[Goose]

I know there are folks here who want to see Ukraine fight to retake every inch of territory Russia has taken so far.  This is more directed at those in the media whom I have heard advocating for a negotiation to trade territory for peace.  Just compare the amount of territory Russia has stolen from Ukraine (46,000 sq miles) to the amount of territory the Arabs are trying to take from Israel (2,400 sq miles).  If the Israelis are willing to fight for generations to retain that relatively small amount of territory, what makes us think Ukrainians will not fight just as hard for 19x the amount of land?  And why should they not?

It isn't just the media unfortunately. It is also places like Italy and to a degree France. Most importantly, it is a choice that isn't actually on offer. When Russia took Crimea and the (relatively small) parts of Luhansk Oblast and Donetsk Oblast it was tacitly if not explicitly assumed by most of the West that that was the extent of what would happen. Yes, it sucked for Ukraine but that was just the way it was.

Russia paused, but did not stop. Given subsequent events there is no reason to expect Russia will accept the existence of a strong, viable Ukraine. Certainly Putin won't. A strong viable Ukraine can't exist under threat of invasion whenever Russia feels strong enough. It also can't exist without access to the Sea of Azov, the M14, and associated rail transport. For those reasons, Ukraine will continue to fight as long as they possibly can. Consider https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-won-t-...35993.html. It might have been possible for Ukraine to allow plebiscites in parts of the Donbas if these had been arranged instead of an invasion. They don't need every square inch and if some areas actually wanted out, that MIGHT have been fine. Under present circumstances, it certainly isn't.

The real danger is that after a long struggle Ukraine is forced by Western disinterest to cede territory for peace. It will be Munich all over again. The US and other interested parties need to work real hard on the diplomatic front to ensure that does not happen.

[Goose]

I know there are folks here who want to see Ukraine fight to retake every inch of territory Russia has taken so far.  This is more directed at those in the media whom I have heard advocating for a negotiation to trade territory for peace.  Just compare the amount of territory Russia has stolen from Ukraine (46,000 sq miles) to the amount of territory the Arabs are trying to take from Israel (2,400 sq miles).  If the Israelis are willing to fight for generations to retain that relatively small amount of territory, what makes us think Ukrainians will not fight just as hard for 19x the amount of land?  And why should they not?

It isn't just the media unfortunately. It is also places like Italy and to a degree France. Most importantly, it is a choice that isn't actually on offer. When Russia took Crimea and the (relatively small) parts of Luhansk Oblast and Donetsk Oblast it was tacitly if not explicitly assumed by most of the West that that was the extent of what would happen. Yes, it sucked for Ukraine but that was just the way it was.

Russia paused, but did not stop. Given subsequent events there is no reason to expect Russia will accept the existence of a strong, viable Ukraine. Certainly Putin won't. A strong viable Ukraine can't exist under threat of invasion whenever Russia feels strong enough. It also can't exist without access to the Sea of Azov, the M14, and associated rail transport. For those reasons, Ukraine will continue to fight as long as they possibly can. Consider https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-won-t-...35993.html. It might have been possible for Ukraine to allow plebiscites in parts of the Donbas if these had been arranged instead of an invasion. They don't need every square inch and if some areas actually wanted out, that MIGHT have been fine. Under present circumstances, it certainly isn't.

The real danger is that after a long struggle Ukraine is forced by Western disinterest to cede territory for peace. It will be Munich all over again. The US and other interested parties need to work real hard on the diplomatic front to ensure that does not happen.