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Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - Printable Version

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Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - fullmetal - 06-11-2015

Very nearly something we all knew already.


Quote:"I think we recognized that all of my football players are at-risk -- all of them -- really," Kelly told Notre Dame Insider. "Honestly, I don't know that any of our players would get into the school by themselves right now with the academic standards the way they are. Maybe one or two of our players that are on scholarship.


http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/13059375/brian-kelly-notre-dame-fighting-irish-says-all-players-risk-academically

Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - Farm93 - 06-11-2015

Saw this earlier and thought that this must be similar to what someone at UNC likely said privately several years ago.


They are at-risk.  They can't really be expected to perform academically given the time it takes to win in team sports.  The university needs to help rather than let the kids cut corners on their own. etc. etc.


If Kelly's comments were said in a private meeting on campus I would have thought he was looking for the school to find a way, any way, to keep the players eligible.


The pressure on Notre Dame to keep that team competitive must be unbelievable.
Also great to know the ND solution is to find systematic ways to help rather than actually raise the academic standards.

Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - winflop - 06-12-2015

(06-11-2015, 08:04 PM)Farm93 link Wrote:They can't really be expected to perform academically given the time it takes to win in team sports.


I don't think that's what he means.  What Kelly means is that he doesn't think his players are worthy of admission outside of their athletic prowess and that as a result they struggle in the classroom.


This was along the lines of Robin Mamlet's mentality when she was Stanford Director of Admissions, and her devaluation of athletic success as part of the overall application was a MAJOR contributor to the downward trajectory of many sports in the early 2000s - not just football.

Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - Farm93 - 06-12-2015

(06-12-2015, 06:04 AM)winflop link Wrote:[quote author=Farm93 link=topic=12255.msg120529#msg120529 date=1434078250]
They can't really be expected to perform academically given the time it takes to win in team sports.


I don't think that's what he means.  What Kelly means is that he doesn't think his players are worthy of admission outside of their athletic prowess and that as a result they struggle in the classroom.


This was along the lines of Robin Mamlet's mentality when she was Stanford Director of Admissions, and her devaluation of athletic success as part of the overall application was a MAJOR contributor to the downward trajectory of many sports in the early 2000s - not just football.
[/quote]
Well he was trying to imply multiple whammies really.  The kids are probably the least qualified academically.  And that would be hard enough, but on top of that they are expected to spend a significant portion of their time and energy playing sports.  And then ND Football also requires significant travel and media time too.  It is the combination that makes it almost impossible for them to stay eligible.  As he noted he has quite a few that are not surviving academically.  That real threat of ineligibility creates an incentive for them to cut corners academically on their own (see Golson).

I found interesting that the solution, implied admittedly, was for the University to institutionalize more corner cutting rather than for the coaches and to recognize that they need to find better STUDENT-athletes more likely to survive without changing the academic quality.

Almost seemed like he was saying, "Give me a bunch of easy classes without tests or papers for these kids, so that they can stay eligible without needing to cheat on tests or papers."


Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - Bruce Wang - 06-12-2015

The Stanford football renaissance is a contributing factor here.  A decent number of our players in recent years might have ended up at Notre Dame otherwise.

Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - winflop - 06-13-2015

Somebody needs to call Brian Kelly a waaaambulance

Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - JohnR34231 - 06-13-2015

I agree that Kelly is a bit of a whiner. Just about every football coach faces a similar situation that he has to deal with.

Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - winflop - 06-13-2015

(06-13-2015, 05:04 AM)JPRI link Wrote:I agree that Kelly is a bit of a whiner. Just about every football coach faces a similar situation that he has to deal with.


True but they don't complain like this.  Kelly seems to simultaneously be asking for even more money for the football program and at the same time managing down expectations.  If he can pull both off he should run for POTUS.

Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - JohnR34231 - 06-13-2015

(06-13-2015, 08:25 AM)garvin link Wrote:Kelly isn't implying anything. He's flat-out saying his players would not have gotten into the University of Dead Fake Girlfriends without their football skills: "Honestly, I don't know that any of our players would get into the school by themselves right now with the academic standards the way they are. Maybe one or two of our players that are on scholarship."


Once again, that is more or less true at every school in the land that tries to compete in football, including the service academies and the Ivy League schools. So, speaking for myself anyway, I don't find that a particularly shocking statement.

Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - Farm93 - 06-13-2015

There are quite a number of D1 schools where a number of players on the football team are academically above the student body.  A player with 3.3 GPA and 1200 (2 part) SATs might decide LSU or Ole Miss will be their best path to the NFL.  Those players would instantly have more accomplished HS academic credentials than many of their peers.  Many schools in FBS outside of the Power 5 have SAT averages darn close to 1000 (2 part) SATs and those same programs often get football players that want to play D1 even though they could get into more selective programs with D2 or D3 sports. 

The implication that Kelly is going for though was not that the kids are below the current academic bar.  That is a given for ND as it is for Duke, Stanford, Northwestern, etc.  He was implying that the trifecta of below academic standard players, expectations to win national championships AND significant media obligations (ie. NBC profiles every week) is too difficult to then survive academically.  And since that trifecta certainly will not change, ND needs to do a lot more to help the kids avoid the temptation to cut-corners ON THEIR OWN.

That was the implication.  He certainly wasn't trying to get the school to become less selective or for the school to raise the standards of the athletes.  So that was not the implication.  That was a given.  He is whining for easier courses and more student hand holding.

If the components are not changing, then Kelly's whining is really for ND to provide a few easier classes for his athletes to take to stay eligible. That's why I could totally imagine a similar conversation taking place at UNC, behind closed doors, once upon a time.

Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - JohnR34231 - 06-13-2015

Farm93, I would be very surprised if more than a handful of football players who play at state schools have 2-part SAT's anywhere close to 1200. Just curious if you have any data that says they do?

I do agree that, unlike many state schools, ND does not have a bunch of "easier" courses for football players to take to help them stay eligible. All freshmen at ND have to pass calculus; I wonder how many football players at state schools could do that.

Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - Farm93 - 06-14-2015

(06-13-2015, 09:17 PM)JPRI link Wrote:Farm93, I would be very surprised if more than a handful of football players who play at state schools have 2-part SAT's anywhere close to 1200. Just curious if you have any data that says they do?

I do agree that, unlike many state schools, ND does not have a bunch of "easier" courses for football players to take to help them stay eligible. All freshmen at ND have to pass calculus; I wonder how many football players at state schools could do that.
Pick a test number, the logic still holds.  My co-worker has a son that was accepted to several highly selective schools, but wanted to be a D1 baseball starter.  So he is playing at CSUBakersfield.  He is far more academically qualified for the school than his peers.  He is there to live the starter dream.  Surely you know people in this category??  I can recall at my HS there were (non-football) athletes that were accepted to very prestigious schools with D3 sports, but they wanted to play D1 so they went to schools that were....let's say....less selective.  Not everyone has a mission to attend the most selective college they can find.  Not every football player is underqualified academically for the school they attend.

Stanford is recruiting a number of players from the Southeast that have SEC schools in their top 5.  Should they not get into Stanford they will be above average academically at those schools.

I am guessing this athletics component was not a factor for you in attending college, but there are a lot of kids that play college sports that are simply better academically than their peers at the school.  I have seen it enough to know it is not uncommon.  What IS uncommon is for that 1200 2-part SAT to also be a 3, 4 or 5 star football player, so perhaps that is our disconnect here.

A non-Power 5 program is not getting a lot of 3-5 star football players, but that non-Power 5 program can offer the glory of D1 ball.  And there are going to be kids that could go to better D3 schools that want that D1 experience even if they serve as a walk-on and never play.

Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - JohnR34231 - 06-14-2015

When I was talking about the dearth of players in state schools having 1200+ SAT's I was talking about the teams traditionally finishing in the top 25; teams like Florida State, Florida, Ohio State, Oregon and the like. If you want to expand that to all state schools, sure, you'll find a fair number.
One thing I can definitely tell you is that athletics were a factor my college selection, since I played football at Stanford with a scholarship.

Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - Farm93 - 06-14-2015

(06-14-2015, 07:58 AM)JPRI link Wrote:When I was talking about the dearth of players in state schools having 1200+ SAT's I was talking about the teams traditionally finishing in the top 25; teams like Florida State, Florida, Ohio State, Oregon and the like. If you want to expand that to all state schools, sure, you'll find a fair number.
One thing I can definitely tell you is that athletics were a factor my college selection, since I played football at Stanford with a scholarship.
That's fine you were talking about top 25 teams, but I mentioned right at the top that I was referring to all D1, and then highlighted the non-Power 5 program perspective.  FWIW, D1 is more than just 25 football programs.  Though that perspective partially explains our disconnect.


Love of the game is a big factor. More than you likely appreciate watching the 22 starters at top 25 programs on TV.


I think you would be shocked to learn that quite a number of players at top FBS programs have players on the roster that could have gone to much better schools.  There are some HS scholar athletes that would prefer to be scout team or 3 deep players at Illinois, Nebraska or tOSU than attend Rose-Hulman.  Or would prefer to be a practice squad athlete at "State" than go to a better school out of state.  It happens, even in FBS top 25 programs.  You just have to look beyond the 22 starters, and in some cases beyond the 85 scholarship athletes.  They are there though, even on top 25 programs.

Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - Mick - 06-14-2015

(06-14-2015, 07:29 AM)Farm93 link Wrote:[quote author=JPRI link=topic=12255.msg120598#msg120598 date=1434255466]
Farm93, I would be very surprised if more than a handful of football players who play at state schools have 2-part SAT's anywhere close to 1200. Just curious if you have any data that says they do?

I do agree that, unlike many state schools, ND does not have a bunch of "easier" courses for football players to take to help them stay eligible. All freshmen at ND have to pass calculus; I wonder how many football players at state schools could do that.
Pick a test number, the logic still holds.  My co-worker has a son that was accepted to several highly selective schools, but wanted to be a D1 baseball starter.  So he is playing at CSUBakersfield.  He is far more academically qualified for the school than his peers.  He is there to live the starter dream.  Surely you know people in this category??  I can recall at my HS there were (non-football) athletes that were accepted to very prestigious schools with D3 sports, but they wanted to play D1 so they went to schools that were....let's say....less selective.  Not everyone has a mission to attend the most selective college they can find.  Not every football player is underqualified academically for the school they attend.

Stanford is recruiting a number of players from the Southeast that have SEC schools in their top 5.  Should they not get into Stanford they will be above average academically at those schools.

I am guessing this athletics component was not a factor for you in attending college, but there are a lot of kids that play college sports that are simply better academically than their peers at the school.  I have seen it enough to know it is not uncommon.  What IS uncommon is for that 1200 2-part SAT to also be a 3, 4 or 5 star football player, so perhaps that is our disconnect here.

A non-Power 5 program is not getting a lot of 3-5 star football players, but that non-Power 5 program can offer the glory of D1 ball.  And there are going to be kids that could go to better D3 schools that want that D1 experience even if they serve as a walk-on and never play.
[/quote]


A very good (and accomplished) friend of mine was recruited by Stanford to play baseball.  He had very little money growing up (this was 30 years ago), so he attended the local college, Fresno State instead.  I guarantee you his numbers surpassed those of the average FSU student.

Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - CTcard - 06-14-2015

(06-13-2015, 01:04 PM)garvin link Wrote:I doubt it, JPRI. There are undoubtedly some players at Florida State and Boise State and Kansas State and other state schools that couldn't have made it though their admissions offices, but I doubt it's a majority.

Generally speaking, this is pretty impossible to know without more information than is publically available.

My guess for FSU is that a majority (but certainly not all) of the football players would not have been accepted had they had identical records but no football. The common data set for FSU puts the 25th percentile of ACT scores at 26 and SAT at 1690. 90+% had a high school GPA of 3.5 or better.

KSU would be closer. Their 25th percentiles were 22 and 1380. 57% had GPA 3.5 or higher.

Boise is an interesting case. It is far from a state-flagship school. Their 25th percentiles are 20 and 1370; 45% above 3.5 HS GPA. Perhaps more relevant is that the four-year average graduation rate for all students is 33% but for football is 70%. Not many places with that kind of positive differential for the football team.

Quote:Most public schools are intended be broadly available to kids of their state, and their admissions standards reflect that.

Most state flagship schools are fairly elite institutions. The complaints that "my son/daughter can't get into University of XXX" are not limited to California. Those are also most, but not all, of the Big 5 conference schools.
KSU might be a pretty good choice for one of the least difficult Big 5 schools to gain entrance - though Washington State might be better (25th percentiles of 19 ACT and 1340 SAT, 35% GPA 3.5+).

Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - CTcard - 06-15-2015

(06-15-2015, 08:24 AM)garvin link Wrote:Outside the Florida State campus, I don't think many people consider it state's flagship university. That would be the University of Florida.

Absolutely true - really inside the FSU campus as well.
If I implied otherwise I did not mean to do so.

I would say that FSU's admission criteria are fairly strong for a non-flagship school, but then again Florida is a big state.

Hmmm. I know some Alabama kids who went to FSU - Redrum - 06-15-2015

They were great people and smart in their way but ummmm... let's say "not academic all-stars".  The door at FSU  was open for them (with doormen urging them to come on in)  as out-of-state tuition payers where it was not at Univ. of Florida.

Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - Farm93 - 06-15-2015

Wasn't going to link it, but since the thread moved to FSU and Florida I thought I would point out that ESPN's OTL has posted a rather unflattering series on college football and criminal incidents.

Florida and Florida State were big "winners".  I still believe there are players on that team that would be academically qualified to get into Florida without football, but there are apparently quite a number of bad apples on those football rosters too.

http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation/post/_/id/111513/otl-study-gators-had-most-athletes-as-crime-suspects-from-2000-14



Re: Brian Kelly admits all his football players academically at-risk - BostonCard - 06-15-2015

FSU has had a couple players that Stanford has been interested in:

Myron Rolle, who was a very covetted 4/5 star safety who chose FSU over Stanford back during the dark days.  He was a Watkins award winner, and subsequently was named a Rhodes Scholar.  He was probably a bit disappointing on the field, though it is hard to call a third-team AA (in one publication) a disappointment.  After a year at Oxford, he was drafted in the sixth round of the NFL draft, but never really stuck.  He is apparently in medical school at the moment.

The other guy is more recent, Jameis Winston, a 5 star QB who chose FSU over Stanford a few years ago.  No idea how he has done academically, though he has been involved in some off-the-field controversy (to be euphemistic).  Still, he was the top pick of this last draft.

Given that we seriously recruited them, it is safe to say that they are probably above the average FSU student academically.

BC