[JJJ]

I thought some people on this board might have a passing interest in the Paly grad's latest NYT headline. Warning: The 6.5minute video was painful for me to watch.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/sports...&te=1&_r=0

On April 5, Kuei uploaded her finished product, a six-and-a-half-minute video, to YouTube. She called it “Jeremy Lin: Too Flagrant Not to Call.” Piecing together clips of Lin over the years getting whacked in the face, clotheslined, bleeding, tumbling to the floor — all without ever drawing a flagrant foul — Kuei tried to convey that Lin, an American-born son of immigrants from Taiwan, was the victim of excessive physicality from opponents and insufficient protection from the league and its referees.

[JJJ]

I thought some people on this board might have a passing interest in the Paly grad's latest NYT headline. Warning: The 6.5minute video was painful for me to watch.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/sports...&te=1&_r=0

On April 5, Kuei uploaded her finished product, a six-and-a-half-minute video, to YouTube. She called it “Jeremy Lin: Too Flagrant Not to Call.” Piecing together clips of Lin over the years getting whacked in the face, clotheslined, bleeding, tumbling to the floor — all without ever drawing a flagrant foul — Kuei tried to convey that Lin, an American-born son of immigrants from Taiwan, was the victim of excessive physicality from opponents and insufficient protection from the league and its referees.

[Mick]

I thought some people on this board might have a passing interest in the Paly grad's latest NYT headline. Warning: The 6.5minute video was painful for me to watch.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/sports...&te=1&_r=0

On April 5, Kuei uploaded her finished product, a six-and-a-half-minute video, to YouTube. She called it “Jeremy Lin: Too Flagrant Not to Call.” Piecing together clips of Lin over the years getting whacked in the face, clotheslined, bleeding, tumbling to the floor — all without ever drawing a flagrant foul — Kuei tried to convey that Lin, an American-born son of immigrants from Taiwan, was the victim of excessive physicality from opponents and insufficient protection from the league and its referees.

Funny, as I was watching this and after I read "Critics of the video have suggested that similar ones could be made about other players," I was thinking of all the times that Steph Curry got slaughtered with absolutely no foul called.  I sincerely doubt Lin is treated any differently. I do think some players get calls they don't deserve (Harden, James), and some players get hammered...but it's not because of his race.

Side note, I have a photo of my son with Jeremy Lin, taken on University Avenue last summer.  He said he was a genuinely nice man, good sense of humor, modest etc.

[Mick]

I thought some people on this board might have a passing interest in the Paly grad's latest NYT headline. Warning: The 6.5minute video was painful for me to watch.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/sports...&te=1&_r=0

On April 5, Kuei uploaded her finished product, a six-and-a-half-minute video, to YouTube. She called it “Jeremy Lin: Too Flagrant Not to Call.” Piecing together clips of Lin over the years getting whacked in the face, clotheslined, bleeding, tumbling to the floor — all without ever drawing a flagrant foul — Kuei tried to convey that Lin, an American-born son of immigrants from Taiwan, was the victim of excessive physicality from opponents and insufficient protection from the league and its referees.

Funny, as I was watching this and after I read "Critics of the video have suggested that similar ones could be made about other players," I was thinking of all the times that Steph Curry got slaughtered with absolutely no foul called.  I sincerely doubt Lin is treated any differently. I do think some players get calls they don't deserve (Harden, James), and some players get hammered...but it's not because of his race.

Side note, I have a photo of my son with Jeremy Lin, taken on University Avenue last summer.  He said he was a genuinely nice man, good sense of humor, modest etc.

[2006alum]

But shouldn't we still care, even if the reason is because of Lin's (and Curry's) size (as Steve Kerr alleges he also suffered from), rather than race? Whatever the reason, disparate treatment is very troubling in a sport that relies on the integrity of officiating for people to take the sport seriously?

[2006alum]

But shouldn't we still care, even if the reason is because of Lin's (and Curry's) size (as Steve Kerr alleges he also suffered from), rather than race? Whatever the reason, disparate treatment is very troubling in a sport that relies on the integrity of officiating for people to take the sport seriously?

[CowboyIndian]

... a sport that relies on the integrity of officiating for people to take the sport seriously?

Apparently it doesn't...at all. That ship sailed a lo-o-o-o-ng time ago. I defy you to tell me what's a foul and what isn't in the NBA. That's why I've come to despise it....in spite of the Warriors.

[CowboyIndian]

... a sport that relies on the integrity of officiating for people to take the sport seriously?

Apparently it doesn't...at all. That ship sailed a lo-o-o-o-ng time ago. I defy you to tell me what's a foul and what isn't in the NBA. That's why I've come to despise it....in spite of the Warriors.

[shinsengumi]

[quote author=2006alum link=topic=14908.msg160832#msg160832 date=1460734670]
... a sport that relies on the integrity of officiating for people to take the sport seriously?

Apparently it doesn't...at all. That ship sailed a lo-o-o-o-ng time ago. I defy you to tell me what's a foul and what isn't in the NBA. That's why I've come to despise it....in spite of the Warriors.
[/quote]

What constitutes offensive holding, or defensive pass interference, or for that matter, a completed catch? Lots of subjective calls in many sports.

[shinsengumi]

[quote author=2006alum link=topic=14908.msg160832#msg160832 date=1460734670]
... a sport that relies on the integrity of officiating for people to take the sport seriously?

Apparently it doesn't...at all. That ship sailed a lo-o-o-o-ng time ago. I defy you to tell me what's a foul and what isn't in the NBA. That's why I've come to despise it....in spite of the Warriors.
[/quote]

What constitutes offensive holding, or defensive pass interference, or for that matter, a completed catch? Lots of subjective calls in many sports.

[burger]

I'm too lazy to look it up, but aren't there a number of studies showing racially biased officiating in several sports?  I recall reading somewhere recently that white NBA officials call more fouls on black players, and vice versa. 

(I'm not saying that Lin is or isn't the victim of racial bias--I imagine you could put together a highlight reel of non-called fouls for almost any NBA player, except the superstars who clearly get preferential treatment).

[burger]

I'm too lazy to look it up, but aren't there a number of studies showing racially biased officiating in several sports?  I recall reading somewhere recently that white NBA officials call more fouls on black players, and vice versa. 

(I'm not saying that Lin is or isn't the victim of racial bias--I imagine you could put together a highlight reel of non-called fouls for almost any NBA player, except the superstars who clearly get preferential treatment).

[Mick]

[quote author=CowboyIndian link=topic=14908.msg160833#msg160833 date=1460735974]
[quote author=2006alum link=topic=14908.msg160832#msg160832 date=1460734670]
... a sport that relies on the integrity of officiating for people to take the sport seriously?

Apparently it doesn't...at all. That ship sailed a lo-o-o-o-ng time ago. I defy you to tell me what's a foul and what isn't in the NBA. That's why I've come to despise it....in spite of the Warriors.
[/quote]

What constitutes offensive holding, or defensive pass interference, or for that matter, a completed catch? Lots of subjective calls in many sports.
[/quote]


You want to be entertained, watch the balls-and-strikes by live umpires relative to the dictionary definition of the strike zone administered by radar.  Now THAT's funny.  One study shows that 12.3% of strikes are actually called balls, and 15.0 % of balls are actually called strikes.  In this study of major league umpires, the best umpire was 12.3% wrong and the worst umpire was 16.9% wrong...that's every sixth pitch at worst and every eigth pitch at best.  Ugh.

[Mick]

[quote author=CowboyIndian link=topic=14908.msg160833#msg160833 date=1460735974]
[quote author=2006alum link=topic=14908.msg160832#msg160832 date=1460734670]
... a sport that relies on the integrity of officiating for people to take the sport seriously?

Apparently it doesn't...at all. That ship sailed a lo-o-o-o-ng time ago. I defy you to tell me what's a foul and what isn't in the NBA. That's why I've come to despise it....in spite of the Warriors.
[/quote]

What constitutes offensive holding, or defensive pass interference, or for that matter, a completed catch? Lots of subjective calls in many sports.
[/quote]


You want to be entertained, watch the balls-and-strikes by live umpires relative to the dictionary definition of the strike zone administered by radar.  Now THAT's funny.  One study shows that 12.3% of strikes are actually called balls, and 15.0 % of balls are actually called strikes.  In this study of major league umpires, the best umpire was 12.3% wrong and the worst umpire was 16.9% wrong...that's every sixth pitch at worst and every eigth pitch at best.  Ugh.

[2006alum]

[quote author=2006alum link=topic=14908.msg160832#msg160832 date=1460734670]
... a sport that relies on the integrity of officiating for people to take the sport seriously?

Apparently it doesn't...at all. That ship sailed a lo-o-o-o-ng time ago. I defy you to tell me what's a foul and what isn't in the NBA. That's why I've come to despise it....in spite of the Warriors.
[/quote]

I guess that's my point. Rather than just be satisfied with the answer, "No, it's not because he's Asian, it's because he's small," the answer should be, "Yikes, the league needs to address systematic bias in calling fouls. Otherwise people like CowboyIndian stop watching and we lose revenue, attendance, credibility, etc."

[2006alum]

[quote author=2006alum link=topic=14908.msg160832#msg160832 date=1460734670]
... a sport that relies on the integrity of officiating for people to take the sport seriously?

Apparently it doesn't...at all. That ship sailed a lo-o-o-o-ng time ago. I defy you to tell me what's a foul and what isn't in the NBA. That's why I've come to despise it....in spite of the Warriors.
[/quote]

I guess that's my point. Rather than just be satisfied with the answer, "No, it's not because he's Asian, it's because he's small," the answer should be, "Yikes, the league needs to address systematic bias in calling fouls. Otherwise people like CowboyIndian stop watching and we lose revenue, attendance, credibility, etc."

[BostonCard]

(Chamberlain never fouled in his entire career.) .

A little hyperbole?  Or did you mean to say Chamberlain never fouled out in his entire career.

[BostonCard]

(Chamberlain never fouled in his entire career.) .

A little hyperbole?  Or did you mean to say Chamberlain never fouled out in his entire career.

[BostonCard]

I too was a bit underwhelmed by the video.  Some of those fouls definitely should have been called flagrant, but there are plenty of times when players get hammered like that and it is just called an ordinary foul.  The fact that he had gotten hit in the head a few times is a bit irrelevant to the discussion (except the one time he got a nose bleed and no foul whatsoever was called).  A foul isn't any more flagrant because contact was made with the head.  It just needs to be unnecessary or excessive contact, usually when the defensive player swings and makes hard contact or follows through after the contact.  As I said, a few of those probably should have been called flagrant, but they weren't such thorough muggings that you have to ask yourself how the refs didn't see it.

BC

[BostonCard]

I too was a bit underwhelmed by the video.  Some of those fouls definitely should have been called flagrant, but there are plenty of times when players get hammered like that and it is just called an ordinary foul.  The fact that he had gotten hit in the head a few times is a bit irrelevant to the discussion (except the one time he got a nose bleed and no foul whatsoever was called).  A foul isn't any more flagrant because contact was made with the head.  It just needs to be unnecessary or excessive contact, usually when the defensive player swings and makes hard contact or follows through after the contact.  As I said, a few of those probably should have been called flagrant, but they weren't such thorough muggings that you have to ask yourself how the refs didn't see it.

BC

[Mick]

[quote author=garvin link=topic=14908.msg160838#msg160838 date=1460737575]
(Chamberlain never fouled in his entire career.) .

A little hyperbole?  Or did you mean to say Chamberlain never fouled out in his entire career.
[/quote]

He averaged 2.0 fouls per game for his career.  His worst season was 2.6 fouls per game.

[Mick]

[quote author=garvin link=topic=14908.msg160838#msg160838 date=1460737575]
(Chamberlain never fouled in his entire career.) .

A little hyperbole?  Or did you mean to say Chamberlain never fouled out in his entire career.
[/quote]

He averaged 2.0 fouls per game for his career.  His worst season was 2.6 fouls per game.

[Mick]

I too was a bit underwhelmed by the video.  Some of those fouls definitely should have been called flagrant, but there are plenty of times when players get hammered like that and it is just called an ordinary foul.  The fact that he had gotten hit in the head a few times is a bit irrelevant to the discussion (except the one time he got a nose bleed and no foul whatsoever was called).  A foul isn't any more flagrant because contact was made with the head.  It just needs to be unnecessary or excessive contact, usually when the defensive player swings and makes hard contact or follows through after the contact.  As I said, a few of those probably should have been called flagrant, but they weren't such thorough muggings that you have to ask yourself how the refs didn't see it.

BC

Honestly, I thought there were going to be about 30 flagrant fouls.  He's played well over 10,000 minutes in his career, and the video includes 6 or 7 plays.  that doesn't scream out anything to me, much less racist attitudes. 

That said, I think the "cool kids" get away with a lot...like Harden. The "uncool kids" who drive a lot like Steph Curry and Lin get away with basically nothing, and the refs allow other teams to whale on them.

[Mick]

I too was a bit underwhelmed by the video.  Some of those fouls definitely should have been called flagrant, but there are plenty of times when players get hammered like that and it is just called an ordinary foul.  The fact that he had gotten hit in the head a few times is a bit irrelevant to the discussion (except the one time he got a nose bleed and no foul whatsoever was called).  A foul isn't any more flagrant because contact was made with the head.  It just needs to be unnecessary or excessive contact, usually when the defensive player swings and makes hard contact or follows through after the contact.  As I said, a few of those probably should have been called flagrant, but they weren't such thorough muggings that you have to ask yourself how the refs didn't see it.

BC

Honestly, I thought there were going to be about 30 flagrant fouls.  He's played well over 10,000 minutes in his career, and the video includes 6 or 7 plays.  that doesn't scream out anything to me, much less racist attitudes. 

That said, I think the "cool kids" get away with a lot...like Harden. The "uncool kids" who drive a lot like Steph Curry and Lin get away with basically nothing, and the refs allow other teams to whale on them.

[shinsengumi]

The fact that he had gotten hit in the head a few times is a bit irrelevant to the discussion

The NBA rules state differently. See below:

Note, however, that a foul committed during a block attempt can still be considered flagrant if other criteria are present such as recklessness and hard contact to the head)

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/04...technical/

[shinsengumi]

The fact that he had gotten hit in the head a few times is a bit irrelevant to the discussion

The NBA rules state differently. See below:

Note, however, that a foul committed during a block attempt can still be considered flagrant if other criteria are present such as recklessness and hard contact to the head)

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/04...technical/

[BostonCard]

I was going by this:

http://www.nba.com/features/misunderstoo...51128.html

Flagrant Fouls: These fouls are considered unnecessary and/or excessive. There are two types of flagrant fouls, 1 and 2. A flagrant 1 is unnecessary contact. This is usually when a defensive player swings and makes hard contact with the offensive player or makes hard contact and then follows through. A flagrant foul 2 is unnecessary and excessive contact. This usually has a swinging motion, hard contact, and a follow through. Both fouls carry a penalty of two free throws and the team that was fouled retains possession. A flagrant foul 2 also results in an ejection of the player committing the foul. A player also is ejected if he commits two flagrant foul penalty 1’s.

No wonder enforcement is so inconsistent; the NBA doesn't even message consistently.

BC

[BostonCard]

I was going by this:

http://www.nba.com/features/misunderstoo...51128.html

Flagrant Fouls: These fouls are considered unnecessary and/or excessive. There are two types of flagrant fouls, 1 and 2. A flagrant 1 is unnecessary contact. This is usually when a defensive player swings and makes hard contact with the offensive player or makes hard contact and then follows through. A flagrant foul 2 is unnecessary and excessive contact. This usually has a swinging motion, hard contact, and a follow through. Both fouls carry a penalty of two free throws and the team that was fouled retains possession. A flagrant foul 2 also results in an ejection of the player committing the foul. A player also is ejected if he commits two flagrant foul penalty 1’s.

No wonder enforcement is so inconsistent; the NBA doesn't even message consistently.

BC

[Bruce Wang]

In retrospect, Trent Johnson's mishandling of Jeremy Lin's recruitment was his biggest mistake.  If we hadn't jerked him around, we could have had 4 players that ended up in the NBA on our team.

[Bruce Wang]

In retrospect, Trent Johnson's mishandling of Jeremy Lin's recruitment was his biggest mistake.  If we hadn't jerked him around, we could have had 4 players that ended up in the NBA on our team.

[CowboyIndian]

What constitutes offensive holding, or defensive pass interference, or for that matter, a completed catch? Lots of subjective calls in many sports.

I don't think those are all that comparable but OK...let's talk about traveling then, shall we? It has a pretty specific definition, as I recall.

[CowboyIndian]

What constitutes offensive holding, or defensive pass interference, or for that matter, a completed catch? Lots of subjective calls in many sports.

I don't think those are all that comparable but OK...let's talk about traveling then, shall we? It has a pretty specific definition, as I recall.

[terry]

You want to be entertained, watch the balls-and-strikes by live umpires relative to the dictionary definition of the strike zone administered by radar.  Now THAT's funny.  One study shows that 12.3% of strikes are actually called balls, and 15.0 % of balls are actually called strikes.  In this study of major league umpires, the best umpire was 12.3% wrong and the worst umpire was 16.9% wrong...that's every sixth pitch at worst and every eigth pitch at best.  Ugh.

Yep, balls and strikes routinely are called wrong. Umpires used to talk about "my strike zone" as though they get to define it however they want. Not sure whether they still talk that way, but they still call it that way.

[terry]

You want to be entertained, watch the balls-and-strikes by live umpires relative to the dictionary definition of the strike zone administered by radar.  Now THAT's funny.  One study shows that 12.3% of strikes are actually called balls, and 15.0 % of balls are actually called strikes.  In this study of major league umpires, the best umpire was 12.3% wrong and the worst umpire was 16.9% wrong...that's every sixth pitch at worst and every eigth pitch at best.  Ugh.

Yep, balls and strikes routinely are called wrong. Umpires used to talk about "my strike zone" as though they get to define it however they want. Not sure whether they still talk that way, but they still call it that way.

[CornFed]

It must exist, at least in some rudimentary form, as it is now used almost universally in baseball telecasts.  I trust it more than I do most umpires.

Didn't Sandy Alderson take charge of the umpires a number of years ago?  I think he put the fear of "A Power Greater Than Themselves" in them at that time.  IIRC, Alderson's tenure covered the period of the umpire strike (no pun intended) and as a result there was a pretty hefty turnover of personnel at that time.  Seems to me that any effect, however, was temporary.

[CornFed]

It must exist, at least in some rudimentary form, as it is now used almost universally in baseball telecasts.  I trust it more than I do most umpires.

Didn't Sandy Alderson take charge of the umpires a number of years ago?  I think he put the fear of "A Power Greater Than Themselves" in them at that time.  IIRC, Alderson's tenure covered the period of the umpire strike (no pun intended) and as a result there was a pretty hefty turnover of personnel at that time.  Seems to me that any effect, however, was temporary.

[fullmetal]

Ouch.  That's all I got.

[fullmetal]

Ouch.  That's all I got.

[Hank 91]

Here's some news regarding Jeremy Lin that's much more fun. Trust me.

https://datwinning.com/2016/04/13/tennes...ggest-fan/

[Hank 91]

Here's some news regarding Jeremy Lin that's much more fun. Trust me.

https://datwinning.com/2016/04/13/tennes...ggest-fan/