junior and senior years.  Athletes commit as many hours to their sport but also get a lot of support and perks that regular students don't.  Rosen's comments feel like the whining of a person who does not seem to realize how lucky he is to be where he is.  There is no such thing as the perfect balance.  The old man in me wants him to quit whining and get to work.  Life is tough, find a way to get through it. 

Cheers,
Pete F.

[pefloresjr]

I thought Rosen's comments were pretty accurate and he did express frustration that some colleges are more focused on simply keeping their players eligible rather than truly educating them.  Even with that, Rosen's comments bothered me a little because they seemed to show an attitude of entitlement.  Most students I've known have had conflicts in their schedules that required them to wait a year to take a class.  Each student has to work out their priorities and either let an activity go or wait until there is no conflict.  Josh Rosen is not being forced to play football. 

The other thing that bothered me a little was his complaint about the time it takes to play football and go to school.  I've got a chip on my shoulder about this because I worked about 30 hours a week my freshman and sophomore years and 30-50 hours a week (not counting commute time to 2nd job in San Jose) my junior and senior years.  Athletes commit as many hours to their sport but also get a lot of support and perks that regular students don't.  Rosen's comments feel like the whining of a person who does not seem to realize how lucky he is to be where he is.  There is no such thing as the perfect balance.  The old man in me wants him to quit whining and get to work.  Life is tough, find a way to get through it. 

Cheers,
Pete F.

[JohnR34231]

I thought Rosen's comments were pretty accurate and he did express frustration that some colleges are more focused on simply keeping their players eligible rather than truly educating them.  Even with that, Rosen's comments bothered me a little because they seemed to show an attitude of entitlement.  Most students I've known have had conflicts in their schedules that required them to wait a year to take a class.  Each student has to work out their priorities and either let an activity go or wait until there is no conflict.  Josh Rosen is not being forced to play football. 

The other thing that bothered me a little was his complaint about the time it takes to play football and go to school.  I've got a chip on my shoulder about this because I worked about 30 hours a week my freshman and sophomore years and 30-50 hours a week (not counting commute time to 2nd job in San Jose) my junior and senior years.  Athletes commit as many hours to their sport but also get a lot of support and perks that regular students don't.  Rosen's comments feel like the whining of a person who does not seem to realize how lucky he is to be where he is.  There is no such thing as the perfect balance.  The old man in me wants him to quit whining and get to work.  Life is tough, find a way to get through it. 

Cheers,
Pete F.

Yeah, there are some kids who just don't have the intellectual horsepower to play football and be able to pass the courses to get themselves a meaningful degree. Josh does and should be thankful for it.

[JohnR34231]

I thought Rosen's comments were pretty accurate and he did express frustration that some colleges are more focused on simply keeping their players eligible rather than truly educating them.  Even with that, Rosen's comments bothered me a little because they seemed to show an attitude of entitlement.  Most students I've known have had conflicts in their schedules that required them to wait a year to take a class.  Each student has to work out their priorities and either let an activity go or wait until there is no conflict.  Josh Rosen is not being forced to play football. 

The other thing that bothered me a little was his complaint about the time it takes to play football and go to school.  I've got a chip on my shoulder about this because I worked about 30 hours a week my freshman and sophomore years and 30-50 hours a week (not counting commute time to 2nd job in San Jose) my junior and senior years.  Athletes commit as many hours to their sport but also get a lot of support and perks that regular students don't.  Rosen's comments feel like the whining of a person who does not seem to realize how lucky he is to be where he is.  There is no such thing as the perfect balance.  The old man in me wants him to quit whining and get to work.  Life is tough, find a way to get through it. 

Cheers,
Pete F.

Yeah, there are some kids who just don't have the intellectual horsepower to play football and be able to pass the courses to get themselves a meaningful degree. Josh does and should be thankful for it.

[TreesAndBirds]

I would argue that in many ways the time spent on athletics is more "costly" to the student athlete at Stanford than at many other schools.

At some schools my sense is that the structure and time commitment of athletics keeps kids away from problem activities (drinking, drugs, generally wasting time) and teachs them discipline, team work, etc. My sense is that the alternative for many if athletics took less of their life would not be the opera and extra curricular lectures.

But at Stanford, I think the opportunity cost for the athletes is much higher. They would likely be doing other productive things with their time.

But I am in no ways saying that Stanford athletes are making the wrong choice devoting so much time to athletics, but what I am saying is that in some ways they are giving up more.

[TreesAndBirds]

I would argue that in many ways the time spent on athletics is more "costly" to the student athlete at Stanford than at many other schools.

At some schools my sense is that the structure and time commitment of athletics keeps kids away from problem activities (drinking, drugs, generally wasting time) and teachs them discipline, team work, etc. My sense is that the alternative for many if athletics took less of their life would not be the opera and extra curricular lectures.

But at Stanford, I think the opportunity cost for the athletes is much higher. They would likely be doing other productive things with their time.

But I am in no ways saying that Stanford athletes are making the wrong choice devoting so much time to athletics, but what I am saying is that in some ways they are giving up more.

[desertcard]

I'd actually argue that being a D1 athlete in any sport and a student at Stanford don't mix too well these days. Last year the baseball team had 58 games.  Football plays on Thursday nights. The time commitment is close to a full time job. Yeah, yeah, I know, they get a Stanford degree and no one is making them do it and Stanford is a million times better at the Student-athlete thing than any other D1 school, but we should at least be honest about the fact that athletes here have a vastly different educational experience than their peers. Very few are able to go oversees. Very few can find time to participate in other extracurriculars. Athletes who play in the fall sacrifice summer job opportunities to train. Most athletes who go to med school have to postpone lab classes until after they graduate. It's no surprise that most Stanford athletes end up in the easier majors--not because they lack the intelligence, they lack the time. Still, there is no better place to be a serious student and a D1 athlete, but let's not kid ourselves about the quality of a Stanford athlete's "student" experience.

[desertcard]

I'd actually argue that being a D1 athlete in any sport and a student at Stanford don't mix too well these days. Last year the baseball team had 58 games.  Football plays on Thursday nights. The time commitment is close to a full time job. Yeah, yeah, I know, they get a Stanford degree and no one is making them do it and Stanford is a million times better at the Student-athlete thing than any other D1 school, but we should at least be honest about the fact that athletes here have a vastly different educational experience than their peers. Very few are able to go oversees. Very few can find time to participate in other extracurriculars. Athletes who play in the fall sacrifice summer job opportunities to train. Most athletes who go to med school have to postpone lab classes until after they graduate. It's no surprise that most Stanford athletes end up in the easier majors--not because they lack the intelligence, they lack the time. Still, there is no better place to be a serious student and a D1 athlete, but let's not kid ourselves about the quality of a Stanford athlete's "student" experience.