[BostonCard]

Normally I'd laugh at people who think 5G cells are causing coronavirus, but 50 such towers have actually been burnt down in the UK.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/over-50-cell-...y-theories

I've seen stories about telecom workers being verbally assaulted while doing their job.  Hopefully none of these things turn violent.

BC

[BostonCard]

Normally I'd laugh at people who think 5G cells are causing coronavirus, but 50 such towers have actually been burnt down in the UK.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/over-50-cell-...y-theories

I've seen stories about telecom workers being verbally assaulted while doing their job.  Hopefully none of these things turn violent.

BC

[JustAnotherFan]

Normally I'd laugh at people who think 5G cells are causing coronavirus, but 50 such towers have actually been burnt down in the UK.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/over-50-cell-...y-theories

I've seen stories about telecom workers being verbally assaulted while doing their job.  Hopefully none of these things turn violent.

BC

Someone is going to kill one of those workers and claim self defense. :-(

[JustAnotherFan]

Normally I'd laugh at people who think 5G cells are causing coronavirus, but 50 such towers have actually been burnt down in the UK.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/over-50-cell-...y-theories

I've seen stories about telecom workers being verbally assaulted while doing their job.  Hopefully none of these things turn violent.

BC

Someone is going to kill one of those workers and claim self defense. :-(

[Genuine Realist]

Normally I'd laugh at people who think 5G cells are causing coronavirus, but 50 such towers have actually been burnt down in the UK.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/over-50-cell-...y-theories

I've seen stories about telecom workers being verbally assaulted while doing their job.  Hopefully none of these things turn violent.

BC

SOOOOOO. . . . you admit you're part of the plot.

[Genuine Realist]

Normally I'd laugh at people who think 5G cells are causing coronavirus, but 50 such towers have actually been burnt down in the UK.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/over-50-cell-...y-theories

I've seen stories about telecom workers being verbally assaulted while doing their job.  Hopefully none of these things turn violent.

BC

SOOOOOO. . . . you admit you're part of the plot.

[OutsiderFan]

Here's two conspiracy theories born right in the White House briefing room, that were deemed so batshit crazy, they landed in a comedy :

[tweet]https://twitter.com/sarahcpr/status/1253474772702429189[/tweet]

[OutsiderFan]

Here's two conspiracy theories born right in the White House briefing room, that were deemed so batshit crazy, they landed in a comedy :

[tweet]https://twitter.com/sarahcpr/status/1253474772702429189[/tweet]

[BostonCard]

Apropos this thread, Harvard is hosting a webinar with Ashish Jha (dean of the School of Public Health at Harvard) titled "Big, if True" about misinformation and public health generally, but featuring a large dose of COVID-19.

I have a conflict and can't tune in, but here's the link:
https://shorensteincenter.org/event/big-...ic-health/

BC

As an aside, I heard someone tell me that Trump was advocating drinking bleach at one of his press conferences, and my first thought was that it was either an Onion article or one of those things that people are repeating because it fits their pre-existing narrative about the President.  I thought even Trump wouldn't be so batshit crazy as to suggest injecting bleach.  So I looked it up.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-...s-n1191216

"I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? As you see, it gets in the lungs, it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to check that."

Words fail me.

[BostonCard]

Apropos this thread, Harvard is hosting a webinar with Ashish Jha (dean of the School of Public Health at Harvard) titled "Big, if True" about misinformation and public health generally, but featuring a large dose of COVID-19.

I have a conflict and can't tune in, but here's the link:
https://shorensteincenter.org/event/big-...ic-health/

BC

As an aside, I heard someone tell me that Trump was advocating drinking bleach at one of his press conferences, and my first thought was that it was either an Onion article or one of those things that people are repeating because it fits their pre-existing narrative about the President.  I thought even Trump wouldn't be so batshit crazy as to suggest injecting bleach.  So I looked it up.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-...s-n1191216

"I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? As you see, it gets in the lungs, it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to check that."

Words fail me.

[Goose]

"I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? As you see, it gets in the lungs, it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to check that."

Words fail me.

If anyone, anywhere believed that this President was able to meaningful contribute anything to the COVID-19 discussion these comments should disabuse them of that notion. Words do fail all of us in responding to that idea.

[Goose]

"I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? As you see, it gets in the lungs, it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to check that."

Words fail me.

If anyone, anywhere believed that this President was able to meaningful contribute anything to the COVID-19 discussion these comments should disabuse them of that notion. Words do fail all of us in responding to that idea.

[JustAnotherFan]

"I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? As you see, it gets in the lungs, it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to check that."

Words fail me.

If anyone, anywhere believed that this President was able to meaningful contribute anything to the COVID-19 discussion these comments should disabuse them of that notion. Words do fail all of us in responding to that idea.

So this is the link that Trump supporters are posting all over Facebook and Twitter to make his absurd comments yesterday seem reasonable: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6122858/

And it's spreading like wildfire.

[JustAnotherFan]

"I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? As you see, it gets in the lungs, it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to check that."

Words fail me.

If anyone, anywhere believed that this President was able to meaningful contribute anything to the COVID-19 discussion these comments should disabuse them of that notion. Words do fail all of us in responding to that idea.

So this is the link that Trump supporters are posting all over Facebook and Twitter to make his absurd comments yesterday seem reasonable: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6122858/

And it's spreading like wildfire.

[stupac2]

"I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? As you see, it gets in the lungs, it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to check that."

Words fail me.

If anyone, anywhere believed that this President was able to meaningful contribute anything to the COVID-19 discussion these comments should disabuse them of that notion. Words do fail all of us in responding to that idea.

So this is the link that Trump supporters are posting all over Facebook and Twitter to make his absurd comments yesterday seem reasonable: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6122858/

And it's spreading like wildfire.

It seems unlikely that this would be relevant at all for a respiratory illness, but it's way above my pay grade. Does one of our resident doctors have any thoughts?

[stupac2]

"I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? As you see, it gets in the lungs, it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to check that."

Words fail me.

If anyone, anywhere believed that this President was able to meaningful contribute anything to the COVID-19 discussion these comments should disabuse them of that notion. Words do fail all of us in responding to that idea.

So this is the link that Trump supporters are posting all over Facebook and Twitter to make his absurd comments yesterday seem reasonable: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6122858/

And it's spreading like wildfire.

It seems unlikely that this would be relevant at all for a respiratory illness, but it's way above my pay grade. Does one of our resident doctors have any thoughts?

[BostonCard]

Now he's claiming he was being sarcastic.  It's Schroedinger's humor; you throw sum stuff out there and if it causes a furore just claim "I was just joking". 

The administration's performance throughout this crisis speaks for itself, and much louder than a stupid comment about drinking bleach.

I just hope nobody actually tries it.

BC

[BostonCard]

Now he's claiming he was being sarcastic.  It's Schroedinger's humor; you throw sum stuff out there and if it causes a furore just claim "I was just joking". 

The administration's performance throughout this crisis speaks for itself, and much louder than a stupid comment about drinking bleach.

I just hope nobody actually tries it.

BC

[teejers1]

Normally I'd laugh at people who think 5G cells are causing coronavirus, but 50 such towers have actually been burnt down in the UK.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/over-50-cell-...y-theories

I've seen stories about telecom workers being verbally assaulted while doing their job.  Hopefully none of these things turn violent.

BC

What this thread - but particularly GR's "Timelines" thread - makes abundantly clear is one thing:  do not even try to tread on this board's absolute right to $hit on the Trump Administration for its feckless handling of the Covid- virus, whether by "relativizing" it or what have you.  The troops were out in force in Timelines, that's for sure!

An amazing study in board psychology . . . if anyone really cares.

And speaking of that, who really cares about how other countries handled the pandemic, good or bad or "about the same," or whatever?  And that's putting aside the historic, geographic, and cultural differences which may help or hinder a unified response in one country versus here.  It's all irrelevant noise, imo.  But whatever.

The most interesting thing in these parts is the potential breach in the "we must remain locked-in until a vaccine/treatment/or fool-proof testing/tracing capabilities are in hand."  Heaven forbid.  You mean we might actually have to open things up a bit and deal with this virus, including the increase in cases and deaths?  Gee, whodathunkit.

Last point:  Darwinism (and btw, this is good old fashioned Darwinism, and not even Social Darwinism) is harsh and generally sucks . . . but sometimes is unavoidable.  We may be in one of those situations now.  But on the bright side, maybe some Darwinism will kick in for those pouring disinfectants into their lungs.  Pardon me for not shedding too many tears for them.

[teejers1]

Normally I'd laugh at people who think 5G cells are causing coronavirus, but 50 such towers have actually been burnt down in the UK.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/over-50-cell-...y-theories

I've seen stories about telecom workers being verbally assaulted while doing their job.  Hopefully none of these things turn violent.

BC

What this thread - but particularly GR's "Timelines" thread - makes abundantly clear is one thing:  do not even try to tread on this board's absolute right to $hit on the Trump Administration for its feckless handling of the Covid- virus, whether by "relativizing" it or what have you.  The troops were out in force in Timelines, that's for sure!

An amazing study in board psychology . . . if anyone really cares.

And speaking of that, who really cares about how other countries handled the pandemic, good or bad or "about the same," or whatever?  And that's putting aside the historic, geographic, and cultural differences which may help or hinder a unified response in one country versus here.  It's all irrelevant noise, imo.  But whatever.

The most interesting thing in these parts is the potential breach in the "we must remain locked-in until a vaccine/treatment/or fool-proof testing/tracing capabilities are in hand."  Heaven forbid.  You mean we might actually have to open things up a bit and deal with this virus, including the increase in cases and deaths?  Gee, whodathunkit.

Last point:  Darwinism (and btw, this is good old fashioned Darwinism, and not even Social Darwinism) is harsh and generally sucks . . . but sometimes is unavoidable.  We may be in one of those situations now.  But on the bright side, maybe some Darwinism will kick in for those pouring disinfectants into their lungs.  Pardon me for not shedding too many tears for them.

[82 Card]

I'm confused. I must be missing a lot of stuff in my old age. How exactly is dumping on 5G cell tower attacks dumping on the Trump administration? Is burning down cell towers some new proposal of the administration?

[82 Card]

I'm confused. I must be missing a lot of stuff in my old age. How exactly is dumping on 5G cell tower attacks dumping on the Trump administration? Is burning down cell towers some new proposal of the administration?

[2006alum]

What this thread - but particularly GR's "Timelines" thread - makes abundantly clear is one thing:  do not even try to tread on this board's absolute right to $hit on the Trump Administration for its feckless handling of the Covid- virus, whether by "relativizing" it or what have you.  The troops were out in force in Timelines, that's for sure!

An amazing study in board psychology . . . if anyone really cares.

And speaking of that, who really cares about how other countries handled the pandemic, good or bad or "about the same," or whatever?  And that's putting aside the historic, geographic, and cultural differences which may help or hinder a unified response in one country versus here.  It's all irrelevant noise, imo.  But whatever.

1. This special COVID-19 section was created precisely because of a feeling many of us had that the initial response wasn't sufficient, both in the media and by our government. So you surely can't be surprised there are more skeptics than adherents of the Administration's approach.

2. What was bizarre to me about GR's approach is that he got to pick and choose which countries to compare us to. In social science, we call that selecting on the dependent variable. When many of us noted a number of success stories, GR handwaved them all away as unsuitable comparisons according to him. Maybe the case can be made for why the actual actions taken in Taiwan, South Korea, and New Zealand aren't achievable here, but GR didn't make it. He just said those countries are so different that no comparisons can be made. That, to me, is begging the question. I'm not entirely surprised that this approach didn't persuade anyone who didn't come in sharing GR's view.

3. If you're dissatisfied with the viewpoint of many folks in this forum, no one is forcing you to keep posting. I have to say I'm genuinely baffled by the complaint that in a marketplace of ideas, some ideas will be ones that few want to buy. Nothing unfair about that - if someone's not persuaded, they're not persuaded. I doubt I've said much of anything to persuade you; ultimately, I view that as my issue, not yours.

[2006alum]

What this thread - but particularly GR's "Timelines" thread - makes abundantly clear is one thing:  do not even try to tread on this board's absolute right to $hit on the Trump Administration for its feckless handling of the Covid- virus, whether by "relativizing" it or what have you.  The troops were out in force in Timelines, that's for sure!

An amazing study in board psychology . . . if anyone really cares.

And speaking of that, who really cares about how other countries handled the pandemic, good or bad or "about the same," or whatever?  And that's putting aside the historic, geographic, and cultural differences which may help or hinder a unified response in one country versus here.  It's all irrelevant noise, imo.  But whatever.

1. This special COVID-19 section was created precisely because of a feeling many of us had that the initial response wasn't sufficient, both in the media and by our government. So you surely can't be surprised there are more skeptics than adherents of the Administration's approach.

2. What was bizarre to me about GR's approach is that he got to pick and choose which countries to compare us to. In social science, we call that selecting on the dependent variable. When many of us noted a number of success stories, GR handwaved them all away as unsuitable comparisons according to him. Maybe the case can be made for why the actual actions taken in Taiwan, South Korea, and New Zealand aren't achievable here, but GR didn't make it. He just said those countries are so different that no comparisons can be made. That, to me, is begging the question. I'm not entirely surprised that this approach didn't persuade anyone who didn't come in sharing GR's view.

3. If you're dissatisfied with the viewpoint of many folks in this forum, no one is forcing you to keep posting. I have to say I'm genuinely baffled by the complaint that in a marketplace of ideas, some ideas will be ones that few want to buy. Nothing unfair about that - if someone's not persuaded, they're not persuaded. I doubt I've said much of anything to persuade you; ultimately, I view that as my issue, not yours.

[Genuine Realist]

What this thread - but particularly GR's "Timelines" thread - makes abundantly clear is one thing:  do not even try to tread on this board's absolute right to $hit on the Trump Administration for its feckless handling of the Covid- virus, whether by "relativizing" it or what have you.  The troops were out in force in Timelines, that's for sure!

An amazing study in board psychology . . . if anyone really cares.

And speaking of that, who really cares about how other countries handled the pandemic, good or bad or "about the same," or whatever?  And that's putting aside the historic, geographic, and cultural differences which may help or hinder a unified response in one country versus here.  It's all irrelevant noise, imo.  But whatever.

1. This special COVID-19 section was created precisely because of a feeling many of us had that the initial response wasn't sufficient, both in the media and by our government. So you surely can't be surprised there are more skeptics than adherents of the Administration's approach.

2. What was bizarre to me about GR's approach is that he got to pick and choose which countries to compare us to. In social science, we call that selecting on the dependent variable. When many of us noted a number of success stories, GR handwaved them all away as unsuitable comparisons according to him. Maybe the case can be made for why the actual actions taken in Taiwan, South Korea, and New Zealand aren't achievable here, but GR didn't make it. He just said those countries are so different that no comparisons can be made. That, to me, is begging the question. I'm not entirely surprised that this approach didn't persuade anyone who didn't come in sharing GR's view.

3. If you're dissatisfied with the viewpoint of many folks in this forum, no one is forcing you to keep posting. I have to say I'm genuinely baffled by the complaint that in a marketplace of ideas, some ideas will be ones that few want to buy. Nothing unfair about that - if someone's not persuaded, they're not persuaded. I doubt I've said much of anything to persuade you; ultimately, I view that as my issue, not yours.

Please. Twice I invited anyone who thought they could find a nation with any different pattern to go for it. (I  included Germany because it was being held up as a model.)  It takes a while to write those things. Enough is enough. I'm not going to survey every country in the world. If you think you can find an exception, go for it. 

I'm not revisiting the thread, but I'll bet no one has done so.  And I'll bet any exception you think you find actually is a flawed comparison.

The dumb ol', prosaic fact here is that the gating factor from January on was increasing knowledge. It began as a trickle in early January, began to gush at the end of January, became a flood in February. The pattern of every administration and health service in the West was roughly the same, and why shouldn't it be? The object of the exercise is the same everywhere, to contain the virus with the minimum of social constraint. There are no competing national interests, as in defense spending, etc. These days information is transmitted almost instantly, so there is no appreciable information gap.

Under these circumstances, you'd expect the process to be roughly equivalent everywhere, and that's exactly what happened. The US is neither better nor worse than other Western nations. That shouldn't be any surprise to anyone.

The fury comes from the posters who want to play Berne's game, 'Now I've Got You . . . '. It seems the game is not afoot. Darn. 

Everything is not about Trump - or shouldn't be, anyway. Can we get on with the business of coping with this?

[Genuine Realist]

What this thread - but particularly GR's "Timelines" thread - makes abundantly clear is one thing:  do not even try to tread on this board's absolute right to $hit on the Trump Administration for its feckless handling of the Covid- virus, whether by "relativizing" it or what have you.  The troops were out in force in Timelines, that's for sure!

An amazing study in board psychology . . . if anyone really cares.

And speaking of that, who really cares about how other countries handled the pandemic, good or bad or "about the same," or whatever?  And that's putting aside the historic, geographic, and cultural differences which may help or hinder a unified response in one country versus here.  It's all irrelevant noise, imo.  But whatever.

1. This special COVID-19 section was created precisely because of a feeling many of us had that the initial response wasn't sufficient, both in the media and by our government. So you surely can't be surprised there are more skeptics than adherents of the Administration's approach.

2. What was bizarre to me about GR's approach is that he got to pick and choose which countries to compare us to. In social science, we call that selecting on the dependent variable. When many of us noted a number of success stories, GR handwaved them all away as unsuitable comparisons according to him. Maybe the case can be made for why the actual actions taken in Taiwan, South Korea, and New Zealand aren't achievable here, but GR didn't make it. He just said those countries are so different that no comparisons can be made. That, to me, is begging the question. I'm not entirely surprised that this approach didn't persuade anyone who didn't come in sharing GR's view.

3. If you're dissatisfied with the viewpoint of many folks in this forum, no one is forcing you to keep posting. I have to say I'm genuinely baffled by the complaint that in a marketplace of ideas, some ideas will be ones that few want to buy. Nothing unfair about that - if someone's not persuaded, they're not persuaded. I doubt I've said much of anything to persuade you; ultimately, I view that as my issue, not yours.

Please. Twice I invited anyone who thought they could find a nation with any different pattern to go for it. (I  included Germany because it was being held up as a model.)  It takes a while to write those things. Enough is enough. I'm not going to survey every country in the world. If you think you can find an exception, go for it. 

I'm not revisiting the thread, but I'll bet no one has done so.  And I'll bet any exception you think you find actually is a flawed comparison.

The dumb ol', prosaic fact here is that the gating factor from January on was increasing knowledge. It began as a trickle in early January, began to gush at the end of January, became a flood in February. The pattern of every administration and health service in the West was roughly the same, and why shouldn't it be? The object of the exercise is the same everywhere, to contain the virus with the minimum of social constraint. There are no competing national interests, as in defense spending, etc. These days information is transmitted almost instantly, so there is no appreciable information gap.

Under these circumstances, you'd expect the process to be roughly equivalent everywhere, and that's exactly what happened. The US is neither better nor worse than other Western nations. That shouldn't be any surprise to anyone.

The fury comes from the posters who want to play Berne's game, 'Now I've Got You . . . '. It seems the game is not afoot. Darn. 

Everything is not about Trump - or shouldn't be, anyway. Can we get on with the business of coping with this?

[stupac2]

GR, every country you dismiss as either being too small or too close to China to be a fair comparison. So the only fair comparisons are the larger nations of Europe? That's... not a large sample size. If you're going to insist on only looking at wealthy non-Asian democracies with populations >60M

Someone mentioned Canada and you didn't respond at all. Seems pretty relevant as a fairly large, pluralistic, wealthy, north American country, that has 40% of the deaths per capita as us.

But, ultimately, the whole thing is pointless. You've clearly decided ahead of time what the parameters of the game are, and ignore anything going against what you want to conclude. Even by your own timeline the other countries reacted weeks ahead of Trump. You say that Germany quickly switched gears after their first covid death. The first US covid death known at the time was in late February, but our declaration of emergency wasn't until two weeks later. And, as far as I'm aware, the US still isn't coordinating supply at a federal level (just today I saw that London Breed claimed that FEMA confiscated SF-ordered masks).

It's even more ironic that, during the time you're working so feverishly to convince us that the US response was adequate, the president goes out and does something that literally makes people drink bleach.



And teejers, the fact that you can't tell the difference between "open up BeCaUsE tHe EcOnOmY" and "well I guess our public officials are such failures that the best we're going to be able to do is a controlled burn until we get to herd immunity" speaks volumes.

[stupac2]

GR, every country you dismiss as either being too small or too close to China to be a fair comparison. So the only fair comparisons are the larger nations of Europe? That's... not a large sample size. If you're going to insist on only looking at wealthy non-Asian democracies with populations >60M

Someone mentioned Canada and you didn't respond at all. Seems pretty relevant as a fairly large, pluralistic, wealthy, north American country, that has 40% of the deaths per capita as us.

But, ultimately, the whole thing is pointless. You've clearly decided ahead of time what the parameters of the game are, and ignore anything going against what you want to conclude. Even by your own timeline the other countries reacted weeks ahead of Trump. You say that Germany quickly switched gears after their first covid death. The first US covid death known at the time was in late February, but our declaration of emergency wasn't until two weeks later. And, as far as I'm aware, the US still isn't coordinating supply at a federal level (just today I saw that London Breed claimed that FEMA confiscated SF-ordered masks).

It's even more ironic that, during the time you're working so feverishly to convince us that the US response was adequate, the president goes out and does something that literally makes people drink bleach.



And teejers, the fact that you can't tell the difference between "open up BeCaUsE tHe EcOnOmY" and "well I guess our public officials are such failures that the best we're going to be able to do is a controlled burn until we get to herd immunity" speaks volumes.

[Genuine Realist]

GR, every country you dismiss as either being too small or too close to China to be a fair comparison. So the only fair comparisons are the larger nations of Europe? That's... not a large sample size. If you're going to insist on only looking at wealthy non-Asian democracies with populations >60M

Someone mentioned Canada and you didn't respond at all. Seems pretty relevant as a fairly large, pluralistic, wealthy, north American country, that has 40% of the deaths per capita as us.

But, ultimately, the whole thing is pointless. You've clearly decided ahead of time what the parameters of the game are, and ignore anything going against what you want to conclude. Even by your own timeline the other countries reacted weeks ahead of Trump. You say that Germany quickly switched gears after their first covid death. The first US covid death known at the time was in late February, but our declaration of emergency wasn't until two weeks later. And, as far as I'm aware, the US still isn't coordinating supply at a federal level (just today I saw that London Breed claimed that FEMA confiscated SF-ordered masks).

It's even more ironic that, during the time you're working so feverishly to convince us that the US response was adequate, the president goes out and does something that literally makes people drink bleach.



And teejers, the fact that you can't tell the difference between "open up BeCaUsE tHe EcOnOmY" and "well I guess our public officials are such failures that the best we're going to be able to do is a controlled burn until we get to herd immunity" tells us all we need to know about your analytical skills.

I'm not responding because I said last post, and I meant it.

'Declarations of emergency' are legalistic. They basically are predicates for various actions that the government can take. It's the time when action that is taken that matters. Germany went into overall lockdown mode during the same period the US did. In any case, during the January-March time period, it no more got ahead of the curve than any other nation. I notice you did not comment on the various pronouncements of Health Minister Spahn, which were relatively equivalent to Trump's, and made well into February.

Here's the Canadian timeline. It's not materially different than the US - growing awareness and half-measures in January, an airlift on January 29th, various ad hoc measures in February (nothing comprehensive), followed by more drastic government and business closures starting - as always - March 10th. Canada's experience and reactions are not materially different than the US.

[Genuine Realist]

GR, every country you dismiss as either being too small or too close to China to be a fair comparison. So the only fair comparisons are the larger nations of Europe? That's... not a large sample size. If you're going to insist on only looking at wealthy non-Asian democracies with populations >60M

Someone mentioned Canada and you didn't respond at all. Seems pretty relevant as a fairly large, pluralistic, wealthy, north American country, that has 40% of the deaths per capita as us.

But, ultimately, the whole thing is pointless. You've clearly decided ahead of time what the parameters of the game are, and ignore anything going against what you want to conclude. Even by your own timeline the other countries reacted weeks ahead of Trump. You say that Germany quickly switched gears after their first covid death. The first US covid death known at the time was in late February, but our declaration of emergency wasn't until two weeks later. And, as far as I'm aware, the US still isn't coordinating supply at a federal level (just today I saw that London Breed claimed that FEMA confiscated SF-ordered masks).

It's even more ironic that, during the time you're working so feverishly to convince us that the US response was adequate, the president goes out and does something that literally makes people drink bleach.



And teejers, the fact that you can't tell the difference between "open up BeCaUsE tHe EcOnOmY" and "well I guess our public officials are such failures that the best we're going to be able to do is a controlled burn until we get to herd immunity" tells us all we need to know about your analytical skills.

I'm not responding because I said last post, and I meant it.

'Declarations of emergency' are legalistic. They basically are predicates for various actions that the government can take. It's the time when action that is taken that matters. Germany went into overall lockdown mode during the same period the US did. In any case, during the January-March time period, it no more got ahead of the curve than any other nation. I notice you did not comment on the various pronouncements of Health Minister Spahn, which were relatively equivalent to Trump's, and made well into February.

Here's the Canadian timeline. It's not materially different than the US - growing awareness and half-measures in January, an airlift on January 29th, various ad hoc measures in February (nothing comprehensive), followed by more drastic government and business closures starting - as always - March 10th. Canada's experience and reactions are not materially different than the US.

[Goose]

I am willing to enter this miasma, because I have been there before. As I have repeatedly pointed out, Korea, HK, Taiwan Thailand and Singapore had in place a very competent track and trace facility left over from the first SARS epidemic, which hit them hard and us not at all. Their initial responses did not come from a head of state. It came from people out there doing their everyday job. That fact bought those countries lots more time to respond in a measured way. There also existed expertise that was part of the government with whom the executive branch was familiar and which is respected by the people. That makes it lots easier on the executive branch, because they could get experienced advice they could trust from people who had done this before and who they knew well.

The US and the west didn't have any of that. The West didn't know what was going on and were slow to act in almost all cases, all pretty much for the same reasons. So yes, I have told you what the differences were, and boy did they matter.

There are also some other important factors involved. Many of these countries are physically small and have few ports of entry (Thailand not as much, but still fewer ways in than say Italy). This factor is not governing, but it sure helps. These nations also have somewhat homogeneous societies, which the US does not. Social pressure is more effective in these countries than in the USA (Europe is a different case). It is also true that these nations have much more direct executive power than the USA does, which opens options the USA doesn't have.

Now New Zealand. The lockdown started in New Zealand on March 26. By that date the USA had 1,164 deaths. Italy had 8,215. New Zealand had 0. The 7 Bay Area counties locked down on March 16. New Zealand had the opportunity to see what was happening elsewhere and then decide what to do. They were not already in the s**t. I think it is fair to say they responded well, but also recognize that they responded well after the USA and Europe were deeply involved. It is also true that they can absolutely control entry to and exit from their country.

Does this all mean I think that the USA responded "well" to the crisis? Not at all. Did we respond about the way I would expect? Unfortunately yes. If you want to discuss causes for our response not being what is should have been, fine. That is a valid and important discussion. But the fact that these other countries responded "better" than we did is due to facts that have little to do with their executive branch being particularly competent, IMHO.

[Goose]

I am willing to enter this miasma, because I have been there before. As I have repeatedly pointed out, Korea, HK, Taiwan Thailand and Singapore had in place a very competent track and trace facility left over from the first SARS epidemic, which hit them hard and us not at all. Their initial responses did not come from a head of state. It came from people out there doing their everyday job. That fact bought those countries lots more time to respond in a measured way. There also existed expertise that was part of the government with whom the executive branch was familiar and which is respected by the people. That makes it lots easier on the executive branch, because they could get experienced advice they could trust from people who had done this before and who they knew well.

The US and the west didn't have any of that. The West didn't know what was going on and were slow to act in almost all cases, all pretty much for the same reasons. So yes, I have told you what the differences were, and boy did they matter.

There are also some other important factors involved. Many of these countries are physically small and have few ports of entry (Thailand not as much, but still fewer ways in than say Italy). This factor is not governing, but it sure helps. These nations also have somewhat homogeneous societies, which the US does not. Social pressure is more effective in these countries than in the USA (Europe is a different case). It is also true that these nations have much more direct executive power than the USA does, which opens options the USA doesn't have.

Now New Zealand. The lockdown started in New Zealand on March 26. By that date the USA had 1,164 deaths. Italy had 8,215. New Zealand had 0. The 7 Bay Area counties locked down on March 16. New Zealand had the opportunity to see what was happening elsewhere and then decide what to do. They were not already in the s**t. I think it is fair to say they responded well, but also recognize that they responded well after the USA and Europe were deeply involved. It is also true that they can absolutely control entry to and exit from their country.

Does this all mean I think that the USA responded "well" to the crisis? Not at all. Did we respond about the way I would expect? Unfortunately yes. If you want to discuss causes for our response not being what is should have been, fine. That is a valid and important discussion. But the fact that these other countries responded "better" than we did is due to facts that have little to do with their executive branch being particularly competent, IMHO.

[magnus]

I agree that the Asian countries that responded well had better systems in place.  But it takes a leader to make the call to action.  Taiwan's leader had to activate their Central Epidemic Command Center (which appointed a leader and centralized a lot of coordination).  One wonders if it was fortunate that Taiwan's leadership right now is the anti-China party.  If the China-friendly party were in command, perhaps they would have dragged their feet to try not to rub China the wrong way.  And as has been posted already...every day counts.

[magnus]

I agree that the Asian countries that responded well had better systems in place.  But it takes a leader to make the call to action.  Taiwan's leader had to activate their Central Epidemic Command Center (which appointed a leader and centralized a lot of coordination).  One wonders if it was fortunate that Taiwan's leadership right now is the anti-China party.  If the China-friendly party were in command, perhaps they would have dragged their feet to try not to rub China the wrong way.  And as has been posted already...every day counts.

[BostonCard]

Normally I'd laugh at people who think 5G cells are causing coronavirus, but 50 such towers have actually been burnt down in the UK.



https://www.pcmag.com/news/over-50-cell-...y-theories



I've seen stories about telecom workers being verbally assaulted while doing their job.  Hopefully none of these things turn violent.



BC

What this thread - but particularly GR's "Timelines" thread - makes abundantly clear is one thing:  do not even try to tread on this board's absolute right to $hit on the Trump Administration for its feckless handling of the Covid- virus, whether by "relativizing" it or what have you.  The troops were out in force in Timelines, that's for sure!

Did you click on the link?  This story happened in the UK, and there was no link to Trump that I know of.

Over 50 cell towers in the UK were vandalized over the weekend, with major telecom companies Vodafone, EE, and BT blaming the fraudulent conspiracy theory that 5G connectivity is the cause of coronavirus.

BC

[BostonCard]

Normally I'd laugh at people who think 5G cells are causing coronavirus, but 50 such towers have actually been burnt down in the UK.



https://www.pcmag.com/news/over-50-cell-...y-theories



I've seen stories about telecom workers being verbally assaulted while doing their job.  Hopefully none of these things turn violent.



BC

What this thread - but particularly GR's "Timelines" thread - makes abundantly clear is one thing:  do not even try to tread on this board's absolute right to $hit on the Trump Administration for its feckless handling of the Covid- virus, whether by "relativizing" it or what have you.  The troops were out in force in Timelines, that's for sure!

Did you click on the link?  This story happened in the UK, and there was no link to Trump that I know of.

Over 50 cell towers in the UK were vandalized over the weekend, with major telecom companies Vodafone, EE, and BT blaming the fraudulent conspiracy theory that 5G connectivity is the cause of coronavirus.

BC

[Goose]

I agree that the Asian countries that responded well had better systems in place.  But it takes a leader to make the call to action.  Taiwan's leader had to activate their Central Epidemic Command Center (which appointed a leader and centralized a lot of coordination).  One wonders if it was fortunate that Taiwan's leadership right now is the anti-China party.  If the China-friendly party were in command, perhaps they would have dragged their feet to try not to rub China the wrong way.  And as has been posted already...every day counts.

Magnus, I strongly suspect the leader was responding to a request from the people who would man the Command Center telling him that they needed him to activate it. I doubt it was truly an act of inspired leadership. I don't intend this as criticism. The leader has to have the courage to act. However, activating a command center is a lot easier to swallow than shutting down a country. The down side is lots lower. Having more options is a good thing.  I of course have no idea if irritating China was even an issue. I would tend to doubt it, but who knows?

[Goose]

I agree that the Asian countries that responded well had better systems in place.  But it takes a leader to make the call to action.  Taiwan's leader had to activate their Central Epidemic Command Center (which appointed a leader and centralized a lot of coordination).  One wonders if it was fortunate that Taiwan's leadership right now is the anti-China party.  If the China-friendly party were in command, perhaps they would have dragged their feet to try not to rub China the wrong way.  And as has been posted already...every day counts.

Magnus, I strongly suspect the leader was responding to a request from the people who would man the Command Center telling him that they needed him to activate it. I doubt it was truly an act of inspired leadership. I don't intend this as criticism. The leader has to have the courage to act. However, activating a command center is a lot easier to swallow than shutting down a country. The down side is lots lower. Having more options is a good thing.  I of course have no idea if irritating China was even an issue. I would tend to doubt it, but who knows?

[stupac2]

GR, every country you dismiss as either being too small or too close to China to be a fair comparison. So the only fair comparisons are the larger nations of Europe? That's... not a large sample size. If you're going to insist on only looking at wealthy non-Asian democracies with populations >60M

Someone mentioned Canada and you didn't respond at all. Seems pretty relevant as a fairly large, pluralistic, wealthy, north American country, that has 40% of the deaths per capita as us.

But, ultimately, the whole thing is pointless. You've clearly decided ahead of time what the parameters of the game are, and ignore anything going against what you want to conclude. Even by your own timeline the other countries reacted weeks ahead of Trump. You say that Germany quickly switched gears after their first covid death. The first US covid death known at the time was in late February, but our declaration of emergency wasn't until two weeks later. And, as far as I'm aware, the US still isn't coordinating supply at a federal level (just today I saw that London Breed claimed that FEMA confiscated SF-ordered masks).

It's even more ironic that, during the time you're working so feverishly to convince us that the US response was adequate, the president goes out and does something that literally makes people drink bleach.



And teejers, the fact that you can't tell the difference between "open up BeCaUsE tHe EcOnOmY" and "well I guess our public officials are such failures that the best we're going to be able to do is a controlled burn until we get to herd immunity" tells us all we need to know about your analytical skills.

I'm not responding because I said last post, and I meant it.

'Declarations of emergency' are legalistic. They basically are predicates for various actions that the government can take. It's the time when action that is taken that matters. Germany went into overall lockdown mode during the same period the US did. In any case, during the January-March time period, it no more got ahead of the curve than any other nation. I notice you did not comment on the various pronouncements of Health Minister Spahn, which were relatively equivalent to Trump's, and made well into February.

Here's the Canadian timeline. It's not materially different than the US - growing awareness and half-measures in January, an airlift on January 29th, various ad hoc measures in February (nothing comprehensive), followed by more drastic government and business closures starting - as always - March 10th. Canada's experience and reactions are not materially different than the US.

Canada was mentioned in, like, the second reply. It wasn't after your "take my ball and go home" comments. Which, by the way, you keep violating, so I don't know why you even said it.

But what is your definition of "materially different"? Because other posters have compiled long lists of dated Trump statements downplaying the virus. I just looked one up and in a fun coincidence, here's what Trump was saying on your auspicious date of March 10:

Q    Mr. President, how long should Americans be prepared for the economy to suffer?

THE PRESIDENT:  Well, this was unexpected.  This was something that came out of China, and it hit us and many other countries.  You look at the numbers; I see the numbers with just by watching you folks.  I see it — it’s over 100 different countries.  And it hit the world.

And we’re prepared, and we’re doing a great job with it.  And it will go away.  Just stay calm.  It will go away.
We want to protect our shipping industry, our cruise industry, cruise ships.  We want to protect our airline industry — very important.  But everybody has to be vigilant and has to be careful.

But be calm.  It’s really working out.  And a lot of good things are going to happen.  The consumer is ready, and the consumer is so powerful in our country with what we’ve done with tax cuts and regulation cuts and all of those things.  The consumer has never been in a better position than they are right now.

So a lot of good things are going to happen.  Thank you very much, everybody.

I understand not wanting to cause panic, but there's a difference between that and setting realistic expectations, which you seem to say that most countries were doing by March 10.



One thing that just occurred to me about this whole pointless exercise, but I'm not sure anyone has really said, is that comparing us to other countries like this is showing how Trump has diminished the US. We're supposed to be the leader of the free world. We're supposed to be the best. We're supposed to be the place that the rest of the world looks to for leadership, as an example of how to do things. You can argue that that backsliding has been happening for a long time, which I won't disagree with, but it's utterly inarguable that it has accelerated under Trump. No other leader was touting specific medicines and inspiring people to drink aquarium cleaner. No other leader spitballs about getting disinfectants into the lungs. No other leader was blaming the opposition for fear-mongering in March.

If you look at our leadership, and then look at leadership around the world, and see something of rough equivalence, I'd suggest a long look in the mirror.

[stupac2]

GR, every country you dismiss as either being too small or too close to China to be a fair comparison. So the only fair comparisons are the larger nations of Europe? That's... not a large sample size. If you're going to insist on only looking at wealthy non-Asian democracies with populations >60M

Someone mentioned Canada and you didn't respond at all. Seems pretty relevant as a fairly large, pluralistic, wealthy, north American country, that has 40% of the deaths per capita as us.

But, ultimately, the whole thing is pointless. You've clearly decided ahead of time what the parameters of the game are, and ignore anything going against what you want to conclude. Even by your own timeline the other countries reacted weeks ahead of Trump. You say that Germany quickly switched gears after their first covid death. The first US covid death known at the time was in late February, but our declaration of emergency wasn't until two weeks later. And, as far as I'm aware, the US still isn't coordinating supply at a federal level (just today I saw that London Breed claimed that FEMA confiscated SF-ordered masks).

It's even more ironic that, during the time you're working so feverishly to convince us that the US response was adequate, the president goes out and does something that literally makes people drink bleach.



And teejers, the fact that you can't tell the difference between "open up BeCaUsE tHe EcOnOmY" and "well I guess our public officials are such failures that the best we're going to be able to do is a controlled burn until we get to herd immunity" tells us all we need to know about your analytical skills.

I'm not responding because I said last post, and I meant it.

'Declarations of emergency' are legalistic. They basically are predicates for various actions that the government can take. It's the time when action that is taken that matters. Germany went into overall lockdown mode during the same period the US did. In any case, during the January-March time period, it no more got ahead of the curve than any other nation. I notice you did not comment on the various pronouncements of Health Minister Spahn, which were relatively equivalent to Trump's, and made well into February.

Here's the Canadian timeline. It's not materially different than the US - growing awareness and half-measures in January, an airlift on January 29th, various ad hoc measures in February (nothing comprehensive), followed by more drastic government and business closures starting - as always - March 10th. Canada's experience and reactions are not materially different than the US.

Canada was mentioned in, like, the second reply. It wasn't after your "take my ball and go home" comments. Which, by the way, you keep violating, so I don't know why you even said it.

But what is your definition of "materially different"? Because other posters have compiled long lists of dated Trump statements downplaying the virus. I just looked one up and in a fun coincidence, here's what Trump was saying on your auspicious date of March 10:

Q    Mr. President, how long should Americans be prepared for the economy to suffer?

THE PRESIDENT:  Well, this was unexpected.  This was something that came out of China, and it hit us and many other countries.  You look at the numbers; I see the numbers with just by watching you folks.  I see it — it’s over 100 different countries.  And it hit the world.

And we’re prepared, and we’re doing a great job with it.  And it will go away.  Just stay calm.  It will go away.
We want to protect our shipping industry, our cruise industry, cruise ships.  We want to protect our airline industry — very important.  But everybody has to be vigilant and has to be careful.

But be calm.  It’s really working out.  And a lot of good things are going to happen.  The consumer is ready, and the consumer is so powerful in our country with what we’ve done with tax cuts and regulation cuts and all of those things.  The consumer has never been in a better position than they are right now.

So a lot of good things are going to happen.  Thank you very much, everybody.

I understand not wanting to cause panic, but there's a difference between that and setting realistic expectations, which you seem to say that most countries were doing by March 10.



One thing that just occurred to me about this whole pointless exercise, but I'm not sure anyone has really said, is that comparing us to other countries like this is showing how Trump has diminished the US. We're supposed to be the leader of the free world. We're supposed to be the best. We're supposed to be the place that the rest of the world looks to for leadership, as an example of how to do things. You can argue that that backsliding has been happening for a long time, which I won't disagree with, but it's utterly inarguable that it has accelerated under Trump. No other leader was touting specific medicines and inspiring people to drink aquarium cleaner. No other leader spitballs about getting disinfectants into the lungs. No other leader was blaming the opposition for fear-mongering in March.

If you look at our leadership, and then look at leadership around the world, and see something of rough equivalence, I'd suggest a long look in the mirror.