[yvonne]

The northwest schools and the new kids on the block all wanted access to California recruiting. Now, they will get access to Texas, which seems like a good deal, so an East-West split is possible.

Playing the seven in-division games, two or three games in the opposite division, and two or three games out of conference would make for very attractive schedules.

[yvonne]

The northwest schools and the new kids on the block all wanted access to California recruiting. Now, they will get access to Texas, which seems like a good deal, so an East-West split is possible.

Playing the seven in-division games, two or three games in the opposite division, and two or three games out of conference would make for very attractive schedules.

[oman]

Wow, stuff is really getting crazy. 

[oman]

Wow, stuff is really getting crazy. 

[Kathy]

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/...elays-move

[Kathy]

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/...elays-move

[oman]

"We are being held hostage right now," [A&M President]Loftin said of being forced to stay in the Big 12. "Essentially, we're being told that you must stay here against your will and we think that really flies in the face of what makes us Americans for example and makes us free people."

Unfortunately, Baylor Law School puts out a bunch of good trial lawyers, and filing lawsuits is what makes them feel like free people.

[oman]

"We are being held hostage right now," [A&M President]Loftin said of being forced to stay in the Big 12. "Essentially, we're being told that you must stay here against your will and we think that really flies in the face of what makes us Americans for example and makes us free people."

Unfortunately, Baylor Law School puts out a bunch of good trial lawyers, and filing lawsuits is what makes them feel like free people.

[fullmetal]

I'm not crying for Loftin.  "Hostage," un-American, and anti-liberty--boohoo :p

Colorado, by the way, picked up a transfer QB from Texas: Connor Wood.  He was buried on the depth chart and originally had Texas, Oklahoma, and Stanford on his radar.  Looks like the Pac-12 scene next year might see Colorado improve.

"I contacted them knowing Coach Kennedy was here,'' said Wood, whose original top three choices were Texas, Oklahoma and Stanford.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/fo...index.html

By the way, it's not just Baylor holding up the stagecoach.

That one institution was Baylor and speculation mounts that they have also enlisted Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, and either Missouri or Texas Tech.

Texas Tech President Guy Bailey in a text message confirmed that the university’s board of regents would have to waive the school’s right to pursue legal action. He also said Big 12 members were planning a conference call sometime Wednesday.

http://barkingcarnival.fantake.com/2011/...oor-on-am/

[fullmetal]

I'm not crying for Loftin.  "Hostage," un-American, and anti-liberty--boohoo :p

Colorado, by the way, picked up a transfer QB from Texas: Connor Wood.  He was buried on the depth chart and originally had Texas, Oklahoma, and Stanford on his radar.  Looks like the Pac-12 scene next year might see Colorado improve.

"I contacted them knowing Coach Kennedy was here,'' said Wood, whose original top three choices were Texas, Oklahoma and Stanford.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/fo...index.html

By the way, it's not just Baylor holding up the stagecoach.

That one institution was Baylor and speculation mounts that they have also enlisted Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, and either Missouri or Texas Tech.

Texas Tech President Guy Bailey in a text message confirmed that the university’s board of regents would have to waive the school’s right to pursue legal action. He also said Big 12 members were planning a conference call sometime Wednesday.

http://barkingcarnival.fantake.com/2011/...oor-on-am/

[mark3k]

You're absolutely right, Fullmetal.  Too often, people who have no idea what the Declaration of Independence and Constitution actually say drop such platitudes when they run out of facts that might actually substantiate their arguments.  There is no nationally ordained "right" to "Freedom of Conference Alignment".  While I would certainly hope that most people in the worlds of business, academics, and even some areas of government can negotiate with one another fairly and with integrity, these conference have written agreements that they can either fulfill, or compensate their counterparties sufficiently to extract themselves from them.  If you don't like the terms of your agreement (or mortgage, etc.), don't sign it in the first place!  Funny how these people never seemed to complain when those agreements (or mortgages) helped them make more money than they otherwise might!?!

[mark3k]

You're absolutely right, Fullmetal.  Too often, people who have no idea what the Declaration of Independence and Constitution actually say drop such platitudes when they run out of facts that might actually substantiate their arguments.  There is no nationally ordained "right" to "Freedom of Conference Alignment".  While I would certainly hope that most people in the worlds of business, academics, and even some areas of government can negotiate with one another fairly and with integrity, these conference have written agreements that they can either fulfill, or compensate their counterparties sufficiently to extract themselves from them.  If you don't like the terms of your agreement (or mortgage, etc.), don't sign it in the first place!  Funny how these people never seemed to complain when those agreements (or mortgages) helped them make more money than they otherwise might!?!

[Kathy]

The issue is still money ... and there is a lot of money at stake here.

Later, though, after a conference call between Big 12 campus leaders, the Waco Tribune-Herald reported that Baylor was one of six Big 12 schools that decided not to waive its rights to seek legal action should Texas A&M join the SEC — unless, the newspaper reported, Oklahoma agreed to stay in the Big 12 and not leave for the Pac-12. If Oklahoma pledged its commitment to the Big 12, the six schools would reportedly agree to waive their legal claims. Joining Baylor, the Tribune-Herald reported, were Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri and Texas Tech.

That came as news to Oklahoma. “I haven’t heard anything about this ‘group of 6,’ ” a school official told The Oklahoman newspaper.

When asked yesterday afternoon if Missouri had waived its rights to sue, MU spokesman Mary Jo Banken declined comment. Last night, ESPN reported that eight of the nine Big 12 schools — all but Oklahoma — refused to waive their rights.

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2011...tigerextra

[Kathy]

The issue is still money ... and there is a lot of money at stake here.

Later, though, after a conference call between Big 12 campus leaders, the Waco Tribune-Herald reported that Baylor was one of six Big 12 schools that decided not to waive its rights to seek legal action should Texas A&M join the SEC — unless, the newspaper reported, Oklahoma agreed to stay in the Big 12 and not leave for the Pac-12. If Oklahoma pledged its commitment to the Big 12, the six schools would reportedly agree to waive their legal claims. Joining Baylor, the Tribune-Herald reported, were Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri and Texas Tech.

That came as news to Oklahoma. “I haven’t heard anything about this ‘group of 6,’ ” a school official told The Oklahoman newspaper.

When asked yesterday afternoon if Missouri had waived its rights to sue, MU spokesman Mary Jo Banken declined comment. Last night, ESPN reported that eight of the nine Big 12 schools — all but Oklahoma — refused to waive their rights.

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2011...tigerextra

[mark3k]

No question... you just can't have only one side of an existing contractual arrangement "agree" with respect to how much money they should get, and then call the other side (who clearly believes they "deserve" more) un-American hostage-takers for pursuing their own interests while abiding by the terms of the contract (not that I'm accusing you of that, Kathy).

[mark3k]

No question... you just can't have only one side of an existing contractual arrangement "agree" with respect to how much money they should get, and then call the other side (who clearly believes they "deserve" more) un-American hostage-takers for pursuing their own interests while abiding by the terms of the contract (not that I'm accusing you of that, Kathy).

[oman]

You're absolutely right, Fullmetal.  Too often, people who have no idea what the Declaration of Independence and Constitution actually say drop such platitudes when they run out of facts that might actually substantiate their arguments.  There is no nationally ordained "right" to "Freedom of Conference Alignment". 

Well, he didn't say that.  He just said Baylor trying to get in their way is un-american.

It's a dumb/aggie thing to say but he's not really making a Constitutional argument.

I actually will feel bad for the Ags if this falls through.  For a bit.  And then it will just be another brick to add to the the wacky paranoid foundation that keeps that cult going.




I do wish the whole super conference thing would just die.

[oman]

You're absolutely right, Fullmetal.  Too often, people who have no idea what the Declaration of Independence and Constitution actually say drop such platitudes when they run out of facts that might actually substantiate their arguments.  There is no nationally ordained "right" to "Freedom of Conference Alignment". 

Well, he didn't say that.  He just said Baylor trying to get in their way is un-american.

It's a dumb/aggie thing to say but he's not really making a Constitutional argument.

I actually will feel bad for the Ags if this falls through.  For a bit.  And then it will just be another brick to add to the the wacky paranoid foundation that keeps that cult going.




I do wish the whole super conference thing would just die.

[fullmetal]

Au contraire, Mr. Aggie--full exploitation of the legal system is quite American (and sometimes unfortunately so).

Ah well!

[fullmetal]

Au contraire, Mr. Aggie--full exploitation of the legal system is quite American (and sometimes unfortunately so).

Ah well!

[oman]

They want to go, let them go.  BYU would be a perfectly fine holding pattern replacement for A&M if the Big9 could swing it.

But with OSU's dismantling of Arizona tonight, the Big12 is looking pretty strong this year anyway.  It would be nice if giving  A&M a peace offering would be enough to get them back. 

[oman]

They want to go, let them go.  BYU would be a perfectly fine holding pattern replacement for A&M if the Big9 could swing it.

But with OSU's dismantling of Arizona tonight, the Big12 is looking pretty strong this year anyway.  It would be nice if giving  A&M a peace offering would be enough to get them back. 

[mark3k]

[quote author=2loyal link=topic=4410.msg31419#msg31419 date=1315514648]
You're absolutely right, Fullmetal.  Too often, people who have no idea what the Declaration of Independence and Constitution actually say drop such platitudes when they run out of facts that might actually substantiate their arguments.  There is no nationally ordained "right" to "Freedom of Conference Alignment". 

Well, he didn't say that.  He just said Baylor trying to get in their way is un-american. (sic)[/quote]

Of course he didn't specifically reference the Constitution itself, but the un-American comments clearly imply that they have some "right" to defect, because they now believe that they can get a better deal elsewhere (while Baylor sure seems to believe that their are provisions in their contract that say otherwise... and if Baylor didn't have a point, A&M would just ignore the complaint an move on). 

My broader point, if you read it again, was to the fact that I frequently hear other whiners-without-credible-arguments default to this claim of certain American "rights" that don't actually exist in our Constitution, etc. (e.g., the "right" to squat in a home for which you never made any material payments, simply because some bank was stupid enough to lend you the money with which to buy it a few years ago... often because they were stupid enough to believe your misrepresentations about your income, etc., which you signed "under penalty of perjury" -- of course, I'm not referencing you personally in that example, Oman).

[mark3k]

[quote author=2loyal link=topic=4410.msg31419#msg31419 date=1315514648]
You're absolutely right, Fullmetal.  Too often, people who have no idea what the Declaration of Independence and Constitution actually say drop such platitudes when they run out of facts that might actually substantiate their arguments.  There is no nationally ordained "right" to "Freedom of Conference Alignment". 

Well, he didn't say that.  He just said Baylor trying to get in their way is un-american. (sic)[/quote]

Of course he didn't specifically reference the Constitution itself, but the un-American comments clearly imply that they have some "right" to defect, because they now believe that they can get a better deal elsewhere (while Baylor sure seems to believe that their are provisions in their contract that say otherwise... and if Baylor didn't have a point, A&M would just ignore the complaint an move on). 

My broader point, if you read it again, was to the fact that I frequently hear other whiners-without-credible-arguments default to this claim of certain American "rights" that don't actually exist in our Constitution, etc. (e.g., the "right" to squat in a home for which you never made any material payments, simply because some bank was stupid enough to lend you the money with which to buy it a few years ago... often because they were stupid enough to believe your misrepresentations about your income, etc., which you signed "under penalty of perjury" -- of course, I'm not referencing you personally in that example, Oman).

[oman]

Of course he didn't specifically reference the Constitution itself, but the un-American comments clearly imply that they have some "right" to defect...

Believe me, it is a pet peeve of mine, usually when people make overbroad "freeedom of speech" arguments.  But he didn't refer to "rights".

If I argue that diving in soccer, or celebrating Kwanzaa, or drinking white wine instead of beer, or stopping someone from going to the SEC because of a silly contract is un-American, then I'm not really making an argument about rights -- I am kind of more referring to just all the stuff that goes into stopping things that corrupt our precious bodily fluids. 

But in reality, most aggies, and well, pretty much most Texans, won't see any difference in that, so in the end I guess your on to something.....

[oman]

Of course he didn't specifically reference the Constitution itself, but the un-American comments clearly imply that they have some "right" to defect...

Believe me, it is a pet peeve of mine, usually when people make overbroad "freeedom of speech" arguments.  But he didn't refer to "rights".

If I argue that diving in soccer, or celebrating Kwanzaa, or drinking white wine instead of beer, or stopping someone from going to the SEC because of a silly contract is un-American, then I'm not really making an argument about rights -- I am kind of more referring to just all the stuff that goes into stopping things that corrupt our precious bodily fluids. 

But in reality, most aggies, and well, pretty much most Texans, won't see any difference in that, so in the end I guess your on to something.....

[Kathy]

2loyal ~ I love the Aggies (heck, I'm married to one), but A&M is only third on my priority list, so I didn't take any offense. My #2 school is Mizzou and I see their point (and those of the other Big 12 schools) more clearly. A&M signed a contract last summer to keep the Big 12 together and I don't think they should be allowed to break it (to the detriment of the other conference schools) without suffering some kind of financial penalty. Where I agree with A&M -- and view the current system with alarm -- is the position the t-sips have carved out of the conference. I don't see Oklahoma staying, and if OU goes, several more will follow.


Actually, the Big 12 is quite strong in football. The conference sent eight of 12 teams to bowl games last season and is tied with the SEC for most BCS NC appearances (seven). I think it would be a shame if the conference broke up and the schools scattered into other super-conferences. I liked it better when there were 8 teams in a conference (Pac-8, Big 8, etc.) and everyone played everyone else every year. But TV and big money killed that idyllic arrangement.

Garvin ~ According to the Big 12, the waiver the conference granted to the SEC conference "did not and could not bind the individual member institutions' governing boards to waive institutional rights." Apparently, it was just a promise that the Big 12 Conference wouldn't sue.

It all sounds very American to me.

[Kathy]

2loyal ~ I love the Aggies (heck, I'm married to one), but A&M is only third on my priority list, so I didn't take any offense. My #2 school is Mizzou and I see their point (and those of the other Big 12 schools) more clearly. A&M signed a contract last summer to keep the Big 12 together and I don't think they should be allowed to break it (to the detriment of the other conference schools) without suffering some kind of financial penalty. Where I agree with A&M -- and view the current system with alarm -- is the position the t-sips have carved out of the conference. I don't see Oklahoma staying, and if OU goes, several more will follow.


Actually, the Big 12 is quite strong in football. The conference sent eight of 12 teams to bowl games last season and is tied with the SEC for most BCS NC appearances (seven). I think it would be a shame if the conference broke up and the schools scattered into other super-conferences. I liked it better when there were 8 teams in a conference (Pac-8, Big 8, etc.) and everyone played everyone else every year. But TV and big money killed that idyllic arrangement.

Garvin ~ According to the Big 12, the waiver the conference granted to the SEC conference "did not and could not bind the individual member institutions' governing boards to waive institutional rights." Apparently, it was just a promise that the Big 12 Conference wouldn't sue.

It all sounds very American to me.

[Pastor]

Because the coalition of the unwilling is never a happy experience.

[Pastor]

Because the coalition of the unwilling is never a happy experience.

[oman]

Because the coalition of the unwilling is never a happy experience.

I think this is the obvious answer and why A&M will eventually go away without much of a hitch.  The interesting thing is how it looks like the remaining Big12 schools seem to be enjoying yanking the Aggies' chain as they make their way out the door.

Nebraska and Colorado -- eh, those guys were Big12 North.  They didn't count.  The Aggies were blood relatives, and all the Big12 South teams are going to get a bit of last round satisfaction out of the twisting that the Ags are going through right now.

With the Aggies looking like a strong team, they may not be able to get much satisfaction on the field.

[oman]

Because the coalition of the unwilling is never a happy experience.

I think this is the obvious answer and why A&M will eventually go away without much of a hitch.  The interesting thing is how it looks like the remaining Big12 schools seem to be enjoying yanking the Aggies' chain as they make their way out the door.

Nebraska and Colorado -- eh, those guys were Big12 North.  They didn't count.  The Aggies were blood relatives, and all the Big12 South teams are going to get a bit of last round satisfaction out of the twisting that the Ags are going through right now.

With the Aggies looking like a strong team, they may not be able to get much satisfaction on the field.

[oman]

I disagree, Oman. I think some of these schools -- Baylor in particular -- are terrified of being left orphaned by a collapse of the Big 12 and being left scratching at the door of the WAC or someplace similar. This may get ugly.

Agree.  I just don't think there is a lot you can do in the end other than buying a bit of time.

Personally, I would really love a local Texas conference here made up of TCU, SMU, Houston, Texas State, UTSA, U of North Texas, Baylor, UTEP.  But four of those don't want to be at a club that would have them as members.

[oman]

I disagree, Oman. I think some of these schools -- Baylor in particular -- are terrified of being left orphaned by a collapse of the Big 12 and being left scratching at the door of the WAC or someplace similar. This may get ugly.

Agree.  I just don't think there is a lot you can do in the end other than buying a bit of time.

Personally, I would really love a local Texas conference here made up of TCU, SMU, Houston, Texas State, UTSA, U of North Texas, Baylor, UTEP.  But four of those don't want to be at a club that would have them as members.

[Leftcoast]

Texas officials met with Oklahoma officials in Norman this past weekend in an attempt to get Oklahoma to back down from plans to leave the Big 12 for the Pac 12.  The meeting included both university presidents and both athletic directors.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/...cials-meet

Interesting points:

1)  The meeting was IN NORMAN and included the UT President.  Reading the tea leaves Texas is feeling pressured by the Oklahoma moves and, for once, is reacting to a Big 12 partner move as opposed to making their own waves and waiting for the Big 12 to come to them.  No mention of the Big 12 commissioner participating.

2)  Oklahoma is interested in delaying their Pac 12 approach per this story if they see hope of Texas joining them in the move and preserving the Red River rivalry.  (This is counter Bob Stoops public statement that the rivalry wasn't "necessary".) 

3)  It appears all parties - Texas, Oklahoma, even the SEC (who announced they are drawing up plans for a 13 team schedule for 2012) is assuming that Texas A&M will eventually move to the SEC in time for 2012.

Takeaways?  The Big 12 as we know it is circling the drain and Texas is frantic to save it.  ESPN can't be happy about potentially losing the two remaining appointment TV rivalry games on the Texas schedule - and replacing them with what?  Texas v SMU?  Texas v Houston?  The Bob Stoops remarks in particular seem aimed at pointing out how a collapsed Big 12 could make Texas less attractive to a national audience.    I wonder if their contract with ESPN has an out clause if the Big 12 falls apart? 

If Texas must join the Pac 12 I hope we get a chastened Longhorn nation with new understanding of the benefits of conference membership and a partner that isn't looking for a new venue in which to seek world domination (or at least the NCAA portion of it!) 

Regardless, the contracts better be iron-clad because the SWC/Big 8/Big 12 history shows these guys aren't interested in any partner's welfare.

I'm still hoping for a Big 12 revival even as the whole conference looks flatline on the organizational ECG.  Am I alone in worrying Texas would be poison for the Pac 12?

[Leftcoast]

Texas officials met with Oklahoma officials in Norman this past weekend in an attempt to get Oklahoma to back down from plans to leave the Big 12 for the Pac 12.  The meeting included both university presidents and both athletic directors.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/...cials-meet

Interesting points:

1)  The meeting was IN NORMAN and included the UT President.  Reading the tea leaves Texas is feeling pressured by the Oklahoma moves and, for once, is reacting to a Big 12 partner move as opposed to making their own waves and waiting for the Big 12 to come to them.  No mention of the Big 12 commissioner participating.

2)  Oklahoma is interested in delaying their Pac 12 approach per this story if they see hope of Texas joining them in the move and preserving the Red River rivalry.  (This is counter Bob Stoops public statement that the rivalry wasn't "necessary".) 

3)  It appears all parties - Texas, Oklahoma, even the SEC (who announced they are drawing up plans for a 13 team schedule for 2012) is assuming that Texas A&M will eventually move to the SEC in time for 2012.

Takeaways?  The Big 12 as we know it is circling the drain and Texas is frantic to save it.  ESPN can't be happy about potentially losing the two remaining appointment TV rivalry games on the Texas schedule - and replacing them with what?  Texas v SMU?  Texas v Houston?  The Bob Stoops remarks in particular seem aimed at pointing out how a collapsed Big 12 could make Texas less attractive to a national audience.    I wonder if their contract with ESPN has an out clause if the Big 12 falls apart? 

If Texas must join the Pac 12 I hope we get a chastened Longhorn nation with new understanding of the benefits of conference membership and a partner that isn't looking for a new venue in which to seek world domination (or at least the NCAA portion of it!) 

Regardless, the contracts better be iron-clad because the SWC/Big 8/Big 12 history shows these guys aren't interested in any partner's welfare.

I'm still hoping for a Big 12 revival even as the whole conference looks flatline on the organizational ECG.  Am I alone in worrying Texas would be poison for the Pac 12?

[fullmetal]

I don't think the Texas/Oklahoma addition fits the culture of the Pac-12 at all, and while it wouldn't kill the Pac-12, it'll certainly water it down.

That Longhorn Network sure was worth it.

[fullmetal]

I don't think the Texas/Oklahoma addition fits the culture of the Pac-12 at all, and while it wouldn't kill the Pac-12, it'll certainly water it down.

That Longhorn Network sure was worth it.

[Kathy]

If Texas must join the Pac 12 I hope we get a chastened Longhorn nation with new understanding of the benefits of conference membership and a partner that isn't looking for a new venue in which to seek world domination (or at least the NCAA portion of it!)

Good luck with that!  ::)

[Kathy]

If Texas must join the Pac 12 I hope we get a chastened Longhorn nation with new understanding of the benefits of conference membership and a partner that isn't looking for a new venue in which to seek world domination (or at least the NCAA portion of it!)

Good luck with that!  ::)