[CornFed]

I haven't read the whole assessment, but was struck that this Athlon article ranks Jim Harbaugh as #3 and David Shaw at #8.  Here's what is said about each:

Jim Harbaugh

As expected, it didn’t take long for Harbaugh to return Michigan back among the nation's best. The Wolverines finished 10-3 in Harbaugh’s first season – a five-game improvement from the previous year.

more

David Shaw

Stanford’s rigid academic standards are no secret, but the tough admissions and smaller prospect pool hasn’t stopped Shaw from transforming this program into a top 10-15 team nationally on an annual basis.

more

[CornFed]

I haven't read the whole assessment, but was struck that this Athlon article ranks Jim Harbaugh as #3 and David Shaw at #8.  Here's what is said about each:

Jim Harbaugh

As expected, it didn’t take long for Harbaugh to return Michigan back among the nation's best. The Wolverines finished 10-3 in Harbaugh’s first season – a five-game improvement from the previous year.

more

David Shaw

Stanford’s rigid academic standards are no secret, but the tough admissions and smaller prospect pool hasn’t stopped Shaw from transforming this program into a top 10-15 team nationally on an annual basis.

more

[CTcard]

I haven't read the whole assessment, but was struck that it ranks Jim Harbaugh as #3 and David Shaw at #8.

While any such rating is obviously an exercise in extreme arbitrariness, it makes me think about how much the quality of a coach is really an independent phenomenon.

With Harbaugh, I don't think there is anything very institution-specific about his strengths and abilities. At least for the short term, I think he could walk in just about anywhere and make an under-performing team better.

David Shaw appears to be a great coach for Stanford. However, I am not completely convinced that he would necessarily be a great coach just anywhere.
Of course I hope to not find out anything about that question one way or the other.

[CTcard]

I haven't read the whole assessment, but was struck that it ranks Jim Harbaugh as #3 and David Shaw at #8.

While any such rating is obviously an exercise in extreme arbitrariness, it makes me think about how much the quality of a coach is really an independent phenomenon.

With Harbaugh, I don't think there is anything very institution-specific about his strengths and abilities. At least for the short term, I think he could walk in just about anywhere and make an under-performing team better.

David Shaw appears to be a great coach for Stanford. However, I am not completely convinced that he would necessarily be a great coach just anywhere.
Of course I hope to not find out anything about that question one way or the other.

[Hulk01]

That may be a fair assessment of Shaw.

What we know about Harbaugh is that he is a turnaround artist; the sample is large enough.  There is reason to wait before deciding he is significantly more than that.  And I say significantly; he clearly can coach, but I wouldn't be among those who say there are only two better coaches in college football.

[Hulk01]

That may be a fair assessment of Shaw.

What we know about Harbaugh is that he is a turnaround artist; the sample is large enough.  There is reason to wait before deciding he is significantly more than that.  And I say significantly; he clearly can coach, but I wouldn't be among those who say there are only two better coaches in college football.

[gocard14]

That may be a fair assessment of Shaw.

What we know about Harbaugh is that he is a turnaround artist; the sample is large enough.  There is reason to wait before deciding he is significantly more than that.  And I say significantly; he clearly can coach, but I wouldn't be among those who say there are only two better coaches in college football.

Who else other then Saban and Meyer would you put above Harbaugh? He took one of the worst fbs teams and turned it into one of the best, and woke up a sleeping giant in Michigan. He recruits well, has interesting schematic wrinkles, and is a great talent evaluator (for coaches I mean, for recruits he seems to offer everyone good and see who sticks). The only thing he has yet to show is that he can sustain success over an extended period of time.

The only other coaches j could think to put ahead of him would be D'antonio, Sweeney, or Shaw, but any of those would be a tough sell.

[gocard14]

That may be a fair assessment of Shaw.

What we know about Harbaugh is that he is a turnaround artist; the sample is large enough.  There is reason to wait before deciding he is significantly more than that.  And I say significantly; he clearly can coach, but I wouldn't be among those who say there are only two better coaches in college football.

Who else other then Saban and Meyer would you put above Harbaugh? He took one of the worst fbs teams and turned it into one of the best, and woke up a sleeping giant in Michigan. He recruits well, has interesting schematic wrinkles, and is a great talent evaluator (for coaches I mean, for recruits he seems to offer everyone good and see who sticks). The only thing he has yet to show is that he can sustain success over an extended period of time.

The only other coaches j could think to put ahead of him would be D'antonio, Sweeney, or Shaw, but any of those would be a tough sell.

[stupac2]

woke up a sleeping giant in Michigan

How on earth can we assert that? Michigan didn't even win their division, let alone their conference, let alone a big six bowl, let alone a championship. He did better than Hoke, sure, but one year seems awfully fast to jump to that conclusion.

[stupac2]

woke up a sleeping giant in Michigan

How on earth can we assert that? Michigan didn't even win their division, let alone their conference, let alone a big six bowl, let alone a championship. He did better than Hoke, sure, but one year seems awfully fast to jump to that conclusion.

[fullmetal]

We can certainly assert that Michigan went from non-competitive to being very competitive in a short span.  Michigan is trending up because of Jim Harbaugh, and that is indisputable (though how he handles attrition this year may be interesting).

Harbaugh's personality may make him harder to coexist with on a long-term scale--maybe he's just going to be the greatest turnaround artist, but maybe he can't stick around long term anywhere either.

[fullmetal]

We can certainly assert that Michigan went from non-competitive to being very competitive in a short span.  Michigan is trending up because of Jim Harbaugh, and that is indisputable (though how he handles attrition this year may be interesting).

Harbaugh's personality may make him harder to coexist with on a long-term scale--maybe he's just going to be the greatest turnaround artist, but maybe he can't stick around long term anywhere either.

[stupac2]

We can certainly assert that Michigan went from non-competitive to being very competitive in a short span.  Michigan is trending up because of Jim Harbaugh, and that is indisputable (though how he handles attrition this year may be interesting).

Harbaugh's personality may make him harder to coexist with on a long-term scale--maybe he's just going to be the greatest turnaround artist, but maybe he can't stick around long term anywhere either.

And Hoke went 11-2 his first year, winning the Sugar Bowl, demonstrably better than Harbaugh's first year. Shockingly, one year is not enough to judge a coach!

[stupac2]

We can certainly assert that Michigan went from non-competitive to being very competitive in a short span.  Michigan is trending up because of Jim Harbaugh, and that is indisputable (though how he handles attrition this year may be interesting).

Harbaugh's personality may make him harder to coexist with on a long-term scale--maybe he's just going to be the greatest turnaround artist, but maybe he can't stick around long term anywhere either.

And Hoke went 11-2 his first year, winning the Sugar Bowl, demonstrably better than Harbaugh's first year. Shockingly, one year is not enough to judge a coach!

[Mick]

[quote author=gocard14 link=topic=15225.msg165388#msg165388 date=1466619970]woke up a sleeping giant in Michigan

How on earth can we assert that? Michigan didn't even win their division, let alone their conference, let alone a big six bowl, let alone a championship. He did better than Hoke, sure, but one year seems awfully fast to jump to that conclusion.
[/quote]

Well, let's review.  Harbaugh finished 9-3 in the regular season.  They lost a game at Michigan State on the flukiest of fluke plays.  They lost 24-17 to Utah AT Utah in a night game where they were playing past midnight, body clock-time wise in the first game of the season.  The only blowout was to Ohio State.  They could have easily gone 11-1.  And they crunched Florida, 41-7 in the Citrus Bowl.

In the prior decade, Michigan only had one team that did as well as Harbaugh's team in 2015.  Hoke went 11-2 in his first year, and his record got worse every year after that.

[Mick]

[quote author=gocard14 link=topic=15225.msg165388#msg165388 date=1466619970]woke up a sleeping giant in Michigan

How on earth can we assert that? Michigan didn't even win their division, let alone their conference, let alone a big six bowl, let alone a championship. He did better than Hoke, sure, but one year seems awfully fast to jump to that conclusion.
[/quote]

Well, let's review.  Harbaugh finished 9-3 in the regular season.  They lost a game at Michigan State on the flukiest of fluke plays.  They lost 24-17 to Utah AT Utah in a night game where they were playing past midnight, body clock-time wise in the first game of the season.  The only blowout was to Ohio State.  They could have easily gone 11-1.  And they crunched Florida, 41-7 in the Citrus Bowl.

In the prior decade, Michigan only had one team that did as well as Harbaugh's team in 2015.  Hoke went 11-2 in his first year, and his record got worse every year after that.

[FarmBoy]

Plus, Harbaugh has an incredible track record prior to turning Michigan around. The work he did at SD, Stanford and the 49ers all support the claim that he's a top coach. Brady Hoke's track record prior to his first year a UM was not nearly as strong. In fact, he basically leveraged one good year at Ball St to get to SD State and one good year at SD State to get to UM.

[FarmBoy]

Plus, Harbaugh has an incredible track record prior to turning Michigan around. The work he did at SD, Stanford and the 49ers all support the claim that he's a top coach. Brady Hoke's track record prior to his first year a UM was not nearly as strong. In fact, he basically leveraged one good year at Ball St to get to SD State and one good year at SD State to get to UM.

[washingtonismoney]

Agreed with Mick -- Hoke's first season was flukey; Harbaugh's appears not to be. Of course that doesn't determine what he'll do in years 2-5 (or whatever time frame), but you have to give Harbaugh a lot of credit so far.

[washingtonismoney]

Agreed with Mick -- Hoke's first season was flukey; Harbaugh's appears not to be. Of course that doesn't determine what he'll do in years 2-5 (or whatever time frame), but you have to give Harbaugh a lot of credit so far.

[stupac2]

Right, I'm not saying that Harbaugh is a bad coach, I'm just saying that it's wildly premature to say that he's clearly woken up the sleeping giant in Michigan. There's good reason to believe that he'll continue to produce good results, but it shouldn't be shocking if they revert back to 8-5-ish seasons, though given how completely crappy the B1G is after the top few teams, maybe it would be surprising.

[stupac2]

Right, I'm not saying that Harbaugh is a bad coach, I'm just saying that it's wildly premature to say that he's clearly woken up the sleeping giant in Michigan. There's good reason to believe that he'll continue to produce good results, but it shouldn't be shocking if they revert back to 8-5-ish seasons, though given how completely crappy the B1G is after the top few teams, maybe it would be surprising.

[CTcard]

Well, let's review.  Harbaugh finished 9-3 in the regular season.  They lost a game at Michigan State on the flukiest of fluke plays.  They lost 24-17 to Utah AT Utah in a night game where they were playing past midnight, body clock-time wise in the first game of the season.  The only blowout was to Ohio State.  They could have easily gone 11-1.  And they crunched Florida, 41-7 in the Citrus Bowl.

Have to say I don't really like reviewing a season with hints that a team maybe didn't really lose the games it lost.

Yes, Michigan lost in a fluke finish to MSU. However, overall in that game MSU had the better of play. For example, MSU outgained Mich by 386-230.

Along with their two close losses, Michigan had two close wins. A 2 OT win vs Indiana and a 29-26 win over Minnesota where Minnesota tried for a TD at the 1 inch line on the last play of the game and failed - in a game where Minnesota outgained UM by 461-296 but lost TOs 0-2.

Overall, it's not as if UM had some historic level of having all the bounces go against them.

But, it doesn't matter. UM went 10-3 a season after going 5-7. Isn't that enough?

[CTcard]

Well, let's review.  Harbaugh finished 9-3 in the regular season.  They lost a game at Michigan State on the flukiest of fluke plays.  They lost 24-17 to Utah AT Utah in a night game where they were playing past midnight, body clock-time wise in the first game of the season.  The only blowout was to Ohio State.  They could have easily gone 11-1.  And they crunched Florida, 41-7 in the Citrus Bowl.

Have to say I don't really like reviewing a season with hints that a team maybe didn't really lose the games it lost.

Yes, Michigan lost in a fluke finish to MSU. However, overall in that game MSU had the better of play. For example, MSU outgained Mich by 386-230.

Along with their two close losses, Michigan had two close wins. A 2 OT win vs Indiana and a 29-26 win over Minnesota where Minnesota tried for a TD at the 1 inch line on the last play of the game and failed - in a game where Minnesota outgained UM by 461-296 but lost TOs 0-2.

Overall, it's not as if UM had some historic level of having all the bounces go against them.

But, it doesn't matter. UM went 10-3 a season after going 5-7. Isn't that enough?

[fullmetal]

Or, Harbaugh does this at Stanford, the 49ers, and now maybe at Michigan, but wait--maybe not Michigan.  Clearly a sleeping giant has not been woken...just a fluky twitch during a dream.  Back to mediocrity next year!

Actually, I think Michigan is overrated as a top-5 team that I've seen pundits predicting them to be next season, but hey, many Michigan fans = lots of eyeballs, right?

[fullmetal]

Or, Harbaugh does this at Stanford, the 49ers, and now maybe at Michigan, but wait--maybe not Michigan.  Clearly a sleeping giant has not been woken...just a fluky twitch during a dream.  Back to mediocrity next year!

Actually, I think Michigan is overrated as a top-5 team that I've seen pundits predicting them to be next season, but hey, many Michigan fans = lots of eyeballs, right?

[TreesAndBirds]

The pac 12 rankings.....

https://athlonsports.com/college-footbal...aches-2016

[TreesAndBirds]

The pac 12 rankings.....

https://athlonsports.com/college-footbal...aches-2016

[martyup]

I wish Shaw was ranked #89 and considered a poor prospect for an NFL head coach.

[martyup]

I wish Shaw was ranked #89 and considered a poor prospect for an NFL head coach.

[Hulk01]

It's impressive to consider that the 11th best coach in a 12 team conference is Mark McIntyre.  Overall, the conference can make a case for being the best-coached.  How many SEC coaches would you trade for McIntyre or Anderson? 

Very impressive.

[Hulk01]

It's impressive to consider that the 11th best coach in a 12 team conference is Mark McIntyre.  Overall, the conference can make a case for being the best-coached.  How many SEC coaches would you trade for McIntyre or Anderson? 

Very impressive.

[stupac2]

I wish Shaw was ranked #89 and considered a poor prospect for an NFL head coach.

...Why? That means we would have had something like Cal's last few years. Do you want that?

[stupac2]

I wish Shaw was ranked #89 and considered a poor prospect for an NFL head coach.

...Why? That means we would have had something like Cal's last few years. Do you want that?

[FarmBoy]

I'm pretty sure martyup wants to have his cake and eat it too. There are scenarios where a team is doing really well but the NFL/NBA pundits don't think the the coach could make the transition, most often when they're running some sort of non-standard offense.

[FarmBoy]

I'm pretty sure martyup wants to have his cake and eat it too. There are scenarios where a team is doing really well but the NFL/NBA pundits don't think the the coach could make the transition, most often when they're running some sort of non-standard offense.

[BostonCard]

I like that the rankings didn't give into hype (except maybe about Petersen), and put Mora at 8, Dykes at 10, and Helton at (LOL) 12.  Helfrich at 7 seems a bit low for someone a year removed from the National Championship game, but it sounds like they are giving credit to Mariotta, and openly questioning whether Helfrich can manage the post-Mariotta era as deftly as Shaw managed the post-Luck era (Nunes aside, you gotta give credit to Shaw for being successful over the course of multiple seasons).  Still, I would think he would rate above the Arizona boys.  I like Wittingham as a top-3 coach; he deserves it. 

BC

[BostonCard]

I like that the rankings didn't give into hype (except maybe about Petersen), and put Mora at 8, Dykes at 10, and Helton at (LOL) 12.  Helfrich at 7 seems a bit low for someone a year removed from the National Championship game, but it sounds like they are giving credit to Mariotta, and openly questioning whether Helfrich can manage the post-Mariotta era as deftly as Shaw managed the post-Luck era (Nunes aside, you gotta give credit to Shaw for being successful over the course of multiple seasons).  Still, I would think he would rate above the Arizona boys.  I like Wittingham as a top-3 coach; he deserves it. 

BC

[CTcard]

It's impressive to consider that the 11th best coach in a 12 team conference is Mark McIntyre.  Overall, the conference can make a case for being the best-coached.  How many SEC coaches would you trade for McIntyre or Anderson? 

Very impressive.

While I think that for the most part, the Pac 12 coaches are pretty decent I don't really think that MacIntyre being 11th on this particular list means all that much.

First of all, it's not clear to me whether to put in stock in this list. Is there any reason to believe these guys have any deep insight?

Secondly, while my general impression of MacIntyre is positive (and thought he was a better candidate than Dykes in 2012/13), his resume is really rather thin.

In six years as a head coach, he has had a total of one winning season.
Now he had to do some building to have that one good season at SJS, and my understanding is that he did some strong work there dragging the football team out of the academic dumpster - but still one career winning season is not quite awe-inspiring. Colorado seems to be getting better, but so far their maximum Pac 12 conference wins in a season is one.

[CTcard]

It's impressive to consider that the 11th best coach in a 12 team conference is Mark McIntyre.  Overall, the conference can make a case for being the best-coached.  How many SEC coaches would you trade for McIntyre or Anderson? 

Very impressive.

While I think that for the most part, the Pac 12 coaches are pretty decent I don't really think that MacIntyre being 11th on this particular list means all that much.

First of all, it's not clear to me whether to put in stock in this list. Is there any reason to believe these guys have any deep insight?

Secondly, while my general impression of MacIntyre is positive (and thought he was a better candidate than Dykes in 2012/13), his resume is really rather thin.

In six years as a head coach, he has had a total of one winning season.
Now he had to do some building to have that one good season at SJS, and my understanding is that he did some strong work there dragging the football team out of the academic dumpster - but still one career winning season is not quite awe-inspiring. Colorado seems to be getting better, but so far their maximum Pac 12 conference wins in a season is one.