[71Bear]

Actually, Terry is right and wrong.  Upon graduating from high school, his interpretation of the Master Plan is accurate.  Where he goes off the rails is what happens during/after junior college.  Junior college offers three tracks, UC, State University and vocational.  If a student takes the UC track courses and meets the necessary grade requirement, they are admitted to a UC campus.  Many of us gained admittance to my Alma Mater that manner. 

In others words, my Alma Mater is not a school exclusively reserved for the top 12.5% of the state's high school students. 

Also, my Alma Mater as a public institution should (and does) make exceptions.  2% of the annual admissions are reserved for students that do not meet the criteria noted in the Master Plan.  Soon the Supreme Court will rule on the issue of admitting students to public institutions based upon race.  That would be a game changer for UC if the Court rules in favor of the defendants (Fisher v. U of Texas)...

[71Bear]

Actually, Terry is right and wrong.  Upon graduating from high school, his interpretation of the Master Plan is accurate.  Where he goes off the rails is what happens during/after junior college.  Junior college offers three tracks, UC, State University and vocational.  If a student takes the UC track courses and meets the necessary grade requirement, they are admitted to a UC campus.  Many of us gained admittance to my Alma Mater that manner. 

In others words, my Alma Mater is not a school exclusively reserved for the top 12.5% of the state's high school students. 

Also, my Alma Mater as a public institution should (and does) make exceptions.  2% of the annual admissions are reserved for students that do not meet the criteria noted in the Master Plan.  Soon the Supreme Court will rule on the issue of admitting students to public institutions based upon race.  That would be a game changer for UC if the Court rules in favor of the defendants (Fisher v. U of Texas)...

[71Bear]

Actually, Terry is right and wrong.  Upon graduating from high school, his interpretation of the Master Plan is accurate.  Where he goes off the rails is what happens during/after junior college.  Junior college offers three tracks, UC, State University and vocational.  If a student takes the UC track courses and meets the necessary grade requirement, they are admitted to a UC campus.  Many of us gained admittance to my Alma Mater that manner. 

In others words, my Alma Mater is not a school exclusively reserved for the top 12.5% of the state's high school students. 

Also, my Alma Mater as a public institution should (and does) make exceptions.  2% of the annual admissions are reserved for students that do not meet the criteria noted in the Master Plan.  Soon the Supreme Court will rule on the issue of admitting students to public institutions based upon race.  That would be a game changer for UC if the Court rules in favor of the defendants (Fisher v. U of Texas)...

[71Bear]

Actually, Terry is right and wrong.  Upon graduating from high school, his interpretation of the Master Plan is accurate.  Where he goes off the rails is what happens during/after junior college.  Junior college offers three tracks, UC, State University and vocational.  If a student takes the UC track courses and meets the necessary grade requirement, they are admitted to a UC campus.  Many of us gained admittance to my Alma Mater that manner. 

In others words, my Alma Mater is not a school exclusively reserved for the top 12.5% of the state's high school students. 

Also, my Alma Mater as a public institution should (and does) make exceptions.  2% of the annual admissions are reserved for students that do not meet the criteria noted in the Master Plan.  Soon the Supreme Court will rule on the issue of admitting students to public institutions based upon race.  That would be a game changer for UC if the Court rules in favor of the defendants (Fisher v. U of Texas)...

[terry]

But that's my point, 71Bear. UC Berkeley does not have the mission of reaching down to give an opportunity to academically marginal students. That is the mission of the community colleges. Then, if the student can demonstrate in the community college that he can get his academics up to the UC level, he can transfer to a UC campus. But he only gets to transfer to UC once he has proved he's UC material. It's not the mission of UC Berkeley to admit inadequate students and hope they will somehow magically be transformed into UC-level students. They're supposed to prove first that they are worthy of UC, either by their high school performance or by their community college performance. So, I'm not persuaded by the assertion that it's UC Berkeley's mission as a public school to give inadequate students an opportunity.

[terry]

But that's my point, 71Bear. UC Berkeley does not have the mission of reaching down to give an opportunity to academically marginal students. That is the mission of the community colleges. Then, if the student can demonstrate in the community college that he can get his academics up to the UC level, he can transfer to a UC campus. But he only gets to transfer to UC once he has proved he's UC material. It's not the mission of UC Berkeley to admit inadequate students and hope they will somehow magically be transformed into UC-level students. They're supposed to prove first that they are worthy of UC, either by their high school performance or by their community college performance. So, I'm not persuaded by the assertion that it's UC Berkeley's mission as a public school to give inadequate students an opportunity.

[terry]

But that's my point, 71Bear. UC Berkeley does not have the mission of reaching down to give an opportunity to academically marginal students. That is the mission of the community colleges. Then, if the student can demonstrate in the community college that he can get his academics up to the UC level, he can transfer to a UC campus. But he only gets to transfer to UC once he has proved he's UC material. It's not the mission of UC Berkeley to admit inadequate students and hope they will somehow magically be transformed into UC-level students. They're supposed to prove first that they are worthy of UC, either by their high school performance or by their community college performance. So, I'm not persuaded by the assertion that it's UC Berkeley's mission as a public school to give inadequate students an opportunity.

[terry]

But that's my point, 71Bear. UC Berkeley does not have the mission of reaching down to give an opportunity to academically marginal students. That is the mission of the community colleges. Then, if the student can demonstrate in the community college that he can get his academics up to the UC level, he can transfer to a UC campus. But he only gets to transfer to UC once he has proved he's UC material. It's not the mission of UC Berkeley to admit inadequate students and hope they will somehow magically be transformed into UC-level students. They're supposed to prove first that they are worthy of UC, either by their high school performance or by their community college performance. So, I'm not persuaded by the assertion that it's UC Berkeley's mission as a public school to give inadequate students an opportunity.

[Redrum]

"2% of the annual admissions are reserved for students that do not meet the criteria noted in the Master Plan" 

Finally, a metric.  Does that 2% include athletes?  Assuming that each campus gets an equal percentage,  that would mean UCB can admit approx. 265 of these students in each freshman class.  So, unless the only special qualifying ability that is considered happens to be athleticism, there must be some of these other special students on campus.  Raises the question, how are those other, special non-athletes doing?  What is their graduation success rate?  Is it as abysmal as the rate for football players? 

[Redrum]

"2% of the annual admissions are reserved for students that do not meet the criteria noted in the Master Plan" 

Finally, a metric.  Does that 2% include athletes?  Assuming that each campus gets an equal percentage,  that would mean UCB can admit approx. 265 of these students in each freshman class.  So, unless the only special qualifying ability that is considered happens to be athleticism, there must be some of these other special students on campus.  Raises the question, how are those other, special non-athletes doing?  What is their graduation success rate?  Is it as abysmal as the rate for football players? 

[Redrum]

"2% of the annual admissions are reserved for students that do not meet the criteria noted in the Master Plan" 

Finally, a metric.  Does that 2% include athletes?  Assuming that each campus gets an equal percentage,  that would mean UCB can admit approx. 265 of these students in each freshman class.  So, unless the only special qualifying ability that is considered happens to be athleticism, there must be some of these other special students on campus.  Raises the question, how are those other, special non-athletes doing?  What is their graduation success rate?  Is it as abysmal as the rate for football players? 

[Redrum]

"2% of the annual admissions are reserved for students that do not meet the criteria noted in the Master Plan" 

Finally, a metric.  Does that 2% include athletes?  Assuming that each campus gets an equal percentage,  that would mean UCB can admit approx. 265 of these students in each freshman class.  So, unless the only special qualifying ability that is considered happens to be athleticism, there must be some of these other special students on campus.  Raises the question, how are those other, special non-athletes doing?  What is their graduation success rate?  Is it as abysmal as the rate for football players? 

[terry]

Ca.l needs to have a football team that excites fans to pay for and support it and all its intendant costs.  Absent great athletes like McKinley, Ca.l won't be able to generate the revenue it needs, and California tax payers will pay the price.  So he takes the place of a "more deserving" kid (who was likely given more opportunities to succeed).

You're saying that Ca.l admits academically marginal football players because it wants to have a good football team so it can make money. In other words, Ca.l admits academically marginal players so they can be entertainers. At the same time, the university says it is committed to graduating its players. I guess I question whether Ca.l really can have it both ways. If Ca.l really wants to improve its graduation rates, it may need to adjust its admissions standards.

[terry]

Ca.l needs to have a football team that excites fans to pay for and support it and all its intendant costs.  Absent great athletes like McKinley, Ca.l won't be able to generate the revenue it needs, and California tax payers will pay the price.  So he takes the place of a "more deserving" kid (who was likely given more opportunities to succeed).

You're saying that Ca.l admits academically marginal football players because it wants to have a good football team so it can make money. In other words, Ca.l admits academically marginal players so they can be entertainers. At the same time, the university says it is committed to graduating its players. I guess I question whether Ca.l really can have it both ways. If Ca.l really wants to improve its graduation rates, it may need to adjust its admissions standards.

[terry]

Ca.l needs to have a football team that excites fans to pay for and support it and all its intendant costs.  Absent great athletes like McKinley, Ca.l won't be able to generate the revenue it needs, and California tax payers will pay the price.  So he takes the place of a "more deserving" kid (who was likely given more opportunities to succeed).

You're saying that Ca.l admits academically marginal football players because it wants to have a good football team so it can make money. In other words, Ca.l admits academically marginal players so they can be entertainers. At the same time, the university says it is committed to graduating its players. I guess I question whether Ca.l really can have it both ways. If Ca.l really wants to improve its graduation rates, it may need to adjust its admissions standards.

[terry]

Ca.l needs to have a football team that excites fans to pay for and support it and all its intendant costs.  Absent great athletes like McKinley, Ca.l won't be able to generate the revenue it needs, and California tax payers will pay the price.  So he takes the place of a "more deserving" kid (who was likely given more opportunities to succeed).

You're saying that Ca.l admits academically marginal football players because it wants to have a good football team so it can make money. In other words, Ca.l admits academically marginal players so they can be entertainers. At the same time, the university says it is committed to graduating its players. I guess I question whether Ca.l really can have it both ways. If Ca.l really wants to improve its graduation rates, it may need to adjust its admissions standards.