[Goose]

That would tend to undermine the coaches' evaluation of Chryst and Burns (and the decision to pass in '15), of course, rather than the development per se.

True. Burns, not as much, because he was regarded as a "project" and maybe expectations were lower. Chryst is harder to figure. There are examples of QBs who are accurate as heck in practice and just can't do it in games. It may be we have too small a sample, and it does appear he threw better as he got more reps in the game. This was true even in last year's spring game. So maybe I am overstating the problem. Still, it is worrying.
I don't know who has what input into evaluating QBs before deciding to offer. You would hope the QB coach has a lot of input, but we don't know. Some years there may be no good choices. There are plenty of QBs that have succeeded with limited accuracy. But not in Stanford's offense.

[Goose]

That would tend to undermine the coaches' evaluation of Chryst and Burns (and the decision to pass in '15), of course, rather than the development per se.

True. Burns, not as much, because he was regarded as a "project" and maybe expectations were lower. Chryst is harder to figure. There are examples of QBs who are accurate as heck in practice and just can't do it in games. It may be we have too small a sample, and it does appear he threw better as he got more reps in the game. This was true even in last year's spring game. So maybe I am overstating the problem. Still, it is worrying.
I don't know who has what input into evaluating QBs before deciding to offer. You would hope the QB coach has a lot of input, but we don't know. Some years there may be no good choices. There are plenty of QBs that have succeeded with limited accuracy. But not in Stanford's offense.

[AthleticsDynasty]

If Chryst can't go I think Mills plays, based on what people who watched Costello in HS have told me, I don't think he's starting caliber at least not yet.

[AthleticsDynasty]

If Chryst can't go I think Mills plays, based on what people who watched Costello in HS have told me, I don't think he's starting caliber at least not yet.

[stupac2]

(IIRC Mike Leach thinks the same way.)

I'm currently reading a book called The Perfect Pass that follows the development of spread/pass-first offenses through history, mostly through Hal Mumme. He definitely believed that you couldn't teach accuracy (or a quick release) and looked for that as his #1 priority when recruiting QBs. Leach was his OC, so I wouldn't be surprised if he also held that opinion.

[stupac2]

(IIRC Mike Leach thinks the same way.)

I'm currently reading a book called The Perfect Pass that follows the development of spread/pass-first offenses through history, mostly through Hal Mumme. He definitely believed that you couldn't teach accuracy (or a quick release) and looked for that as his #1 priority when recruiting QBs. Leach was his OC, so I wouldn't be surprised if he also held that opinion.

[winflop]

I realize he's injured, but why are people saying that Chryst hasn't been developed.  He has 2 years of eligibility left and his season (albeit against flimsy competition) was passable.  His PER this year was comparable to that of Josh Rosen, Jake Browning last year, or Jalen Hurts this year.  It's far from a top QB, but I wouldn't write him off either.

BC

Because he couldn't beat out Burns for the starting job, and Burns proved himself unworthy of the starting job.

[winflop]

I realize he's injured, but why are people saying that Chryst hasn't been developed.  He has 2 years of eligibility left and his season (albeit against flimsy competition) was passable.  His PER this year was comparable to that of Josh Rosen, Jake Browning last year, or Jalen Hurts this year.  It's far from a top QB, but I wouldn't write him off either.

BC

Because he couldn't beat out Burns for the starting job, and Burns proved himself unworthy of the starting job.

[ThePassionOfTheChryst]

Because he couldn't beat out Burns for the starting job

Well, not entirely true. He did beat out Burns for the starting job, it just happened midseason.

[ThePassionOfTheChryst]

Because he couldn't beat out Burns for the starting job

Well, not entirely true. He did beat out Burns for the starting job, it just happened midseason.

[JohnR34231]

[quote author=winflop link=topic=16429.msg186494#msg186494 date=1484483509]Because he couldn't beat out Burns for the starting job

Well, not entirely true. He did beat out Burns for the starting job, it just happened midseason.
[/quote]

It seems like we are getting into semantics here. Chryst got in there because Burns wasn't getting the job done. Is that "beating someone out". Depends on how you define it. I tend to think of it more as being based on head to head competition.

[JohnR34231]

[quote author=winflop link=topic=16429.msg186494#msg186494 date=1484483509]Because he couldn't beat out Burns for the starting job

Well, not entirely true. He did beat out Burns for the starting job, it just happened midseason.
[/quote]

It seems like we are getting into semantics here. Chryst got in there because Burns wasn't getting the job done. Is that "beating someone out". Depends on how you define it. I tend to think of it more as being based on head to head competition.

[winflop]

[quote author=ThePOC link=topic=16429.msg186495#msg186495 date=1484483717]
[quote author=winflop link=topic=16429.msg186494#msg186494 date=1484483509]Because he couldn't beat out Burns for the starting job

Well, not entirely true. He did beat out Burns for the starting job, it just happened midseason.
[/quote]

It seems like we are getting into semantics here. Chryst got in there because Burns wasn't getting the job done. Is that "beating someone out". Depends on how you define it. I tend to think of it more as being based on head to head competition.
[/quote]

Burns won the starting job over Chryst in camp.  Chryst only got to be the starter because Burns didn't work out as the starter.

[winflop]

[quote author=ThePOC link=topic=16429.msg186495#msg186495 date=1484483717]
[quote author=winflop link=topic=16429.msg186494#msg186494 date=1484483509]Because he couldn't beat out Burns for the starting job

Well, not entirely true. He did beat out Burns for the starting job, it just happened midseason.
[/quote]

It seems like we are getting into semantics here. Chryst got in there because Burns wasn't getting the job done. Is that "beating someone out". Depends on how you define it. I tend to think of it more as being based on head to head competition.
[/quote]

Burns won the starting job over Chryst in camp.  Chryst only got to be the starter because Burns didn't work out as the starter.

[ATLCard]

Seems strange to say the proof that Chryst didn't develop is his performance in camp.  There is a body of live game experience from which to make that judgment and clearly he was significantly better in his last couple games than in his first couple games; and by the end of the season looked like a legitimate starter.  If he doesn't get hurt I think we blow out UNC in the Sun Bowl, even without CMAC.  What's the definition of developing?

[ATLCard]

Seems strange to say the proof that Chryst didn't develop is his performance in camp.  There is a body of live game experience from which to make that judgment and clearly he was significantly better in his last couple games than in his first couple games; and by the end of the season looked like a legitimate starter.  If he doesn't get hurt I think we blow out UNC in the Sun Bowl, even without CMAC.  What's the definition of developing?

[Extra Point]

What's the definition of developing?

For most people here, this means performing at the level we are accustomed to at stanford and the other Pac 12 contenders.

[Extra Point]

What's the definition of developing?

For most people here, this means performing at the level we are accustomed to at stanford and the other Pac 12 contenders.

[Goose]

Seems strange to say the proof that Chryst didn't develop is his performance in camp.  There is a body of live game experience from which to make that judgment and clearly he was significantly better in his last couple games than in his first couple games;

I agree. There is clear evidence he improved during the year.

and by the end of the season looked like a legitimate starter.

I think this is debatable. Like lots of young QBs, he had times when he looked great, and time where he looked pretty bad. The problem is that in Stanford's
offense, you have to reliably take what is there. You don't need to have a cannon (nice, but not required). But you do need to find and hit the open receiver (if any), and not make a big mistake. Chryst didn't make the big mistake much, but he missed a lot of adequately open guys by making a bad to not-so-good throw.  This accuracy and, to some extent, decision making is where the "development" could be at issue. Now, we can't expect perfection from a first-year starter. But we can expect competence. I would say it is not clearly "bad", but also not clearly "good", or even "OK". Jury still deliberating. Was he the worst QB in the conference? Probably not, but that isn't the standard.

[Goose]

Seems strange to say the proof that Chryst didn't develop is his performance in camp.  There is a body of live game experience from which to make that judgment and clearly he was significantly better in his last couple games than in his first couple games;

I agree. There is clear evidence he improved during the year.

and by the end of the season looked like a legitimate starter.

I think this is debatable. Like lots of young QBs, he had times when he looked great, and time where he looked pretty bad. The problem is that in Stanford's
offense, you have to reliably take what is there. You don't need to have a cannon (nice, but not required). But you do need to find and hit the open receiver (if any), and not make a big mistake. Chryst didn't make the big mistake much, but he missed a lot of adequately open guys by making a bad to not-so-good throw.  This accuracy and, to some extent, decision making is where the "development" could be at issue. Now, we can't expect perfection from a first-year starter. But we can expect competence. I would say it is not clearly "bad", but also not clearly "good", or even "OK". Jury still deliberating. Was he the worst QB in the conference? Probably not, but that isn't the standard.

[Goose]

Chryst got in there because Burns wasn't getting the job done.

I agree. But I think it was more specific than that. It wasn't that we were not scoring much, although I am certain that was a factor. What cost Burns his job was turnovers and mental mistakes. I think with coach Shaw, you are given a lot of leeway regarding your performance as a QB. Many believe that he has shown excessive patience with QBs that weren't cutting it. However, the number 1 thing you CAN'T do is turn the ball over. Interceptions are real bad, fumbles are worse. Mental mistakes added to turnovers are a certain pink slip. Burns just fell apart against Colorado.

[Goose]

Chryst got in there because Burns wasn't getting the job done.

I agree. But I think it was more specific than that. It wasn't that we were not scoring much, although I am certain that was a factor. What cost Burns his job was turnovers and mental mistakes. I think with coach Shaw, you are given a lot of leeway regarding your performance as a QB. Many believe that he has shown excessive patience with QBs that weren't cutting it. However, the number 1 thing you CAN'T do is turn the ball over. Interceptions are real bad, fumbles are worse. Mental mistakes added to turnovers are a certain pink slip. Burns just fell apart against Colorado.

[ATLCard]

OK, I agree with "jury still deliberating" on how good Chryst is or could be.  I am reacting to comments writing him off as someone who didn't develop.  Not fair as he clearly improved over his starts and I was looking forward to seeing the improvement continue.  Tough for him and the team that looks unlikely for next year.

[ATLCard]

OK, I agree with "jury still deliberating" on how good Chryst is or could be.  I am reacting to comments writing him off as someone who didn't develop.  Not fair as he clearly improved over his starts and I was looking forward to seeing the improvement continue.  Tough for him and the team that looks unlikely for next year.

[Goose]

OK, I agree with "jury still deliberating" on how good Chryst is or could be.  I am reacting to comments writing him off as someone who didn't develop.  Not fair as he clearly improved over his starts and I was looking forward to seeing the improvement continue.  Tough for him and the team that looks unlikely for next year.

Completely agree. What I was reacting against was the idea that the coaching staff calmly decided Chryst had surpassed Burns by some methodical evaluation process. I think it was more like "We simply can't have a QB that makes bad choices, fumbles, and throws 'bad' interceptions. So try the other guy, we don't know what will happen, but we do know we can't keep going down this road". I contrast this decision to the USC decision to start Darnold, which I think wasn't so much based on bad play by Browne, but rather the fact they were losing steadily.

[Goose]

OK, I agree with "jury still deliberating" on how good Chryst is or could be.  I am reacting to comments writing him off as someone who didn't develop.  Not fair as he clearly improved over his starts and I was looking forward to seeing the improvement continue.  Tough for him and the team that looks unlikely for next year.

Completely agree. What I was reacting against was the idea that the coaching staff calmly decided Chryst had surpassed Burns by some methodical evaluation process. I think it was more like "We simply can't have a QB that makes bad choices, fumbles, and throws 'bad' interceptions. So try the other guy, we don't know what will happen, but we do know we can't keep going down this road". I contrast this decision to the USC decision to start Darnold, which I think wasn't so much based on bad play by Browne, but rather the fact they were losing steadily.