[CardinalSagehen]

A few years ago, many of us were ambivalent about our predictable fade calls in the red zone.  Not so anymore.  

We not only run the end zone fade with insane efficiency, but sometimes we run it in the middle of the field for a first down.  We also regularly throw to the back shoulder of our towering TEs over the middle.  You usually see back shoulder throws on the sidelines, but we throw that way to our TEs several times a game.

We have basketball and volleyball style athletes applying the techniques of those sports to football receptions.  Those poor defenders look kind of pathetic trying to do anything against our receivers meeting the ball at its peak.   

There are many basketball players that have all the height and athleticism anyone would need, but don't quite have the skills to make the starting 5.  Ten years from now, will we be seeing more 6'5 - 6'9 receivers and TEs with athletic hops?  I hope so, and I hope they all come to Stanford.  

Hypothetically, would our offense be more efficient if we ran nothing but fades all game long?  Food for thought...

[CardinalSagehen]

A few years ago, many of us were ambivalent about our predictable fade calls in the red zone.  Not so anymore.  

We not only run the end zone fade with insane efficiency, but sometimes we run it in the middle of the field for a first down.  We also regularly throw to the back shoulder of our towering TEs over the middle.  You usually see back shoulder throws on the sidelines, but we throw that way to our TEs several times a game.

We have basketball and volleyball style athletes applying the techniques of those sports to football receptions.  Those poor defenders look kind of pathetic trying to do anything against our receivers meeting the ball at its peak.   

There are many basketball players that have all the height and athleticism anyone would need, but don't quite have the skills to make the starting 5.  Ten years from now, will we be seeing more 6'5 - 6'9 receivers and TEs with athletic hops?  I hope so, and I hope they all come to Stanford.  

Hypothetically, would our offense be more efficient if we ran nothing but fades all game long?  Food for thought...

[BostonCard]

As Hulk will surely mention, these aren't traditional fades (in the sense of throwing an arching ball at the receiver's back shoulder).  We run a box out where our bigger receivers establish position in front of a DB and don't let the smaller DB's get to it. 

I noted in game that no one seems to complain about how predictable it is any more.

BC

[BostonCard]

As Hulk will surely mention, these aren't traditional fades (in the sense of throwing an arching ball at the receiver's back shoulder).  We run a box out where our bigger receivers establish position in front of a DB and don't let the smaller DB's get to it. 

I noted in game that no one seems to complain about how predictable it is any more.

BC

[CardinalSagehen]

I noted in game that no one seems to complain about how predictable it is any more.

BC

Missed that, as I was too riveted during the game!  But of course people don't complain anymore - it's something like 80% efficient now, and the rest of the time, it's a PI!  I also can't recall our taking a sack on that kind of play, so there seems to be very little downside.

[CardinalSagehen]

I noted in game that no one seems to complain about how predictable it is any more.

BC

Missed that, as I was too riveted during the game!  But of course people don't complain anymore - it's something like 80% efficient now, and the rest of the time, it's a PI!  I also can't recall our taking a sack on that kind of play, so there seems to be very little downside.

[cardcrimson]

As Hulk will surely mention, these aren't traditional fades (in the sense of throwing an arching ball at the receiver's back shoulder).  We run a box out where our bigger receivers establish position in front of a DB and don't let the smaller DB's get to it. 

I noted in game that no one seems to complain about how predictable it is any more.

BC

It's almost as easy as giving a guy a twelve yard cushion at the snap, and having the receiver run a ten yard hook.

Defenses will figure it out. Herbstreit noted during a play early on that the defended ripped the arm away, thus keeping the receiver from having two hands on the ball. That's the way to defend it if you're shorter and boxed out. Play the arms.

[cardcrimson]

As Hulk will surely mention, these aren't traditional fades (in the sense of throwing an arching ball at the receiver's back shoulder).  We run a box out where our bigger receivers establish position in front of a DB and don't let the smaller DB's get to it. 

I noted in game that no one seems to complain about how predictable it is any more.

BC

It's almost as easy as giving a guy a twelve yard cushion at the snap, and having the receiver run a ten yard hook.

Defenses will figure it out. Herbstreit noted during a play early on that the defended ripped the arm away, thus keeping the receiver from having two hands on the ball. That's the way to defend it if you're shorter and boxed out. Play the arms.

[lex24]

Actually I’ve been talking about the box out vs the face for a couple years. I called the first TD to JJ. Thing is, if he is single covered on the wide side near the goal line it is the right call. JJ is a tremendous rebounder. Boxes out well, seals, maintains position and catches the ball at the apex. Everything you teach in rebounding. And KJ throws that pass beautifully. It is indefensible if executed well. And they almost always do execute it well.



quote="BostonCard" pid='230477' dateline='1537678841']
As Hulk will surely mention, these aren't traditional fades (in the sense of throwing an arching ball at the receiver's back shoulder).  We run a box out where our bigger receivers establish position in front of a DB and don't let the smaller DB's get to it. 

I noted in game that no one seems to complain about how predictable it is any more.

BC
[/quote]

---

Actually the way to defend it is double team JJ down near the goal line. Because he’s not gonna let anybody get inside his arms. He’s too good at keeping them on his back. Take your chances with the others. Seriously, everybody knows Stanford gonna run that play. If they don’t they’re freaking idiots.

JJs second TD was a different route. He made a beautiful move at the line of scrimmage to free himself.

I don’t know why teams don’t automatically double him near the goal line. I suspect that may start to happen beginning next week. I certainly would do it.



quote="cardcrimson" pid='230484' dateline='1537679253']

As Hulk will surely mention, these aren't traditional fades (in the sense of throwing an arching ball at the receiver's back shoulder).  We run a box out where our bigger receivers establish position in front of a DB and don't let the smaller DB's get to it. 

I noted in game that no one seems to complain about how predictable it is any more.

BC

It's almost as easy as giving a guy a twelve yard cushion at the snap, and having the receiver run a ten yard hook.

Defenses will figure it out. Herbstreit noted during a play early on that the defended ripped the arm away, thus keeping the receiver from having two hands on the ball. That's the way to defend it if you're shorter and boxed out. Play the arms.
[/quote]

[lex24]

Actually I’ve been talking about the box out vs the face for a couple years. I called the first TD to JJ. Thing is, if he is single covered on the wide side near the goal line it is the right call. JJ is a tremendous rebounder. Boxes out well, seals, maintains position and catches the ball at the apex. Everything you teach in rebounding. And KJ throws that pass beautifully. It is indefensible if executed well. And they almost always do execute it well.



quote="BostonCard" pid='230477' dateline='1537678841']
As Hulk will surely mention, these aren't traditional fades (in the sense of throwing an arching ball at the receiver's back shoulder).  We run a box out where our bigger receivers establish position in front of a DB and don't let the smaller DB's get to it. 

I noted in game that no one seems to complain about how predictable it is any more.

BC
[/quote]

---

Actually the way to defend it is double team JJ down near the goal line. Because he’s not gonna let anybody get inside his arms. He’s too good at keeping them on his back. Take your chances with the others. Seriously, everybody knows Stanford gonna run that play. If they don’t they’re freaking idiots.

JJs second TD was a different route. He made a beautiful move at the line of scrimmage to free himself.

I don’t know why teams don’t automatically double him near the goal line. I suspect that may start to happen beginning next week. I certainly would do it.



quote="cardcrimson" pid='230484' dateline='1537679253']

As Hulk will surely mention, these aren't traditional fades (in the sense of throwing an arching ball at the receiver's back shoulder).  We run a box out where our bigger receivers establish position in front of a DB and don't let the smaller DB's get to it. 

I noted in game that no one seems to complain about how predictable it is any more.

BC

It's almost as easy as giving a guy a twelve yard cushion at the snap, and having the receiver run a ten yard hook.

Defenses will figure it out. Herbstreit noted during a play early on that the defended ripped the arm away, thus keeping the receiver from having two hands on the ball. That's the way to defend it if you're shorter and boxed out. Play the arms.
[/quote]

[BostonCard]

Actually the way to defend it is double team JJ down near the goal line.  Because he’s not gonna let anybody get inside his arms. He’s too good at keeping them on his back. Take your chances with the others.  Seriously, everybody knows Stanford gonna run that play. If they don’t they’re freaking idiots.  

And what are defenses supposed to do when Costello throws it to Parkinson in one-on-one coverage on the other side of the field instead?

I mean you are right; you bracket JJ and take your chances with the other receivers, but in the end, we will have a one on one match-up between one tall receiver and an undersized DB somewhere in the field, and as you point out, Costello throws those perfectly. 

BC

[BostonCard]

Actually the way to defend it is double team JJ down near the goal line.  Because he’s not gonna let anybody get inside his arms. He’s too good at keeping them on his back. Take your chances with the others.  Seriously, everybody knows Stanford gonna run that play. If they don’t they’re freaking idiots.  

And what are defenses supposed to do when Costello throws it to Parkinson in one-on-one coverage on the other side of the field instead?

I mean you are right; you bracket JJ and take your chances with the other receivers, but in the end, we will have a one on one match-up between one tall receiver and an undersized DB somewhere in the field, and as you point out, Costello throws those perfectly. 

BC

[Hulk01]

JJ runs the AW Box Out.  From the first time a former basketball player sees him do it, he realizes that JJ moves  comes from the defender's box out for a rebound n basketball.  The technique:

1.  Set and plant your feet firmly and a little wider than shoulder length, to maximize your resistance to pusn/pressure from behind. 
2.  Stick out your ass into the opponent's hips, to maximize the distance between you and the opponent.
3.  Raise your elbows to make two wings, and stiffen them against pressure from the opponent and to prevent him from moving around you.
4.  Nudge the defender back with your butt

How do you counter it as a defender? 

1. Be a lot taller--and more important, longer; have a much bigger wing span than the defender.
2  Sneak a hand onto the boxing out guy's jersey and try to restrain his jump.   Hope the ref misses it.
3. Try to box out the receiver on one side, conceding him most of the space but gambling that the ball will come to the side you've boxed out.  (This is a move that isn't easy to describe.  At least for me at this early hour.

JJ simply is so long, so strong, and so well-trained in boxing-out from his hoops days, that you have to do your best, gamble to one quadrant, and hope Costello misses the throw and puts it into the quadrant you've managed to claim. 
'
I don't see another defense to it. It has worked in basketball since the inception of the game, and defenders consistently get more rebounds than offensive players--and that's for balls that aren't predictable.   A football throw is. 

And yes, it's not a fade.  I suspect there must be a pro somewhere who uses the move--most receivers played basketball--but I don't watch pro football.  And a guess is that pro teams are more apt to have taller corners who can match up better with the play.  It'd not a good play to tgry to run against Richard Sherman, as one example.

[Hulk01]

JJ runs the AW Box Out.  From the first time a former basketball player sees him do it, he realizes that JJ moves  comes from the defender's box out for a rebound n basketball.  The technique:

1.  Set and plant your feet firmly and a little wider than shoulder length, to maximize your resistance to pusn/pressure from behind. 
2.  Stick out your ass into the opponent's hips, to maximize the distance between you and the opponent.
3.  Raise your elbows to make two wings, and stiffen them against pressure from the opponent and to prevent him from moving around you.
4.  Nudge the defender back with your butt

How do you counter it as a defender? 

1. Be a lot taller--and more important, longer; have a much bigger wing span than the defender.
2  Sneak a hand onto the boxing out guy's jersey and try to restrain his jump.   Hope the ref misses it.
3. Try to box out the receiver on one side, conceding him most of the space but gambling that the ball will come to the side you've boxed out.  (This is a move that isn't easy to describe.  At least for me at this early hour.

JJ simply is so long, so strong, and so well-trained in boxing-out from his hoops days, that you have to do your best, gamble to one quadrant, and hope Costello misses the throw and puts it into the quadrant you've managed to claim. 
'
I don't see another defense to it. It has worked in basketball since the inception of the game, and defenders consistently get more rebounds than offensive players--and that's for balls that aren't predictable.   A football throw is. 

And yes, it's not a fade.  I suspect there must be a pro somewhere who uses the move--most receivers played basketball--but I don't watch pro football.  And a guess is that pro teams are more apt to have taller corners who can match up better with the play.  It'd not a good play to tgry to run against Richard Sherman, as one example.

[qwerty49]

Great points Hulk. This would indeed be a good interview topic for Richard Sherman, ie how would he defend that play.

JJ runs the AW Box Out.  From the first time a former basketball player sees him do it, he realizes that JJ moves  comes from the defender's box out for a rebound n basketball.  The technique:

1.  Set and plant your feet firmly and a little wider than shoulder length, to maximize your resistance to pusn/pressure from behind. 
2.  Stick out your ass into the opponent's hips, to maximize the distance between you and the opponent.
3.  Raise your elbows to make two wings, and stiffen them against pressure from the opponent and to prevent him from moving around you.
4.  Nudge the defender back with your butt

How do you counter it as a defender? 

1. Be a lot taller--and more important, longer; have a much bigger wing span than the defender.
2  Sneak a hand onto the boxing out guy's jersey and try to restrain his jump.   Hope the ref misses it.
3. Try to box out the receiver on one side, conceding him most of the space but gambling that the ball will come to the side you've boxed out.  (This is a move that isn't easy to describe.  At least for me at this early hour.

JJ simply is so long, so strong, and so well-trained in boxing-out from his hoops days, that you have to do your best, gamble to one quadrant, and hope Costello misses the throw and puts it into the quadrant you've managed to claim. 
'
I don't see another defense to it. It has worked in basketball since the inception of the game, and defenders consistently get more rebounds than offensive players--and that's for balls that aren't predictable.   A football throw is. 

And yes, it's not a fade.  I suspect there must be a pro somewhere who uses the move--most receivers played basketball--but I don't watch pro football.  And a guess is that pro teams are more apt to have taller corners who can match up better with the play.  It'd not a good play to tgry to run against Richard Sherman, as one example.

[qwerty49]

Great points Hulk. This would indeed be a good interview topic for Richard Sherman, ie how would he defend that play.

JJ runs the AW Box Out.  From the first time a former basketball player sees him do it, he realizes that JJ moves  comes from the defender's box out for a rebound n basketball.  The technique:

1.  Set and plant your feet firmly and a little wider than shoulder length, to maximize your resistance to pusn/pressure from behind. 
2.  Stick out your ass into the opponent's hips, to maximize the distance between you and the opponent.
3.  Raise your elbows to make two wings, and stiffen them against pressure from the opponent and to prevent him from moving around you.
4.  Nudge the defender back with your butt

How do you counter it as a defender? 

1. Be a lot taller--and more important, longer; have a much bigger wing span than the defender.
2  Sneak a hand onto the boxing out guy's jersey and try to restrain his jump.   Hope the ref misses it.
3. Try to box out the receiver on one side, conceding him most of the space but gambling that the ball will come to the side you've boxed out.  (This is a move that isn't easy to describe.  At least for me at this early hour.

JJ simply is so long, so strong, and so well-trained in boxing-out from his hoops days, that you have to do your best, gamble to one quadrant, and hope Costello misses the throw and puts it into the quadrant you've managed to claim. 
'
I don't see another defense to it. It has worked in basketball since the inception of the game, and defenders consistently get more rebounds than offensive players--and that's for balls that aren't predictable.   A football throw is. 

And yes, it's not a fade.  I suspect there must be a pro somewhere who uses the move--most receivers played basketball--but I don't watch pro football.  And a guess is that pro teams are more apt to have taller corners who can match up better with the play.  It'd not a good play to tgry to run against Richard Sherman, as one example.

[ChicagoCard]

Always happy to see Hulk's posts.

[ChicagoCard]

Always happy to see Hulk's posts.

[Goose]

 It'd not a good play to tgry to run against Richard Sherman, as one example.

Especially because Sherman would combine pulling down on the jersey with a vertical jump. It is like a magic trick where the jump motion distracts the ref from the jersey tug. Sherman is tall enough it doesn't take much to get equal height. JJ is still stronger, so it may work anyway.
Another possibility is to front JJ, and hope that Sherman is tall enough that KJ can't get the ball over him. If KJ misses low, it is probably an INT.

[Goose]

 It'd not a good play to tgry to run against Richard Sherman, as one example.

Especially because Sherman would combine pulling down on the jersey with a vertical jump. It is like a magic trick where the jump motion distracts the ref from the jersey tug. Sherman is tall enough it doesn't take much to get equal height. JJ is still stronger, so it may work anyway.
Another possibility is to front JJ, and hope that Sherman is tall enough that KJ can't get the ball over him. If KJ misses low, it is probably an INT.