[BostonCard]

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/10/13/fo...arterback/

Through 5 games, Colts linemen have allowed 32 QB hits, 71 if you add up each individual player – which is good for second-most in the NFL. Change was necessary when Luck took 11 hits in the Colts’ 20-7 Week 2 loss against the New York Jets’ ferocious defensive front.

BC

[BostonCard]

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/10/13/fo...arterback/

Through 5 games, Colts linemen have allowed 32 QB hits, 71 if you add up each individual player – which is good for second-most in the NFL. Change was necessary when Luck took 11 hits in the Colts’ 20-7 Week 2 loss against the New York Jets’ ferocious defensive front.

BC

[Hank 91]

So disheartening. Everything we know about Andrew tells us that he'll just take these beatings without saying a word, but I wonder if he has it in him to march upstairs and demand some offensive linemen.

[Hank 91]

So disheartening. Everything we know about Andrew tells us that he'll just take these beatings without saying a word, but I wonder if he has it in him to march upstairs and demand some offensive linemen.

[amartinsu13]

So disheartening. Everything we know about Andrew tells us that he'll just take these beatings without saying a word, but I wonder if he has it in him to march upstairs and demand some offensive linemen.

He's probably smart enough to know that he doesn't need to tell his bosses something they already know.

[amartinsu13]

So disheartening. Everything we know about Andrew tells us that he'll just take these beatings without saying a word, but I wonder if he has it in him to march upstairs and demand some offensive linemen.

He's probably smart enough to know that he doesn't need to tell his bosses something they already know.

[winflop]

So disheartening. Everything we know about Andrew tells us that he'll just take these beatings without saying a word, but I wonder if he has it in him to march upstairs and demand some offensive linemen.

The problem isn't just this season, it's been all three seasons.  That tells me that management may NOT be entirely aware of the issue.  He needs to tell Irsay that if he doesn't draft OL in the first round AND get a quality OL free agent, next year will be his last in Indy.

[winflop]

So disheartening. Everything we know about Andrew tells us that he'll just take these beatings without saying a word, but I wonder if he has it in him to march upstairs and demand some offensive linemen.

The problem isn't just this season, it's been all three seasons.  That tells me that management may NOT be entirely aware of the issue.  He needs to tell Irsay that if he doesn't draft OL in the first round AND get a quality OL free agent, next year will be his last in Indy.

[Mick]

[quote author=Hank 91 link=topic=13163.msg134509#msg134509 date=1444800621]
So disheartening. Everything we know about Andrew tells us that he'll just take these beatings without saying a word, but I wonder if he has it in him to march upstairs and demand some offensive linemen.

The problem isn't just this season, it's been all three seasons.  That tells me that management may NOT be entirely aware of the issue.  He needs to tell Irsay that if he doesn't draft OL in the first round AND get a quality OL free agent, next year will be his last in Indy.
[/quote]

I remember how badly Plunkett was beat up when he was with the New England Patriots.  He led the league in yardage lost due to sacks his second year in.  Very difficult to swallow.

[Mick]

[quote author=Hank 91 link=topic=13163.msg134509#msg134509 date=1444800621]
So disheartening. Everything we know about Andrew tells us that he'll just take these beatings without saying a word, but I wonder if he has it in him to march upstairs and demand some offensive linemen.

The problem isn't just this season, it's been all three seasons.  That tells me that management may NOT be entirely aware of the issue.  He needs to tell Irsay that if he doesn't draft OL in the first round AND get a quality OL free agent, next year will be his last in Indy.
[/quote]

I remember how badly Plunkett was beat up when he was with the New England Patriots.  He led the league in yardage lost due to sacks his second year in.  Very difficult to swallow.

[Redrum]

[quote author=Hank 91 link=topic=13163.msg134509#msg134509 date=1444800621]
So disheartening. Everything we know about Andrew tells us that he'll just take these beatings without saying a word, but I wonder if he has it in him to march upstairs and demand some offensive linemen.

He's probably smart enough to know that he doesn't need to tell his bosses something they already know.
[/quote]

The problem goes beyond what they "know". The beating is there to see all the way from their skybox every Sunday.  It's whether they are willing to ACT.  It's $$$.  The real disheartening theory is they have already accepted that Luck will leave for a bigger paycheck and better protection when his contract is up...so why not save the money and hope he stays healthy enough in meantime? 

[Redrum]

[quote author=Hank 91 link=topic=13163.msg134509#msg134509 date=1444800621]
So disheartening. Everything we know about Andrew tells us that he'll just take these beatings without saying a word, but I wonder if he has it in him to march upstairs and demand some offensive linemen.

He's probably smart enough to know that he doesn't need to tell his bosses something they already know.
[/quote]

The problem goes beyond what they "know". The beating is there to see all the way from their skybox every Sunday.  It's whether they are willing to ACT.  It's $$$.  The real disheartening theory is they have already accepted that Luck will leave for a bigger paycheck and better protection when his contract is up...so why not save the money and hope he stays healthy enough in meantime? 

[stupac2]

Didn't the Colts actually try to bring in more OL? IIRC they signed a couple free agents. I think the problem is more that they're shitty evaluators of talent and the coaching staff sucks at adapting. The OL moves haven't worked, so stop trying to be a run-first, downfield-throwing team. Look at what NE is doing, or even the Giants with Eli. Just have Luck diagnose before the snap, then throw off a 3-step drop. Once the DL is gassed start going deep. Maybe, for some reason, their guys can't do this, but I have a really hard time believing that.

[stupac2]

Didn't the Colts actually try to bring in more OL? IIRC they signed a couple free agents. I think the problem is more that they're shitty evaluators of talent and the coaching staff sucks at adapting. The OL moves haven't worked, so stop trying to be a run-first, downfield-throwing team. Look at what NE is doing, or even the Giants with Eli. Just have Luck diagnose before the snap, then throw off a 3-step drop. Once the DL is gassed start going deep. Maybe, for some reason, their guys can't do this, but I have a really hard time believing that.

[82lsju]

The problem isn't just this season, it's been all three seasons.  That tells me that management may NOT be entirely aware of the issue.  He needs to tell Irsay that if he doesn't draft OL in the first round AND get a quality OL free agent, next year will be his last in Indy.

only if he wants to retire as they can use the franchise tag and keep him, the third time they would use it would get really expensive

[82lsju]

The problem isn't just this season, it's been all three seasons.  That tells me that management may NOT be entirely aware of the issue.  He needs to tell Irsay that if he doesn't draft OL in the first round AND get a quality OL free agent, next year will be his last in Indy.

only if he wants to retire as they can use the franchise tag and keep him, the third time they would use it would get really expensive

[FarmBoy]

Hopefully this recent injury will make Luck a tougher negotiator with the COlts in what they need to do to keep him. How is it that the Cowboys are able to field the best OLine in the league, pay top dollar for QB and have a top shelf WR and TE to boot? And on the other side of the ball, their D is better than Indy's at least. But the Colts are paying chicken scratch for Luck, have a shit'ty defense, crappy OLine and many of their offensive weapons are past their prime?

I would love to see him force the Colts hand on a trade, but that could get ugly. And any team he moves to will be pillaged in the process.

[FarmBoy]

Hopefully this recent injury will make Luck a tougher negotiator with the COlts in what they need to do to keep him. How is it that the Cowboys are able to field the best OLine in the league, pay top dollar for QB and have a top shelf WR and TE to boot? And on the other side of the ball, their D is better than Indy's at least. But the Colts are paying chicken scratch for Luck, have a shit'ty defense, crappy OLine and many of their offensive weapons are past their prime?

I would love to see him force the Colts hand on a trade, but that could get ugly. And any team he moves to will be pillaged in the process.

[Redrum]

Didn't the Colts actually try to bring in more OL? IIRC they signed a couple free agents. I think the problem is more that they're shitty evaluators of talent and the coaching staff sucks at adapting. The OL moves haven't worked, so stop trying to be a run-first, downfield-throwing team. Look at what NE is doing, or even the Giants with Eli. Just have Luck diagnose before the snap, then throw off a 3-step drop. Once the DL is gassed start going deep. Maybe, for some reason, their guys can't do this, but I have a really hard time believing that.

I can accept that theory.  That just stretches the Discombobulation Zone from the Management offices down to the coaching offices. One size fits all.  I guess there is a distinguishable distinction between failure to act and failure to act effectively.  Whatever, the owners still get paid, the coaches still get paid and the players get paid. Hardly any incentive to do what needs to be done, regardless of where the organization is bumbling.  And Andrew still gets to join the Great QBs Who Never Won the Big One club.  Just thinking about that makes my brain hurt.

[Redrum]

Didn't the Colts actually try to bring in more OL? IIRC they signed a couple free agents. I think the problem is more that they're shitty evaluators of talent and the coaching staff sucks at adapting. The OL moves haven't worked, so stop trying to be a run-first, downfield-throwing team. Look at what NE is doing, or even the Giants with Eli. Just have Luck diagnose before the snap, then throw off a 3-step drop. Once the DL is gassed start going deep. Maybe, for some reason, their guys can't do this, but I have a really hard time believing that.

I can accept that theory.  That just stretches the Discombobulation Zone from the Management offices down to the coaching offices. One size fits all.  I guess there is a distinguishable distinction between failure to act and failure to act effectively.  Whatever, the owners still get paid, the coaches still get paid and the players get paid. Hardly any incentive to do what needs to be done, regardless of where the organization is bumbling.  And Andrew still gets to join the Great QBs Who Never Won the Big One club.  Just thinking about that makes my brain hurt.

[CrazedZooChimp]

Hopefully this recent injury will make Luck a tougher negotiator with the COlts in what they need to do to keep him. How is it that the Cowboys are able to field the best OLine in the league, pay top dollar for QB and have a top shelf WR and TE to boot? And on the other side of the ball, their D is better than Indy's at least. But the Colts are paying chicken scratch for Luck, have a stuff'ty defense, crappy OLine and many of their offensive weapons are past their prime?

The Cowboys sound awfully good for a 2-3 team in a terrible division that made the playoffs for the first time in this decade last year.  And their QB keeps getting hurt.  Are you sure that's the right team to compare against?

[CrazedZooChimp]

Hopefully this recent injury will make Luck a tougher negotiator with the COlts in what they need to do to keep him. How is it that the Cowboys are able to field the best OLine in the league, pay top dollar for QB and have a top shelf WR and TE to boot? And on the other side of the ball, their D is better than Indy's at least. But the Colts are paying chicken scratch for Luck, have a stuff'ty defense, crappy OLine and many of their offensive weapons are past their prime?

The Cowboys sound awfully good for a 2-3 team in a terrible division that made the playoffs for the first time in this decade last year.  And their QB keeps getting hurt.  Are you sure that's the right team to compare against?

[CornFed]

"Hardly any incentive to do what needs to be done, regardless of where the organization is bumbling"
  Redrum

Well, you then gotta wonder why on earth did they get into this business, right?  Just to make the big bucks?  Given the ever-rising valuations of NFL franchises, I guess that may be it.  But they had megabucks before they got into this line of business.  Maybe to be a big shot in their community and getting to be on TV?  That just can't be it.  Most of them go out of their way to avoid the limelight.  Being an incompetent owner just cannot be that satisfying an enterprise.  We've got our own in SF and he must have a truly powerful ego to take the pounding he is getting EVERYWHERE about the decline in the fortunes of the 49ers.

No, they may not realize it, but there are ample incentives.  The competitive angle alone should provide incentive to do their best.  The financial benefits of success are significantly higher than those of mediocrity.  Then there are the existential enhancements one can experience in the bond created through shared struggle and resulting exultation from victory.  There is the potential to affect sports history and then, maybe the most powerful incentive, the major contributions that a successful sports franchise can have on the neediest in the community.  All these aspects are made bigger and more powerful the more successful the team.

I figure that Irsay is powerfully incented.  He is simply incompetent in this area.  It should be noted that he has had stretches of success, so maybe that's enough for him.  As a general matter, the family has been buffoonish over the time they have owned the franchise.

[CornFed]

"Hardly any incentive to do what needs to be done, regardless of where the organization is bumbling"
  Redrum

Well, you then gotta wonder why on earth did they get into this business, right?  Just to make the big bucks?  Given the ever-rising valuations of NFL franchises, I guess that may be it.  But they had megabucks before they got into this line of business.  Maybe to be a big shot in their community and getting to be on TV?  That just can't be it.  Most of them go out of their way to avoid the limelight.  Being an incompetent owner just cannot be that satisfying an enterprise.  We've got our own in SF and he must have a truly powerful ego to take the pounding he is getting EVERYWHERE about the decline in the fortunes of the 49ers.

No, they may not realize it, but there are ample incentives.  The competitive angle alone should provide incentive to do their best.  The financial benefits of success are significantly higher than those of mediocrity.  Then there are the existential enhancements one can experience in the bond created through shared struggle and resulting exultation from victory.  There is the potential to affect sports history and then, maybe the most powerful incentive, the major contributions that a successful sports franchise can have on the neediest in the community.  All these aspects are made bigger and more powerful the more successful the team.

I figure that Irsay is powerfully incented.  He is simply incompetent in this area.  It should be noted that he has had stretches of success, so maybe that's enough for him.  As a general matter, the family has been buffoonish over the time they have owned the franchise.

[washingtonismoney]

I think Redrum underestimates the reputational incentives here. Who wants large segments of the population to think you're a bum? 99% of human beings have a strong aversion to this.

[washingtonismoney]

I think Redrum underestimates the reputational incentives here. Who wants large segments of the population to think you're a bum? 99% of human beings have a strong aversion to this.

[Redrum]

I think Redrum underestimates the reputational incentives here. Who wants large segments of the population to think you're a bum? 99% of human beings have a strong aversion to this.

All those incentives mating orthagonally with all those strong aversions...yet that didn't stop the 49ers management from shooting themselves in the foot and-- to be thorough-- in the crotch just for good measure. 

Nor, sadly, Steve Sarkisian.

[Redrum]

I think Redrum underestimates the reputational incentives here. Who wants large segments of the population to think you're a bum? 99% of human beings have a strong aversion to this.

All those incentives mating orthagonally with all those strong aversions...yet that didn't stop the 49ers management from shooting themselves in the foot and-- to be thorough-- in the crotch just for good measure. 

Nor, sadly, Steve Sarkisian.

[washingtonismoney]

[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=13163.msg134655#msg134655 date=1444875455]
I think Redrum underestimates the reputational incentives here. Who wants large segments of the population to think you're a bum? 99% of human beings have a strong aversion to this.

All those incentives mating orthagonally with all those strong aversions...yet that didn't stop the 49ers management from shooting themselves in the foot and-- to be thorough-- in the crotch just for good measure. 
[/quote]

Well, just because you have the incentive doesn't always ensure people do the right stuff. We've got pretty strong incentives to stop people from murdering, but people keep on ending up dead.

[washingtonismoney]

[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=13163.msg134655#msg134655 date=1444875455]
I think Redrum underestimates the reputational incentives here. Who wants large segments of the population to think you're a bum? 99% of human beings have a strong aversion to this.

All those incentives mating orthagonally with all those strong aversions...yet that didn't stop the 49ers management from shooting themselves in the foot and-- to be thorough-- in the crotch just for good measure. 
[/quote]

Well, just because you have the incentive doesn't always ensure people do the right stuff. We've got pretty strong incentives to stop people from murdering, but people keep on ending up dead.

[FarmBoy]

The Cowboys sound awfully good for a 2-3 team in a terrible division that made the playoffs for the first time in this decade last year.  And their QB keeps getting hurt.  Are you sure that's the right team to compare against?

Well, I never claimed that they had their high priced QB was particularly effective, especially when he's been injures the last couple of games they lost. And the fact that 2 of those 3 losses are against currently undefeated teams should probably be considered relevant context.

Still, I'm sure there are other/better examples of teams paying top dollar for their QBs (which the Colts are not) but still able to maintain a high quality roster around that QB include OLine, defense and skill position players. Perhaps the Packers and Broncos would be better examples?

[FarmBoy]

The Cowboys sound awfully good for a 2-3 team in a terrible division that made the playoffs for the first time in this decade last year.  And their QB keeps getting hurt.  Are you sure that's the right team to compare against?

Well, I never claimed that they had their high priced QB was particularly effective, especially when he's been injures the last couple of games they lost. And the fact that 2 of those 3 losses are against currently undefeated teams should probably be considered relevant context.

Still, I'm sure there are other/better examples of teams paying top dollar for their QBs (which the Colts are not) but still able to maintain a high quality roster around that QB include OLine, defense and skill position players. Perhaps the Packers and Broncos would be better examples?

[Nan3cy]

Can't help wishing Andrew had pulled an Elway and refused to play for an Irsay. Tho I guess Andrew didn't have the leverage of a baseball contract (maybe he could have wangled a soccer contract with someone??) to fall back on...

[Nan3cy]

Can't help wishing Andrew had pulled an Elway and refused to play for an Irsay. Tho I guess Andrew didn't have the leverage of a baseball contract (maybe he could have wangled a soccer contract with someone??) to fall back on...

[Jskass]

ok to take this another step -- which teams might be good candidates for him:  (1) need a QB, (2) have a strong OL and (3) would have Andrew's confidence that they have their act together enough to succeed? I don't know the NFL well enough to speculate here but am curious. The 49ers clearly need a better QB but who knows if (2) and (3) hold (even if they're willing to say bah-bye to DeKap).

[Jskass]

ok to take this another step -- which teams might be good candidates for him:  (1) need a QB, (2) have a strong OL and (3) would have Andrew's confidence that they have their act together enough to succeed? I don't know the NFL well enough to speculate here but am curious. The 49ers clearly need a better QB but who knows if (2) and (3) hold (even if they're willing to say bah-bye to DeKap).

[CornFed]

Can't help wishing Andrew had pulled an Elway and refused to play for an Irsay. Tho I guess Andrew didn't have the leverage of a baseball contract (maybe he could have wangled a soccer contract with someone??) to fall back on...

He could have leveraged his architectural career!


[Only one more to go!]

[CornFed]

Can't help wishing Andrew had pulled an Elway and refused to play for an Irsay. Tho I guess Andrew didn't have the leverage of a baseball contract (maybe he could have wangled a soccer contract with someone??) to fall back on...

He could have leveraged his architectural career!


[Only one more to go!]

[TreesAndBirds]

Denver would be interesting. Replace Manning again. Good team. Work with Elway. OL needs work but have to figure Elway understands OL importance.

[TreesAndBirds]

Denver would be interesting. Replace Manning again. Good team. Work with Elway. OL needs work but have to figure Elway understands OL importance.