[Redrum]

I could have used "revolutionaries" instead of the communist reference, but needling garvin is just second nature with me.  And calling him anything near a communist will do'er.

But it's true.  When we-- and I do mean "we"--started this thing we were spitting in the eye of the big boy in town...the Bootleg.  I make no secret of my posting, reading and financially supporting all three of the major Stanford sports sites, but the Cardboard was special, mostly because it was us not only against the heavily negative Bootleg but against specific Bootleg denizens who made it their business to do regular bombing and strafing runs on the Cardboard.  The Bolsheviks at the time kept on keeping on, as did we, using back channel communications and a demonstrably more reasonable product to slowly win readership.

And now I'm sitting here overcome by nostalgia and trying to absorb the reality: garvin...the Trotsky to Yvonne's Lenin...is gone. It's happened before and might, like in the past, reverse itself with time. But maybe not.  This feels different.  But garvin is as principle-driven and cantankerous as ever. Maybe more.  I don't know about Ferrari, because by the time I found out about his banning, and the circumstances, things had gone completely sideways.

So I'm sitting here in the CDT,  reading pros and cons being argued with increasing abandon and hardening of positions and wondering if we've managed to screw the pooch without any direct intention to do so. Certainly other of our Bolsheviks have disappeared with time and circumstances.  I value every member of this board and what the Cardboard represents.  Garvin is an articulate, emphatic force both in his job and his passions.  Hope I'll feel better in the morning because I feel pretty bad right now.

[Redrum]

I could have used "revolutionaries" instead of the communist reference, but needling garvin is just second nature with me.  And calling him anything near a communist will do'er.

But it's true.  When we-- and I do mean "we"--started this thing we were spitting in the eye of the big boy in town...the Bootleg.  I make no secret of my posting, reading and financially supporting all three of the major Stanford sports sites, but the Cardboard was special, mostly because it was us not only against the heavily negative Bootleg but against specific Bootleg denizens who made it their business to do regular bombing and strafing runs on the Cardboard.  The Bolsheviks at the time kept on keeping on, as did we, using back channel communications and a demonstrably more reasonable product to slowly win readership.

And now I'm sitting here overcome by nostalgia and trying to absorb the reality: garvin...the Trotsky to Yvonne's Lenin...is gone. It's happened before and might, like in the past, reverse itself with time. But maybe not.  This feels different.  But garvin is as principle-driven and cantankerous as ever. Maybe more.  I don't know about Ferrari, because by the time I found out about his banning, and the circumstances, things had gone completely sideways.

So I'm sitting here in the CDT,  reading pros and cons being argued with increasing abandon and hardening of positions and wondering if we've managed to screw the pooch without any direct intention to do so. Certainly other of our Bolsheviks have disappeared with time and circumstances.  I value every member of this board and what the Cardboard represents.  Garvin is an articulate, emphatic force both in his job and his passions.  Hope I'll feel better in the morning because I feel pretty bad right now.

[dabigv13]

+1.

The last time I saw Garvin was at the Rose Bowl Cardboard meetup. I was sitting next to Yvonne, and Garvin was across the table. It's hard to square how enjoyable that evening was with everything on the board here recently. Hopefully things can go back to the way it used to be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu0bOTxPLII

[dabigv13]

+1.

The last time I saw Garvin was at the Rose Bowl Cardboard meetup. I was sitting next to Yvonne, and Garvin was across the table. It's hard to square how enjoyable that evening was with everything on the board here recently. Hopefully things can go back to the way it used to be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu0bOTxPLII

[BostonCard]

This almost feels like a Greek tragedy, where the protagonists unwittingly ensure the very outcome they are trying to avoid.

BC

[BostonCard]

This almost feels like a Greek tragedy, where the protagonists unwittingly ensure the very outcome they are trying to avoid.

BC

[winflop]

Dear Lord talk about making a mountain out of a molehill...

I've never even met garvin so I won't venture into that quagmire, but I think the reasons for Ferrari's ban are pretty clear and I stand by the admins 100% on their decision.

I come here to discuss Stanford-related topics primarily sports.  Plenty of other places to vent on politics.  I like that we try to keep it (mostly) out of this board, and I think it's a good safeguard against this community being turned more negative like the alternatives have become.

[winflop]

Dear Lord talk about making a mountain out of a molehill...

I've never even met garvin so I won't venture into that quagmire, but I think the reasons for Ferrari's ban are pretty clear and I stand by the admins 100% on their decision.

I come here to discuss Stanford-related topics primarily sports.  Plenty of other places to vent on politics.  I like that we try to keep it (mostly) out of this board, and I think it's a good safeguard against this community being turned more negative like the alternatives have become.

[2006alum]

Dear Lord talk about making a mountain out of a molehill...

I've never even met garvin so I won't venture into that quagmire, but I think the reasons for Ferrari's ban are pretty clear and I stand by the admins 100% on their decision.

I come here to discuss Stanford-related topics primarily sports.  Plenty of other places to vent on politics.  I like that we try to keep it (mostly) out of this board, and I think it's a good safeguard against this community being turned more negative like the alternatives have become.

+1.

[2006alum]

Dear Lord talk about making a mountain out of a molehill...

I've never even met garvin so I won't venture into that quagmire, but I think the reasons for Ferrari's ban are pretty clear and I stand by the admins 100% on their decision.

I come here to discuss Stanford-related topics primarily sports.  Plenty of other places to vent on politics.  I like that we try to keep it (mostly) out of this board, and I think it's a good safeguard against this community being turned more negative like the alternatives have become.

+1.

[North Woods]

Being civil to each other and especially to the people who run this seems like a very reasonable condition of membership.

Yvonne volunteers a great deal of her time so that the rest of us can enjoy the site. As a result, she has earned the benefit of the doubt in managing this, even when there are regrettable consequences. As sad as I am about the past few days, I support the admins as well.

[North Woods]

Being civil to each other and especially to the people who run this seems like a very reasonable condition of membership.

Yvonne volunteers a great deal of her time so that the rest of us can enjoy the site. As a result, she has earned the benefit of the doubt in managing this, even when there are regrettable consequences. As sad as I am about the past few days, I support the admins as well.

[Hurlburt88]

+1 NorthWoods! 

[Hurlburt88]

+1 NorthWoods! 

[JohnR34231]

I am certainly sorry to see Garvin go, if in fact he permanently has. I think he was one of the most valuable contributors to this board.

It seems like internet political discussions have a tendency to get ugly, and the Stupac/Ferrari affair shows we are not immune to that tendency. That's why I would prefer not to see them on the Cardboard. There are plenty of other forums to visit if you enjoy them.

[JohnR34231]

I am certainly sorry to see Garvin go, if in fact he permanently has. I think he was one of the most valuable contributors to this board.

It seems like internet political discussions have a tendency to get ugly, and the Stupac/Ferrari affair shows we are not immune to that tendency. That's why I would prefer not to see them on the Cardboard. There are plenty of other forums to visit if you enjoy them.

[Mick]

I don't know if this is a direct analogy, but I used to have an incredibly valuable, incredibly productive employee who used to irritate the living sxxt out of the other employees.  She did great work, but her interpersonal skills were so incredibly lacking that she eventually had to go.  She suggested that her cheese-grater-like personality was part of what made her so effective, my take was that making other people feel uncomfortable and occasionally being insubordinate was a perk that she awarded herself as a valued, productive employee.

And when she left, the business stopped in its tracks, and all the other employees mounted a campaign to win her back to the business.  Oh wait...that was her dream version of the ending.  What actually happened was that the dialogue improved immeasurably and the business works just fine, thank you.  And no one missed the caustic remarks, and I certainly don't miss an insubordinate subordinate.

[Mick]

I don't know if this is a direct analogy, but I used to have an incredibly valuable, incredibly productive employee who used to irritate the living sxxt out of the other employees.  She did great work, but her interpersonal skills were so incredibly lacking that she eventually had to go.  She suggested that her cheese-grater-like personality was part of what made her so effective, my take was that making other people feel uncomfortable and occasionally being insubordinate was a perk that she awarded herself as a valued, productive employee.

And when she left, the business stopped in its tracks, and all the other employees mounted a campaign to win her back to the business.  Oh wait...that was her dream version of the ending.  What actually happened was that the dialogue improved immeasurably and the business works just fine, thank you.  And no one missed the caustic remarks, and I certainly don't miss an insubordinate subordinate.

[FarmBoy]

I don't know if this is a direct analogy, but I used to have an incredibly valuable, incredibly productive employee who used to irritate the living sxxt out of the other employees.  She did great work, but her interpersonal skills were so incredibly lacking that she eventually had to go.  She suggested that her cheese-grater-like personality was part of what made her so effective, my take was that making other people feel uncomfortable and occasionally being insubordinate was a perk that she awarded herself as a valued, productive employee.

And when she left, the business stopped in its tracks, and all the other employees mounted a campaign to win her back to the business.  Oh wait...that was her dream version of the ending.  What actually happened was that the dialogue improved immeasurably and the business works just fine, thank you.  And no one missed the caustic remarks, and I certainly don't miss an insubordinate subordinate.

An interesting anecdote and definitely something that every employee should know. But I know I will miss garvin's dedication, wit, and insight. I rarely agreed with is politics but never had a problem with his posts and commentary because they were thoughtful, well executed, and even if disrespectful of left of center views, not in a way that rankled, until his "ragequitting" post (love that term now). I'd love to have him back. I won't be sad if Ferrari never returns because, like the subordinate in Mick's story, I don't think his contribution outweighed the negatives of his presence. It's not about having the "wrong ideas", it's about have the wrong personality and style.

[FarmBoy]

I don't know if this is a direct analogy, but I used to have an incredibly valuable, incredibly productive employee who used to irritate the living sxxt out of the other employees.  She did great work, but her interpersonal skills were so incredibly lacking that she eventually had to go.  She suggested that her cheese-grater-like personality was part of what made her so effective, my take was that making other people feel uncomfortable and occasionally being insubordinate was a perk that she awarded herself as a valued, productive employee.

And when she left, the business stopped in its tracks, and all the other employees mounted a campaign to win her back to the business.  Oh wait...that was her dream version of the ending.  What actually happened was that the dialogue improved immeasurably and the business works just fine, thank you.  And no one missed the caustic remarks, and I certainly don't miss an insubordinate subordinate.

An interesting anecdote and definitely something that every employee should know. But I know I will miss garvin's dedication, wit, and insight. I rarely agreed with is politics but never had a problem with his posts and commentary because they were thoughtful, well executed, and even if disrespectful of left of center views, not in a way that rankled, until his "ragequitting" post (love that term now). I'd love to have him back. I won't be sad if Ferrari never returns because, like the subordinate in Mick's story, I don't think his contribution outweighed the negatives of his presence. It's not about having the "wrong ideas", it's about have the wrong personality and style.

[teejers1]

"And now I'm sitting here overcome by nostalgia and trying to absorb the reality: garvin...the Trotsky to Yvonne's Lenin...is gone."

Was there a post by garvin to this effect?

If so, do you mind linking it?

He leads a more principled life than I - the banning was silly - but hey, this is Yvonne's world and we can choose to live in it . . . or not.

[teejers1]

"And now I'm sitting here overcome by nostalgia and trying to absorb the reality: garvin...the Trotsky to Yvonne's Lenin...is gone."

Was there a post by garvin to this effect?

If so, do you mind linking it?

He leads a more principled life than I - the banning was silly - but hey, this is Yvonne's world and we can choose to live in it . . . or not.

[terry]

I am certainly sorry to see Garvin go, if in fact he permanently has. I think he was one of the most valuable contributors to this board.

It seems like internet political discussions have a tendency to get ugly, and the Stupac/Ferrari affair shows we are not immune to that tendency. That's why I would prefer not to see them on the Cardboard. There are plenty of other forums to visit if you enjoy them.

Yes, I agree with all of this.

I hope Garvin comes back. I really appreciate Yvonne and I hope she keeps this board going for years to come. And let's keep the political discussion elsewhere.

[terry]

I am certainly sorry to see Garvin go, if in fact he permanently has. I think he was one of the most valuable contributors to this board.

It seems like internet political discussions have a tendency to get ugly, and the Stupac/Ferrari affair shows we are not immune to that tendency. That's why I would prefer not to see them on the Cardboard. There are plenty of other forums to visit if you enjoy them.

Yes, I agree with all of this.

I hope Garvin comes back. I really appreciate Yvonne and I hope she keeps this board going for years to come. And let's keep the political discussion elsewhere.

[winflop]

+1 NorthWoods!

+2

[winflop]

+1 NorthWoods!

+2

[terry]

Being civil to each other and especially to the people who run this seems like a very reasonable condition of membership.

Yvonne volunteers a great deal of her time so that the rest of us can enjoy the site. As a result, she has earned the benefit of the doubt in managing this, even when there are regrettable consequences. As sad as I am about the past few days, I support the admins as well.

Agreed.

[terry]

Being civil to each other and especially to the people who run this seems like a very reasonable condition of membership.

Yvonne volunteers a great deal of her time so that the rest of us can enjoy the site. As a result, she has earned the benefit of the doubt in managing this, even when there are regrettable consequences. As sad as I am about the past few days, I support the admins as well.

Agreed.

[Bruce Wang]

It's clear to me now that Ferrari was an agent of the Bootboard that came here to sow discord in an attempt to start a Civil War that would tear this haven apart.  And we fell for it.

[Bruce Wang]

It's clear to me now that Ferrari was an agent of the Bootboard that came here to sow discord in an attempt to start a Civil War that would tear this haven apart.  And we fell for it.

[BobK]

Probably kidding but Ferrari was never on the boot board or bootleg

[BobK]

Probably kidding but Ferrari was never on the boot board or bootleg

[FrankO]

It's clear to me now that Ferrari was an agent of the Bootboard that came here to sow discord in an attempt to start a Civil War that would tear this haven apart.  And we fell for it.

Ummm... I'm a bootleg regular as is Terry2, Bobbk/Bobk and Teejers... and Mick... I don't recall Ferrari ever being there... and if he was,  it was under another pseudonym...

I'm on all 3 boards... FrankO here and on the bootleg, and MITgrad on Rivals... the only place I've see Ferrari is here

my feeling is that all 3 boards have their deserved particular niche

I remember both Yvonne and Garvin being back on the bootleg before they left for the Carboard... and was happy to discover him migrated over here after rejoining here... along with Hulk and BC whose insights/posts I also missed on the bootleg...

[FrankO]

It's clear to me now that Ferrari was an agent of the Bootboard that came here to sow discord in an attempt to start a Civil War that would tear this haven apart.  And we fell for it.

Ummm... I'm a bootleg regular as is Terry2, Bobbk/Bobk and Teejers... and Mick... I don't recall Ferrari ever being there... and if he was,  it was under another pseudonym...

I'm on all 3 boards... FrankO here and on the bootleg, and MITgrad on Rivals... the only place I've see Ferrari is here

my feeling is that all 3 boards have their deserved particular niche

I remember both Yvonne and Garvin being back on the bootleg before they left for the Carboard... and was happy to discover him migrated over here after rejoining here... along with Hulk and BC whose insights/posts I also missed on the bootleg...

[81alum]

If Yvonne or anyone else wanted my advice, here it is:

I'm a political scientist and I lead my students (of very different ideologies) through discussion of political controversies on almost a daily basis.  I would never want to attempt to do that online, in an electronic format.  Body language, facial expressions, and eye contact are critical parts of communication when it comes to showing empathy and judging sincerity.  With  that missing, motives can easily be misinterpreted, distorted, and exaggerated and the ability to listen with sympathy to someone who holds views that you find disagreeable is greatly diminished.

Despite that, this board did remarkably well on a couple of hot-button political threads that would have blown up much more rapidly in a different venue.  But we danced with fire too many times and people began to step over the boundaries for civil behavior.  The gradual increase in the number and intensity of these political threads gradually desensitized us to civil boundaries appropriate for a sports board.

That is why I voted to ban political threads.  I can save my political talk for face-to-face if that helps to preserve the sports community here.  I'm not at all surprised that Yvonne and Garvin have reportedly been face-to-face friends in the past, and that this sad rift occurred through electronic media.  That is worth thinking about.

So I think some strict new rules about political posts, a re commitment of us all to press the reset button to make this more strictly a sports board, and amnesty for all past transgressors would be my preferred remedy.  Hurt feelings, anger, apologies, and concerns about offensive statements between individuals should be sorted through offline--preferably face to face or at least by voice.

[81alum]

If Yvonne or anyone else wanted my advice, here it is:

I'm a political scientist and I lead my students (of very different ideologies) through discussion of political controversies on almost a daily basis.  I would never want to attempt to do that online, in an electronic format.  Body language, facial expressions, and eye contact are critical parts of communication when it comes to showing empathy and judging sincerity.  With  that missing, motives can easily be misinterpreted, distorted, and exaggerated and the ability to listen with sympathy to someone who holds views that you find disagreeable is greatly diminished.

Despite that, this board did remarkably well on a couple of hot-button political threads that would have blown up much more rapidly in a different venue.  But we danced with fire too many times and people began to step over the boundaries for civil behavior.  The gradual increase in the number and intensity of these political threads gradually desensitized us to civil boundaries appropriate for a sports board.

That is why I voted to ban political threads.  I can save my political talk for face-to-face if that helps to preserve the sports community here.  I'm not at all surprised that Yvonne and Garvin have reportedly been face-to-face friends in the past, and that this sad rift occurred through electronic media.  That is worth thinking about.

So I think some strict new rules about political posts, a re commitment of us all to press the reset button to make this more strictly a sports board, and amnesty for all past transgressors would be my preferred remedy.  Hurt feelings, anger, apologies, and concerns about offensive statements between individuals should be sorted through offline--preferably face to face or at least by voice.

[GoodGrief]

It's clear to me now that Ferrari was an agent of the Bootboard that came here to sow discord in an attempt to start a Civil War that would tear this haven apart.  And we fell for it.

Publius was totally joking about this. There's some historical reference in his quip because apparently in the early days of the Cardboard, there were some Bootleg people who came on the Cardboard and posted subversive demeaning comments.

It is bizarre that the Cardboard is at a crisis point from one annoying poster. I'm really bummed at the prospect of Garvin leaving. For me, reading his football recaps were always the closing martini shot to the game. Maybe I'll have to post recaps in his place. And boy will they be great. ("Christian McCaffrey ran really really fast for a touchdown. Wow is he fast. Apparently somebody did a good block or something because the announcers said something about the block but I just watch the ball so I didn't see it. And then defense happened. And then Bryce Love ran really really fast for a touchdown. Wow, he's fast too.")

[GoodGrief]

It's clear to me now that Ferrari was an agent of the Bootboard that came here to sow discord in an attempt to start a Civil War that would tear this haven apart.  And we fell for it.

Publius was totally joking about this. There's some historical reference in his quip because apparently in the early days of the Cardboard, there were some Bootleg people who came on the Cardboard and posted subversive demeaning comments.

It is bizarre that the Cardboard is at a crisis point from one annoying poster. I'm really bummed at the prospect of Garvin leaving. For me, reading his football recaps were always the closing martini shot to the game. Maybe I'll have to post recaps in his place. And boy will they be great. ("Christian McCaffrey ran really really fast for a touchdown. Wow is he fast. Apparently somebody did a good block or something because the announcers said something about the block but I just watch the ball so I didn't see it. And then defense happened. And then Bryce Love ran really really fast for a touchdown. Wow, he's fast too.")

[Gauss]

It is bizarre that the Cardboard is at a crisis point from one annoying poster. I'm really bummed at the prospect of Garvin leaving. For me, reading his football recaps were always the closing martini shot to the game. Maybe I'll have to post recaps in his place. And boy will they be great. ("Christian McCaffrey ran really really fast for a touchdown. Wow is he fast. Apparently somebody did a good block or something because the announcers said something about the block but I just watch the ball so I didn't see it. And then defense happened. And then Bryce Love ran really really fast for a touchdown. Wow, he's fast too.")

Well, GoodGrief. Those recaps of yours will probably never earn a pulitzer prize, but I wouldn't mind if you posted them regularly. Especially with that precise type of content.

[Gauss]

It is bizarre that the Cardboard is at a crisis point from one annoying poster. I'm really bummed at the prospect of Garvin leaving. For me, reading his football recaps were always the closing martini shot to the game. Maybe I'll have to post recaps in his place. And boy will they be great. ("Christian McCaffrey ran really really fast for a touchdown. Wow is he fast. Apparently somebody did a good block or something because the announcers said something about the block but I just watch the ball so I didn't see it. And then defense happened. And then Bryce Love ran really really fast for a touchdown. Wow, he's fast too.")

Well, GoodGrief. Those recaps of yours will probably never earn a pulitzer prize, but I wouldn't mind if you posted them regularly. Especially with that precise type of content.