[teejers1]

There indeed is a group (great mass?) of quarterbacks who are not elite and who are dependent on their surrounding offensive teammates, their defense and their coaches in order to win. Garoppolo is obviously in this cohort.

but aren't all QBs dependent on their surrounding cast and coach?  Like say Jim Plunkett....

Depends on your definition of “dependent”.   Personally, I think there  are some QB’s that are system  dependent (Drew Brees and Lamar Jackson to give two extremes) others that would thrive in any system (Mahomes and Elway come to mind). Obviously, any is going to win and achieve more with a better supporting cast and system.  There is a reason, for example, that Elway’s Denver teams got trashed in his first three SB’s and won his last two.  

But I am talking about QBs that have the talent etc to be starting NFL QBs. And those are few and far between.  With few exceptions, there is a h. u. g. e. drop off between starting QB’s and their back ups.  It’s not just opportunity.  It’s ability.

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There indeed is a group (great mass?) of quarterbacks who are not elite and who are dependent on their surrounding offensive teammates, their defense and their coaches in order to win. Garoppolo is obviously in this cohort. 

Not all that interested in this argument, but was interested in your statement regarding quarterbacks who were dependent on their coaches, defense and offensive teammates for success.

I would definitely include 4-time Super Bowl winner Terry Bradshaw in that group.  He never had the best passer rating in the NFL; in fact, he only made the top four once.  He had the Steel Curtain defense and Chuck Noll.

But would you include 4-time Super Bowl winner Joe Montana in that group?

For scheme, he had the West Coast Offense in its lusty youth.  For coaches, he had The Genius, who was such a great coach that he directly spawned seven 1st generation NFL coaches (Seifert, Green, Wyche, White, Coslet, Holmgren, Rhodes and doesn't even include others who were significantly influenced by Walsh and were in his employ like Tony Dungy and Jon Gruden). 

For defense, the 49ers were ranked in fewest points given up in the NFL during Montana's heyday (starting with the first Super Bowl season) as follows: 2, 23, 4, 1, 2, 3, 3, 8, 3, 2, 4, 3. In fact, the defense and offense equally split the 1981-1990 time period; five times the defense had a better position, five times the offense had the better position.

For offensive teammates, he played with 12 time pro bowler and arguably the greatest football player in history, Jerry Rice.  Guy McIntyre, Randy Cross, Keith Fahnhorst, Roger Craig, Tom Rathman, Brent Jones, Dwight Clark, John Taylor, Fred Quillen, Jesse Sapolu, Harris Barton, Freddie Solomon, Wendell Tyler, John Frank, Russ Francis, Earl Cooper, Terrence Flagler, Ray Wersching, and Mike Cofer; to say nothing of strong role players like Harry Sydney, Mike Wilson, Wesley Walls, Jamie Williams, Dexter Carter, Jeff Kemp, Bill Ring, Matt Cavanaugh, Rickey Patton, Johnny Davis, Lenvil Elliott, Renaldo Nehemiah and Mr. Ken Margerum.

Great coaches, great schemes, great teammates.  Montana wins four Super Bowls with the 49ers (although, arguably, the 49ers don't make it into the playoffs after the 1988 season without this run from Steve Young in a 24-21 win over the Vikings: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbPwwmEcws0  
During the 1988 season, the Bears were 12-4, the Vikings were 11-5 and there were five 10-6 teams in the NFC including the Saints, Rams, 49ers, Giants and Eagles. Only the top five teams made the playoffs, the Giants and Saints don't make it in.  If the 49ers finished 9-7, they would have been out and Terry Bradshaw would have stood alone with the second most Super Bowl wins at 4.  Montana would have fallen into a tie with Troy Aikman.  I'll bet Montana sends Steve Young a nice holiday card with a thank you note ever year.  But maybe not).  

So...was Montana the product of the coaches, system and defense as you mentioned above?

Yes.  And no.  Montana had brilliant skills.  Extremely accurate .  Tremendous vision.  Mobile.   Great feet.  And as cool under pressure as they come.  He didn’t have a big arm (as opposed to Bradshaw).  

Im fairly certain that he would have been a very good to great QB anywhere he played. Would he have been a 4 time SB champ and one of the top 3 QB’s in history had he been drafted by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Probably not.  

It’s the Aaron Rodgers thing that I bring up occasionally.  By that I mean his whining about getting passed over by the Niners.  Which was the best thing that could have happened to him.  Rodgers has incredible talent.  Accurate.  Great arm.  Mobile.  He’s got all the tools.  But what would his career have been like had the Niners drafted him.  7 years.  With 7 OC’s. Bad HC’s and getting the sh-t beat out of him.  I still think he’d have been a very good to great QB.  But not one of the greatest ever.

Then there is Plunkett.  Perhaps the best example.  He is, in many ways, wrongly remembered  as the plucky guy with guile.  Not pretty, but gutsy.  Won two SBs. If you only saw him starting in his Raider days, you never really saw him.

Fact is, he was enormously talented.  A gun for an arm.  Accurate.  Not pretty when he ran, but very effective.  The greatest college QB in history at the time he graduated. H-Man. No 1 pick. And ROY with NE.  A triple that I dont believe had been done up to that point. By the time he left NE he was shell shocked.  I will never forget reading a quote from a long time NFL exec who said Plunkett got beaten up more badly than any QB he’d seen.  Ever.  I hated Chuck Fairbanks.  What he did to Plunkett was damn near criminal. 

Plunkett showed what he can do when he led the Raiders to two SB Championships with about 50% of his skill set available.  Think of what he could have achieved had he started his career on a quality team. 

So, yes.  Circumstances always matter.

Another great post, Lex, you're on a roll!
What the Colts' brain trust did to Andrew Luck (trading #1 pick for a freaking used up RB?!? instead of protecting franchise player/asset?!?) was almost as bad as what the Pats did to Plunkett.  With even decent management (as opposed to incompetent), Luck would still be playing and contending for Super Bowls.  Damn shame.

[teejers1]

There indeed is a group (great mass?) of quarterbacks who are not elite and who are dependent on their surrounding offensive teammates, their defense and their coaches in order to win. Garoppolo is obviously in this cohort.

but aren't all QBs dependent on their surrounding cast and coach?  Like say Jim Plunkett....

Depends on your definition of “dependent”.   Personally, I think there  are some QB’s that are system  dependent (Drew Brees and Lamar Jackson to give two extremes) others that would thrive in any system (Mahomes and Elway come to mind). Obviously, any is going to win and achieve more with a better supporting cast and system.  There is a reason, for example, that Elway’s Denver teams got trashed in his first three SB’s and won his last two.  

But I am talking about QBs that have the talent etc to be starting NFL QBs. And those are few and far between.  With few exceptions, there is a h. u. g. e. drop off between starting QB’s and their back ups.  It’s not just opportunity.  It’s ability.

---

There indeed is a group (great mass?) of quarterbacks who are not elite and who are dependent on their surrounding offensive teammates, their defense and their coaches in order to win. Garoppolo is obviously in this cohort. 

Not all that interested in this argument, but was interested in your statement regarding quarterbacks who were dependent on their coaches, defense and offensive teammates for success.

I would definitely include 4-time Super Bowl winner Terry Bradshaw in that group.  He never had the best passer rating in the NFL; in fact, he only made the top four once.  He had the Steel Curtain defense and Chuck Noll.

But would you include 4-time Super Bowl winner Joe Montana in that group?

For scheme, he had the West Coast Offense in its lusty youth.  For coaches, he had The Genius, who was such a great coach that he directly spawned seven 1st generation NFL coaches (Seifert, Green, Wyche, White, Coslet, Holmgren, Rhodes and doesn't even include others who were significantly influenced by Walsh and were in his employ like Tony Dungy and Jon Gruden). 

For defense, the 49ers were ranked in fewest points given up in the NFL during Montana's heyday (starting with the first Super Bowl season) as follows: 2, 23, 4, 1, 2, 3, 3, 8, 3, 2, 4, 3. In fact, the defense and offense equally split the 1981-1990 time period; five times the defense had a better position, five times the offense had the better position.

For offensive teammates, he played with 12 time pro bowler and arguably the greatest football player in history, Jerry Rice.  Guy McIntyre, Randy Cross, Keith Fahnhorst, Roger Craig, Tom Rathman, Brent Jones, Dwight Clark, John Taylor, Fred Quillen, Jesse Sapolu, Harris Barton, Freddie Solomon, Wendell Tyler, John Frank, Russ Francis, Earl Cooper, Terrence Flagler, Ray Wersching, and Mike Cofer; to say nothing of strong role players like Harry Sydney, Mike Wilson, Wesley Walls, Jamie Williams, Dexter Carter, Jeff Kemp, Bill Ring, Matt Cavanaugh, Rickey Patton, Johnny Davis, Lenvil Elliott, Renaldo Nehemiah and Mr. Ken Margerum.

Great coaches, great schemes, great teammates.  Montana wins four Super Bowls with the 49ers (although, arguably, the 49ers don't make it into the playoffs after the 1988 season without this run from Steve Young in a 24-21 win over the Vikings: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbPwwmEcws0  
During the 1988 season, the Bears were 12-4, the Vikings were 11-5 and there were five 10-6 teams in the NFC including the Saints, Rams, 49ers, Giants and Eagles. Only the top five teams made the playoffs, the Giants and Saints don't make it in.  If the 49ers finished 9-7, they would have been out and Terry Bradshaw would have stood alone with the second most Super Bowl wins at 4.  Montana would have fallen into a tie with Troy Aikman.  I'll bet Montana sends Steve Young a nice holiday card with a thank you note ever year.  But maybe not).  

So...was Montana the product of the coaches, system and defense as you mentioned above?

Yes.  And no.  Montana had brilliant skills.  Extremely accurate .  Tremendous vision.  Mobile.   Great feet.  And as cool under pressure as they come.  He didn’t have a big arm (as opposed to Bradshaw).  

Im fairly certain that he would have been a very good to great QB anywhere he played. Would he have been a 4 time SB champ and one of the top 3 QB’s in history had he been drafted by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Probably not.  

It’s the Aaron Rodgers thing that I bring up occasionally.  By that I mean his whining about getting passed over by the Niners.  Which was the best thing that could have happened to him.  Rodgers has incredible talent.  Accurate.  Great arm.  Mobile.  He’s got all the tools.  But what would his career have been like had the Niners drafted him.  7 years.  With 7 OC’s. Bad HC’s and getting the sh-t beat out of him.  I still think he’d have been a very good to great QB.  But not one of the greatest ever.

Then there is Plunkett.  Perhaps the best example.  He is, in many ways, wrongly remembered  as the plucky guy with guile.  Not pretty, but gutsy.  Won two SBs. If you only saw him starting in his Raider days, you never really saw him.

Fact is, he was enormously talented.  A gun for an arm.  Accurate.  Not pretty when he ran, but very effective.  The greatest college QB in history at the time he graduated. H-Man. No 1 pick. And ROY with NE.  A triple that I dont believe had been done up to that point. By the time he left NE he was shell shocked.  I will never forget reading a quote from a long time NFL exec who said Plunkett got beaten up more badly than any QB he’d seen.  Ever.  I hated Chuck Fairbanks.  What he did to Plunkett was damn near criminal. 

Plunkett showed what he can do when he led the Raiders to two SB Championships with about 50% of his skill set available.  Think of what he could have achieved had he started his career on a quality team. 

So, yes.  Circumstances always matter.

Another great post, Lex, you're on a roll!
What the Colts' brain trust did to Andrew Luck (trading #1 pick for a freaking used up RB?!? instead of protecting franchise player/asset?!?) was almost as bad as what the Pats did to Plunkett.  With even decent management (as opposed to incompetent), Luck would still be playing and contending for Super Bowls.  Damn shame.