[M T]

If you're in the vicinity of Stanford on Sunday, you would be well served to drop by the Stanford pools for some great water polo.  All the nation's top 9 teams and many of the world's best players will be playing the final day of the MPSF Invitational.    2 parallel sets of 4 games will be played.  Stanford's championship game will be at 2:30PM.  If you can't be there, you can watch it on a GoStanford.com feed (but watching in person is much better).  Tickets for the day are $20 I think, so go early and enjoy the weather.

As you may know, perennially the top 4 teams are Stanford, Cal, USC, and UCLA.  Usually the fall-off to #5 is pretty steep.  Stanford was #3 when it beat #1 USC 13-11 a week ago at Stanford, propelling Stanford to a #1 ranking.  In that game, Stanford got to a brobdingnagian 5 goal lead  12-7 in the third but USC pulled to within 1 goal late in the fourth.  All the momentum was with USC into the last minute, but  a Stanford goal with 31 seconds remaining sealed the win.

On Saturday afternoon,  Stanford was up big on #6 Pacific, 12-6, in the third quarter.  But a questionable call of a goal (that I didn't think crossed the goal line) led to a momentary reaction by the Stanford goalie, leading to a yellow card.  Another Stanford player had received a yellow card earlier, which meant that Stanford's goalie was disqualified.   Stanford had to sub in a freshman who had only 2 quarters of college-level experience.  While he's good, Pacific took to firing quickly at the inexperienced goalie.  That was effective. Pacific pulled within one in the last minute, but got no closer.  Stanford advanced to the semi-finals.

In the semi-finals in the evening, #1 Stanford vs #2 UCLA was even closer.  Stanford led early in the game, but UCLA came back to tie it up in the 3rd quarter.  It was 5-5 going into the last quarter. Stanford got a goal, but UCLA answered 26 seconds later.  With just 2:18 left in the match, UCLA went ahead for the first time.  About  1:20 left in the game, in a 6 on 5, it appeared that UCLA scored again to go two up (with but 2 likely possessions left for Stanford - shot clock is 30 seconds) but the goal didn't count because the player had moved into the 2-meter zone before he received the ball.

Then with just 54 seconds left, Stanford scored to tie the game. As I recall, UCLA benefited from a shot rebound back to themselves, but failed to score on either shot.  Stanford got the ball back with only 6 seconds on the clock, and called a timeout.  When play resumed, the ball came to a player well out from the goal, but in the center of the goal.  Instead of shooting, he found a player on the wing who buried a shot with one second on the clock.

On Sunday,  games start at 10AM.  (Games typically last about an hour each.)  Rankings are national rankings.
10:00 #9 Long Beach State  vs #6 Pacific
11:30 #5 UCSB vs #8 Pepperdine
1:00 #4 Cal vs #2 UCLA
2:30  #1 Stanford vs #3 USC
(You might ask why #7 is missing.  #7 Davis is playing in the other pool vs #11 UCSD, as are #12, #15, #18)

USC probably has adjusted their  tactics as a result  of their loss last week.  It was a physical game and will likely be so again.  Should Stanford beat USC again, it will help assure a place in the National Championship as one of the 3 teams that can participate from the MPSF, even if Stanford falls to UCLA later in the season and then again loses at the MPSF championship.

[M T]

If you're in the vicinity of Stanford on Sunday, you would be well served to drop by the Stanford pools for some great water polo.  All the nation's top 9 teams and many of the world's best players will be playing the final day of the MPSF Invitational.    2 parallel sets of 4 games will be played.  Stanford's championship game will be at 2:30PM.  If you can't be there, you can watch it on a GoStanford.com feed (but watching in person is much better).  Tickets for the day are $20 I think, so go early and enjoy the weather.

As you may know, perennially the top 4 teams are Stanford, Cal, USC, and UCLA.  Usually the fall-off to #5 is pretty steep.  Stanford was #3 when it beat #1 USC 13-11 a week ago at Stanford, propelling Stanford to a #1 ranking.  In that game, Stanford got to a brobdingnagian 5 goal lead  12-7 in the third but USC pulled to within 1 goal late in the fourth.  All the momentum was with USC into the last minute, but  a Stanford goal with 31 seconds remaining sealed the win.

On Saturday afternoon,  Stanford was up big on #6 Pacific, 12-6, in the third quarter.  But a questionable call of a goal (that I didn't think crossed the goal line) led to a momentary reaction by the Stanford goalie, leading to a yellow card.  Another Stanford player had received a yellow card earlier, which meant that Stanford's goalie was disqualified.   Stanford had to sub in a freshman who had only 2 quarters of college-level experience.  While he's good, Pacific took to firing quickly at the inexperienced goalie.  That was effective. Pacific pulled within one in the last minute, but got no closer.  Stanford advanced to the semi-finals.

In the semi-finals in the evening, #1 Stanford vs #2 UCLA was even closer.  Stanford led early in the game, but UCLA came back to tie it up in the 3rd quarter.  It was 5-5 going into the last quarter. Stanford got a goal, but UCLA answered 26 seconds later.  With just 2:18 left in the match, UCLA went ahead for the first time.  About  1:20 left in the game, in a 6 on 5, it appeared that UCLA scored again to go two up (with but 2 likely possessions left for Stanford - shot clock is 30 seconds) but the goal didn't count because the player had moved into the 2-meter zone before he received the ball.

Then with just 54 seconds left, Stanford scored to tie the game. As I recall, UCLA benefited from a shot rebound back to themselves, but failed to score on either shot.  Stanford got the ball back with only 6 seconds on the clock, and called a timeout.  When play resumed, the ball came to a player well out from the goal, but in the center of the goal.  Instead of shooting, he found a player on the wing who buried a shot with one second on the clock.

On Sunday,  games start at 10AM.  (Games typically last about an hour each.)  Rankings are national rankings.
10:00 #9 Long Beach State  vs #6 Pacific
11:30 #5 UCSB vs #8 Pepperdine
1:00 #4 Cal vs #2 UCLA
2:30  #1 Stanford vs #3 USC
(You might ask why #7 is missing.  #7 Davis is playing in the other pool vs #11 UCSD, as are #12, #15, #18)

USC probably has adjusted their  tactics as a result  of their loss last week.  It was a physical game and will likely be so again.  Should Stanford beat USC again, it will help assure a place in the National Championship as one of the 3 teams that can participate from the MPSF, even if Stanford falls to UCLA later in the season and then again loses at the MPSF championship.

[82lsju]

we loss 10-9 to usc

https://gostanford.com/news/2018/10/14/m...nford.aspx

[82lsju]

we loss 10-9 to usc

https://gostanford.com/news/2018/10/14/m...nford.aspx

[unclechuck]

Polo pundits - will the tight loss in tourney final, plus body of work so far (1 loss) be enough to insure an invite to the NCAA tourney? Seems likely that UCLA, SC, and LSJU should all be picked, but we weren't invited last year...Can't win another Natty without being invited!

[unclechuck]

Polo pundits - will the tight loss in tourney final, plus body of work so far (1 loss) be enough to insure an invite to the NCAA tourney? Seems likely that UCLA, SC, and LSJU should all be picked, but we weren't invited last year...Can't win another Natty without being invited!

[BobK]

I think the max from out league is three, we were 4th last year. We still have the league tourney in a month

[BobK]

I think the max from out league is three, we were 4th last year. We still have the league tourney in a month

[unclechuck]

I think the max from out league is three, we were 4th last year.   We still have the league tourney in a month

Ah, I confused the Invitational with league tourney. Knew we were kinda jobbed last year. Thanks BobK!

[unclechuck]

I think the max from out league is three, we were 4th last year.   We still have the league tourney in a month

Ah, I confused the Invitational with league tourney. Knew we were kinda jobbed last year. Thanks BobK!

[Redrum]

Don't follow water polo except on the Cardboard.  Just curious, haven't checked (too lazy) to look up the national water polo landscape , er...waterscape.  My impression is that over the years, at the championship contention level, this is a West Coast sport. Is the selection process a rigid regional structure or, does the playoff selection process even allow for an "unbalanced" representation to include the best-ranked teams?

[Redrum]

Don't follow water polo except on the Cardboard.  Just curious, haven't checked (too lazy) to look up the national water polo landscape , er...waterscape.  My impression is that over the years, at the championship contention level, this is a West Coast sport. Is the selection process a rigid regional structure or, does the playoff selection process even allow for an "unbalanced" representation to include the best-ranked teams?

[Spiny_Norman]

Man do I hate losing water polo (men's and women's ) to USC. Their coach Jovan Vavic has won 15 national championships so you cannot challenge his results. He is the most successful college water polo coach in the country. But his methods will irritate you no end. On the sidelines, he will demonstrate on calls against his team like they are mortal wounds. He will berate and bully the officials right up to the point where they might eject him. His players will bait the officials to call fouls through their own acting. And time and time again, his teams will draw a foul or get an important call at a critical time in the 4th quarter of a close game. Most vivid to me (and egregious) one of the Trojan women's players pulled her own suit so hard that she flashed the fans at the NC game last spring to draw a foul which resulted in the game winner for USC.

[Spiny_Norman]

Man do I hate losing water polo (men's and women's ) to USC. Their coach Jovan Vavic has won 15 national championships so you cannot challenge his results. He is the most successful college water polo coach in the country. But his methods will irritate you no end. On the sidelines, he will demonstrate on calls against his team like they are mortal wounds. He will berate and bully the officials right up to the point where they might eject him. His players will bait the officials to call fouls through their own acting. And time and time again, his teams will draw a foul or get an important call at a critical time in the 4th quarter of a close game. Most vivid to me (and egregious) one of the Trojan women's players pulled her own suit so hard that she flashed the fans at the NC game last spring to draw a foul which resulted in the game winner for USC.

[M T]

Don't follow water polo except on the Cardboard.  Just curious, haven't checked (too lazy) to look up the national water polo landscape , er...waterscape.  My impression is that over the years, at the championship contention level,  this is a West Coast sport. Is the selection process a rigid regional structure or, does the playoff selection process even allow for an "unbalanced" representation to include the best-ranked teams?

"The 2018 National Collegiate Men’s Water Polo Championship is a four-team, single-elimination tournament. Six conferences
have been granted qualification into the bracket or opening-round structure and two teams will be selected at large. The top two
teams qualify directly into the national championship; the remaining six teams will compete for the last two championship berths
via four opening-round games, with the winners earning the remaining berths in the championship bracket."

There are 6 conferences with automatic qualifying: MPSF  (incl. the big 4 PAC-12 schools), Golden Coast Conf., Western Water Polo Association, Southern California Interscholastic Athletic Conference, College Water Polo Association (counts as  2 conferences in some way I don' know).

Water polo IN THE NCAA is primarily a West Coast sport, but it is very popular in some areas of the world.  It was included in the 1900 Olympics.
The non-West Coast schools in the current top 20 ranked teams are 10. Harvard, 13. Brown, 14.  Princeton, 17. Bucknell 19. George Washington, 20. Wagner.  I believe MIT may have been ranked in the past. Other teams in the top 20 include Pomona-Pitzer and California Baptist. 

While the sport of swimming is popular across much of the US, water polo seems to have a large youth contingent only in California, and then  primarily in SoCal.  It seems to be a relatively inexpensive sport for a school so smaller colleges can compete.   A few good players can bring success, but that draws upon the youths that have experience & skill  (ie, mostly S.Cal).  Schools can bring foreign athletes in to provide a strong base.

USC:  3xAustralia, 2xGreece, 2xCroatia,  1xHawaii, 18xS.Cal, 1xN.Cal
UCLA: 1xMontenegro, 1xHungary, 1xGeorgia(country), 1xFlorida,  1xOregon, 4xN. Cal, 22 S. Cal
Cal: 2xBrazil, 2xTurkey, 1xCroatia,  3xGreece,  1xAustralia,  1xTexas, 4xN.Cal, 10xS.Cal
Stanford: 1xHawaii, 1xWashington, 2xN.Cal, 16xS.Cal
Picking another ranked school  at  random:
Brown: 1xGreece, 2xConnecticut, 2xFlorida,  2xTexas, 1xMassachusetts, 7xS.Cal, 3xN.Cal (Menlo Park, Atherton, Los Altos)

(The multiples from one country were often for brothers.)

I hadn't thought about WP as a draw for schools to pull in WP players that weren't able to go to the top four schools but still wanted to compete.

I didn't realize the MPSF  has 39 schools involved, in 5 men's & 5 women's sports.  All men's NCAA  WP championships since 1992 have been from the MPSF.   In that time, the only non-Big Four to win was Pepperdine in 1997.  Before MPSF's  start in 1992, the previous non-Big Four winners were   1982 UC Irvine, 1979  UCSB, 1970  UC  Irvine.   (1969   is the earliest date at the NCAA site).  For women, it is since 2001 where all have been won by USC, UCLA, or Stanford.

While Stanford Men's WP has 10 NC titles, it has been a long drought.  The last win was 2002.

[M T]

Don't follow water polo except on the Cardboard.  Just curious, haven't checked (too lazy) to look up the national water polo landscape , er...waterscape.  My impression is that over the years, at the championship contention level,  this is a West Coast sport. Is the selection process a rigid regional structure or, does the playoff selection process even allow for an "unbalanced" representation to include the best-ranked teams?

"The 2018 National Collegiate Men’s Water Polo Championship is a four-team, single-elimination tournament. Six conferences
have been granted qualification into the bracket or opening-round structure and two teams will be selected at large. The top two
teams qualify directly into the national championship; the remaining six teams will compete for the last two championship berths
via four opening-round games, with the winners earning the remaining berths in the championship bracket."

There are 6 conferences with automatic qualifying: MPSF  (incl. the big 4 PAC-12 schools), Golden Coast Conf., Western Water Polo Association, Southern California Interscholastic Athletic Conference, College Water Polo Association (counts as  2 conferences in some way I don' know).

Water polo IN THE NCAA is primarily a West Coast sport, but it is very popular in some areas of the world.  It was included in the 1900 Olympics.
The non-West Coast schools in the current top 20 ranked teams are 10. Harvard, 13. Brown, 14.  Princeton, 17. Bucknell 19. George Washington, 20. Wagner.  I believe MIT may have been ranked in the past. Other teams in the top 20 include Pomona-Pitzer and California Baptist. 

While the sport of swimming is popular across much of the US, water polo seems to have a large youth contingent only in California, and then  primarily in SoCal.  It seems to be a relatively inexpensive sport for a school so smaller colleges can compete.   A few good players can bring success, but that draws upon the youths that have experience & skill  (ie, mostly S.Cal).  Schools can bring foreign athletes in to provide a strong base.

USC:  3xAustralia, 2xGreece, 2xCroatia,  1xHawaii, 18xS.Cal, 1xN.Cal
UCLA: 1xMontenegro, 1xHungary, 1xGeorgia(country), 1xFlorida,  1xOregon, 4xN. Cal, 22 S. Cal
Cal: 2xBrazil, 2xTurkey, 1xCroatia,  3xGreece,  1xAustralia,  1xTexas, 4xN.Cal, 10xS.Cal
Stanford: 1xHawaii, 1xWashington, 2xN.Cal, 16xS.Cal
Picking another ranked school  at  random:
Brown: 1xGreece, 2xConnecticut, 2xFlorida,  2xTexas, 1xMassachusetts, 7xS.Cal, 3xN.Cal (Menlo Park, Atherton, Los Altos)

(The multiples from one country were often for brothers.)

I hadn't thought about WP as a draw for schools to pull in WP players that weren't able to go to the top four schools but still wanted to compete.

I didn't realize the MPSF  has 39 schools involved, in 5 men's & 5 women's sports.  All men's NCAA  WP championships since 1992 have been from the MPSF.   In that time, the only non-Big Four to win was Pepperdine in 1997.  Before MPSF's  start in 1992, the previous non-Big Four winners were   1982 UC Irvine, 1979  UCSB, 1970  UC  Irvine.   (1969   is the earliest date at the NCAA site).  For women, it is since 2001 where all have been won by USC, UCLA, or Stanford.

While Stanford Men's WP has 10 NC titles, it has been a long drought.  The last win was 2002.

[CTcard]

"The 2018 National Collegiate Men’s Water Polo Championship is a four-team, single-elimination tournament. Six conferences
have been granted qualification into the bracket or opening-round structure and two teams will be selected at large. The top two
teams qualify directly into the national championship; the remaining six teams will compete for the last two championship berths
via four opening-round games, with the winners earning the remaining berths in the championship bracket."

That is not exactly the most clear description of a tournament that I have ever read. [Which I understand isn't your words MT]

First off, it says it is a 4 team tournament, and then describes an 8 team tournament.
I am guessing that means they claim the first round isn't officially part of the tournament.

Next, "The top two teams qualify directly into the national championship" seems to be that the top two teams qualify for the semifinals. Presumably that means the final four is the official "national championship" - but it's a little confusing.

Finally, it is not quite obvious how six teams compete for two berths. I would guess that the third and fourth ranked teams get a bye while #5 plays #8 and #6 plays #7. Then the two winners play either the #3 or #4 seeds to advance to the final four.

I guess I can figure it out (assuming the above narrative is correct), but it seems there is excessive complication here. Presumably this is because they are trying to shoe-horn an 8 team playoff into a situation where they are only allowed a 4 team playoff for some reason?

[CTcard]

"The 2018 National Collegiate Men’s Water Polo Championship is a four-team, single-elimination tournament. Six conferences
have been granted qualification into the bracket or opening-round structure and two teams will be selected at large. The top two
teams qualify directly into the national championship; the remaining six teams will compete for the last two championship berths
via four opening-round games, with the winners earning the remaining berths in the championship bracket."

That is not exactly the most clear description of a tournament that I have ever read. [Which I understand isn't your words MT]

First off, it says it is a 4 team tournament, and then describes an 8 team tournament.
I am guessing that means they claim the first round isn't officially part of the tournament.

Next, "The top two teams qualify directly into the national championship" seems to be that the top two teams qualify for the semifinals. Presumably that means the final four is the official "national championship" - but it's a little confusing.

Finally, it is not quite obvious how six teams compete for two berths. I would guess that the third and fourth ranked teams get a bye while #5 plays #8 and #6 plays #7. Then the two winners play either the #3 or #4 seeds to advance to the final four.

I guess I can figure it out (assuming the above narrative is correct), but it seems there is excessive complication here. Presumably this is because they are trying to shoe-horn an 8 team playoff into a situation where they are only allowed a 4 team playoff for some reason?

[M T]

The way I would understand it is the NC is a tournament played on a weekend, with 4 teams competing.  Very similar to the Final Four.  The bracket is that part leading up to that weekend.  You can see last year's for an example.   I would not describe it as the NCAA did, which I quoted  previously.   (In the NCAA Water Polo history page is "Note: From 1969 through 1994, the championship was composed of eight teams. Since 1995, the championship has been composed of four teams."  I presume the 1995 format results in less expense for the East Coast teams as they play their bracket game in the East.)

But, the good news is that people can see it in action at Stanford December 1st and 2nd.

Btw, the NCAA rules now provides penalties for simulating being fouled.  For a defensive player, it results in an ejection; for an offensive player, it results in the loss of possession.  (I didn't see whether this is a major for a defensive player but not for an offensive player, where 3 majors disqualifies a player.  As I type this, NCAA publications is offline so I can't check on it)  Seems like an appropriate rule, but it may make a sport that is (IMHO) very difficult to officiate into a nearly impossible one.

In one of the games this weekend, Ben Hallock was injured in a way (yeah, that way) that left him unable to swim back on defense.  However, Stanford got the ball and threw it to the wide open Hallock.  It certainly appeared to me that he was only barely able to get the ball and shoot it (for a score).   After the score, he swam very slowly to the sideline to get out, but appeared better than I expected once out of the water..  Without the ability to watch replays, I couldn't see just what happened.   When possession changes, one player will often kick off their opponent to start faster.  Hallock looked like he'd been hurt by an upward, not downward, kick or knee or hand.  (The best player I ever played used a technique of putting is foot in your stomach, rotating it so his toes where inside your suit, kicking off (pushing you backward), and then jerking his toe so it would pop the string in your suit. All in an instant. I always wore two suits, but he'd do it multiple times.)

[M T]

The way I would understand it is the NC is a tournament played on a weekend, with 4 teams competing.  Very similar to the Final Four.  The bracket is that part leading up to that weekend.  You can see last year's for an example.   I would not describe it as the NCAA did, which I quoted  previously.   (In the NCAA Water Polo history page is "Note: From 1969 through 1994, the championship was composed of eight teams. Since 1995, the championship has been composed of four teams."  I presume the 1995 format results in less expense for the East Coast teams as they play their bracket game in the East.)

But, the good news is that people can see it in action at Stanford December 1st and 2nd.

Btw, the NCAA rules now provides penalties for simulating being fouled.  For a defensive player, it results in an ejection; for an offensive player, it results in the loss of possession.  (I didn't see whether this is a major for a defensive player but not for an offensive player, where 3 majors disqualifies a player.  As I type this, NCAA publications is offline so I can't check on it)  Seems like an appropriate rule, but it may make a sport that is (IMHO) very difficult to officiate into a nearly impossible one.

In one of the games this weekend, Ben Hallock was injured in a way (yeah, that way) that left him unable to swim back on defense.  However, Stanford got the ball and threw it to the wide open Hallock.  It certainly appeared to me that he was only barely able to get the ball and shoot it (for a score).   After the score, he swam very slowly to the sideline to get out, but appeared better than I expected once out of the water..  Without the ability to watch replays, I couldn't see just what happened.   When possession changes, one player will often kick off their opponent to start faster.  Hallock looked like he'd been hurt by an upward, not downward, kick or knee or hand.  (The best player I ever played used a technique of putting is foot in your stomach, rotating it so his toes where inside your suit, kicking off (pushing you backward), and then jerking his toe so it would pop the string in your suit. All in an instant. I always wore two suits, but he'd do it multiple times.)