WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - Printable Version

WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - Printable Version

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WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - 81alum - 01-28-2012

A wonderful atmosphere--Maples seemed almost full, and the crowd was loud.Â When leaving I overheard a lot of casual fans talking about what a great game it was.Â It certainly was an exciting game, but it was an ugly game at times and certainly did not reflect well on Stanford's shooting.

The lead see-sawed for the first five minutes of the game.Â Stanford then kept a small lead and gradually expanded it until it led by 9 at the half.Â School near Oakland kept within striking distance until Toni hit a 3 and Nneka got a fast-break layup in quick succession with 12 minutes left in the game.Â Stanford was up by 13 and some of the tension seemed to go out of the game--prematurely.

From that point forward a long series of missed three pointers, missed foul shots, missed layups, and inexplicable officiating calls helped C.AL go on a 16-8 run and close the game to 5 points.Â Tara inserted Bonnie Samuelson who hit two three point shots in rapid succession.Â C.AL, however, kept hitting open two point jumpers around the foul line and keeping it close.Â It was 67-60 when a TV timeout was called with 2:45 left.

Over those last few minutes Toni missed three shots, Nneka and Amber turned it over once each, Taylor missed the front end of a 1 and 1,Â and Nneka missed.Â Chiney make a couple of free throws but so did C.AL, with some baskets to go along with them and the score was 67-67 going into overtime.

Chiney was the heroine of overtime--of the whole game really.Â She made the first basket and a free throw.Â Toni added two free throws.Â C.AL got off a couple of three point attempts at the end but our defense was giving up the two to defend the three and it proved effective.

Several points stand out to me.

First, C.AL must have done something to shut down Nneka at the expense of leaving Chiney free.Â I will wait for Viking Guy to tell me what they did, but Nneka was seriously hampered the whole game.Â She was 6-18 with no free throws.

Second--well that brings me to the officiating.Â The officials were allowing any and all body contact under the basket.Â They would call fouls on the arms, but Nneka was repeatedly clobbered with hips and bodies without a single foul called.Â Hard to believe that with all that contact--lots and lots and lots of it--Nneka did not get a single free throw attempt in the entire game.Â Is this the famous physical "let them play" East Coast officiating that we will get in the NCAA tournament?Â Or is this just very, very bad officiating?

Third, our poor three point shooting nearly cost us this game.Â We shot 15%.Â Lindy was 0-8 and the crowd was visibly cringeing when she took long, long shots from several feet behind the line.Â Taylor was 0-3.Â Toni was 1-6.Â Bonnie was 2-2 or we would have lost.Â They were desperately needed when she made them.

Four, Chiney had a superb game, and must have benefited from whatever they were doing to her sister.Â She had 27 points on 9-16 shooting, and made 9-12 free throws.Â I still don't get why she got 12 free throws and her sister 0.Â Something very odd.

Five, Toni played very well other than her three point shooting.Â She had 18 points on 6-15 shooting and importantly had 5-7 free throws.

Six, Nneka, Chiney, and Toni each played more than 40 minutes!Â With all of our vaunted depth, Tara kept those three out there constantly.Â It did seem to me that this may have taken a toll on them--especially Toni, who missed most of her shots down the stretch.

Amber and Lindy gave it what they had and gave some good defensive minutes, but neither was on their game.Â Amber had 1 assist to 3 turnovers and looked a little rattled at times, so Tara gave her just 10 minutes.Â Lindy was 0-10, although she made 3 free throws.Â At a critical point in the game, however, she attempted a hard bounce pass that skipped out of bounds and was in the vicinity of no one.Â People around me in the stands commented about how terrible they felt for what is happening to her this season.Â Taylor played 22 minutes and had 4 assists and no turnovers.Â She made a particularly superb pass to Nneka in the paint that I remember.Â Joslyn started and played 16 minutes, but she seemed to me to be out there less and less in the second half.Â

Rebounds were tied in this game.*Â Turnovers were tied.Â C.AL was the more accurate team, shooting 40.5%, while we shot a miserable 36.5%.Â Go figure.

I would love to hear from someone who was able to stay after for Tara's talk, and of course from the expert eye of Viking Guy, who I'm sure can tell us what they did to Nneka.

*Rebounds were tied at 42 according to the ESPN box score, but the box score on the Stanford website gives us a 51-47 lead.Â I have no idea why there is a discrepancy.Â Perhaps ESPN did not count overtime?

Re: WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - Yellowlab - 01-28-2012

We went to the pregame chalk talk and to the FBC meeting afterwards.Â Pregame the #1, #1 priority was boxing out.Â They were very concerned about rebounding (and didn't want to play zone, because they were afraid of ceding rebounding position.)Â #2 They didn't think the team near Oakland could shoot from the perimeter, and were willing to clog the middle even, if it meant giving up some outside shots.Â Point guard dribble penetration was the second biggest fear going into the game.Â (They had to make adjustments on this last priority.) We learned that Sarah Booth is out 4-6 weeks, and that Ruef is not close to returning.

After the game, we learned that Nneka had missed multiple practices due to illness.Â That explained her worst game of the year.Â That and the pounding she took in the act of shooting, over and over again.Â No calls.Â Certain refs (I'm not mentioning Melissa Barlow by name) are known to be bad news, but this crew let way too much go.

Cheney was an absolute monster, but give the other team some credit.Â They would not go away.Â That was a fantastic battle, and guess what?Â NO TV!Â Of course, Oregon vs. Oregon St. is on now.

Stanford had a small rebounding edge, but the battles for the ball were fierce and not at all one sided.Â Sarah Booth would've liked it, and might have made a positive difference.

Brittany Boyd seems like a real player.Â They have excellent post players.Â Clarendon made some of extremely large proportions shots.Â That team is going to end up ranked and will do some damage come tournament time.

Re: WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - Viking_Guy - 01-28-2012

In a way, glad to hear that Nneka was ill; I thought it was the ankle injury.Â Whatever the case, she had zero lift; think about how long it has been since you've seen her really sky for a rebound and bring it down, or get great elevation for a putback attempt.Â I think she may be a bit hurt as well as sick; we'll see how she does in the desert next week.

WBB2, if you're not willing to go there, I am.Â Melissa Barlow nearly single-handedly turned the game around.Â Stanford had pushed out to their largest lead of the game, 61-47.Â After a short jumper, Stanford brought the ball up, and it got knocked loose.Â Chiney goes back after it and is run into by Brandon, I think.Â Brandon falls to the floor, and Missy whistles - an offensive foul on Chiney for pushing off.Â 30 feet from the basket.Â After all the contact she was letting go under the hoop.Â Replays showed little if any contact, and that only after Brandon had slammed into Chiney's left shoulder without being called for a foul.

From that point, Stanford scored exactly 8 points, including Bonnie's 2 3-pointers.Â And Bonnie's shots only came after Stanford didn't score at all in 4 minutes or so.Â Why?Â Can you say K.al went to a 2-3 zone?Â I knew that you could.

I somewhat buy the "poor rebounding position" argument against the zone, but you also give up rebounding position if your posts are constantly having to rotate to help because your perimeter players can't stay with their marks at the point of attack in a p2p defense.

I got upset with the coaching; the Bares essentially ran one play for the last 8 minutes or so (and a lot of overtime); high dribble hand-off sets up a pick at the top corner of the lane.Â And Stanford did nothing to adjust (at least until about 3 minutes into the overtime, when Chiney finally hedged hard off the pick and forced Boyd out).Â But both Boyd and Clarendon were getting open foul line jumpers because (1) their defenders were going under the pick every time and (2) the posts didn't hedge.Â How many open jumpshots in the lane or drives into the paint are you going to give up because you're worried that Kal might get good rebounding position against the zone?

Meanwhile, we did exactly nothing against the 2-3 zone.Â The only points in the last 8 minutes were Chiney's 2 FTs following an offensive rebound and Bonnie's threes (and even those weren't really the result of a "zone offense"; Bonnie got into the space on the wing and overloaded the top corner of the 2-3).Â And then Tara, because Bonnie (like every other Stanford perimeter defender) couldn't/didn't slow down the penetration from that wing pick play, pulls Samuelson out of the game for Greenfield.

And they didn't score at all in the last 2+ minutes.Â Part of it was Missy and co. letting them play (there were some out and out tackles going on under the hoop).Â But there was just some not so intelligent play against a not-very-good Berkeley press.Â Missing the front end of two 1 and 1 opportunities.Â Toni, after a press break, being content to heave up a 3 point shot instead of driving inside and trying to get to the FT line.Â Oh, and the fact that Missy and company called exactly 1 foul on Berkeley in the last eight minutes of regulation.Â Against a zone, admittedly, but still - 1 foul, in eight minutes (and that on Chiney's putback attempt).

There was some defensive adjustment against K.al's lack of outside shooting; Lindy often dropped into the paint when guarding Pierre, Boyd or Clarendon, daring them to shoot (remniscent of Kelley Suminski's one-woman zone against a bad shooting ASU team in the Pac-10 tourney a few years back).Â It worked for the most part; the problem was she kept backing up further into the lane until she was giving up FT line jumpshots.Â Other players were also playing p2p but with "zonish" execution - not chasing Bares into the corner.

Stanford showed some 2-1-2 and their "high 2-3" at points during the game; the problem was both of those zones either leave a gap in the center of the lane or, if the backline is playing high enough, room underneath for Berkeley's posts to set up for rebounding position.

~~

At this point, I feel like Lindy to a certain extent like I feel about Jarrett Mann - uncertain as to why they play so many crunch time minutes with their offensive limitations, especially against zone defenses.Â Lindy not only couldn't hit anything, she was backing further away from the line trying to get her shot up (she was a good 3 feet beyond the line on her last 3-4 shots).Â And she's not really a great driver or finisher from the perimeter.Â She has some good defensive moments (took a key charge late in the game), but also is the perimeter player who gets beaten on lateral quickness the most easily (well, excepting Bonnie).Â She is good at running the triangle, but I am waiting for other teams to do what Stanford today; drop the player guarding her into the lane until she shows she can hit consistently from outside.

POTG definitely to Chiney, 27 points and EIGHTEEN rebounds, and Stanford's primary offensive option in the second half when they built a lead.Â Also was the defender out on the perimeter at the end of overtime forcing two horrid shots by Clarendon. Strong cameos by Toni and Bonnie, as the only 2 players to hit an outside shot, and Toni for her nails FTs at the end of overtime to push the lead to 3.

One other thing: we still can't run an effective end of period offense.Â The end of regulation was horrific.Â Toni gets the ball coming out of a timeout with the game tied and dribbles the clock down for 10 seconds, then we call another timeout.Â Ball at midcourt with 11 seconds left, and we end up with Nneka trying to drive from the right wing with 6 seconds left, almost trying to run an isolation.Â But those only work if the other team doesn't drop off every outside shooter and crowd the lane, as Berkeley had been doing all game.Â Nneka ends up with a contested shot with 4 defenders in the lane to guard against an offensive rebound. I would've tried to set up Bonnie on the far wing from the drive - might not have gone down, but some defenders/rebounders might have had to come farther than 8 feet from the hoop.Â To be honest, I was surprised Missy didn't call a foul on Stanford somehow out of that.

One last on the officiating: the worst call of the day wasn't the offensive foul against Chiney.Â Late in the second half, Greenfield and a Kal defender were chasing a rebound out toward the northeast corner (right near me).Â They collide, the Bare hits the ball twice as it goes out of bounds, and Missy and the other female ref, Nakasone, look at one another.Â No signal.Â Then no signal.Â Then no signal.Â They don't huddle, they don't go to the replay to make the correct call; they finally just give the ball to Kal.Â If there is a correctable error on a 3-point shot (as there was at the end of regulation), why not there?Â It was extremely frustrating, but Barlow has seniority (i.e. she's been just good enough to survive for a long time she gets assigned to work big games).Â

My issue with her is that she has an extremely large ego for a ref; she wants to interject herself into the game, and will always manage to find at least one questionable call where she can "impose her will" on the game.Â I think she thinks at that point that "making the tough call" means that she is a good ref, so she makes a call that is probably 70-30 one way and calls it for the 30 percent option.

Hoping Nneka feels better in Tempe and Tucson,

VG

Re: WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - 81alum - 01-28-2012

Thanks, VG.Â I thought the refs made a whole series of bad calls and non-calls in the second half--the replays that were shown at Maples seemed to confirm their bad calls every time and elicited resounding boos.Â Of course the crowd was partisan--although the Maples crowd has been know not to boo with some replays.Â But it almost seemed to me that--subconsciously perhaps--the refs were trying to prove they could not be influenced by the partisan home crowd, rather than calling the game objectively.

I took a look through the play by play to see if I could tell if our 3 40+ minute players were fatigued, and it sure looks like that could be part of it:

1. Toni was 6/10 in the first 30 minutes of the game, and 0/5 in the last 15 minutes.Â

2. Even more telling was Nneka.Â Nneka make her last basket with 12:13 left in regulation--on that fast break layup that Toni fed to her.Â After that point she had two turnovers and two misses, and did not even take a shot in overtime.Â I think that says something when the game is on the line and your star senior player does not take a shot.

3. Chiney was 8/12 with 8:23 left in regulation.Â She went 1/4 the rest of the game.Â That one basket was vital--our only overtime basket.

Much of this was probably the zone that VG pointed out.Â But Chiney and Nneka and Toni did begin to look tired to me, and for one reason or another their shooting certainly dropped off a cliff.

I do wonder whether Nneka was even at 70% today.Â Perhaps she really was ill or hurt and was bravely gutting it out, since if the opposition does not know the inside story she will still serve as a supremely good decoy.Â Can we read that interpretation into what she said?

"Teams can pick their poison but they'll be poisoned by something else. I have faith in my teammates."

Re: WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - Viking_Guy - 01-28-2012

One other thing about Missy - she tends to call on anticipation of the play, rather than the actual play.Â I know there are multiple schools of thought about this in refereeing, but she more than anyone else I've seen makes up her mind early as to what actually happened.

VG

Re: WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - treefan - 01-28-2012

Quote:h played more than 40 minutes!Â With all of our vaunted depth, Tara kept those three out there constantly.Â It did seem to me that this may have taken a toll on them--especially Toni, who missed most of her shots down the stretch.

Unfortunately, we have no depth due to injuries. Camp, Green, Ruef and Boothe out = 11 player roster and 8 likely rotation, 3 of whom are frosh. That maybe could explain why Tara went with Lindy or Orrange for so long today, but her line doesn't justify the PT, imho.

Re: WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - treefan - 01-28-2012

Spot on analysis by everyone and couldn't agree more with VG about the refs, namely Missy.

I was apoplectic at her calls! Not only were many of them wrong, i.e, not a foul, but she made them WAY of out position (the so called elbow by Chiney prime example). And the dude ref who hadn't blown is whistle all game, i.e., let them murder Nneka in the paint, all of sudden found his whistle and the balls to call a mystery foul on Lindy sending Kal to the line to tie it.

I understand refs miss calls, but today's crew was incompetent to say the least.

I was worried going into OT as Kal and momentum, but credit Chiney for her basket and monster boarding, and Toni's FTs.

Moving forward, Orrange needs to stay in the game more, as does Tinkle. Taylor and Bonnie need more time too.

Re: WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - pepper1 - 01-29-2012

It was a very entertaining game and a gutsy win by the Cardinal on a day when they were throwing up scores of bricks on open 3's.Â The Bares also showed grit in hanging in there after several Stanford runs where they could easily have quit.Â After three straight top-10 recruiting classes, the Bares are finally delivering on some of their potential -- their talent was very evident.Â Clarendon was especially impressive and Boyd, despite the Iverson-like love for any shot she could find, invent or imagine, looked like a real offensive force, especially for a frosh.Â Coach Gottlieb clearly is turning the Bares into a power that will challenge the Cardinal going forward ... which I think will be a good thing.

The Three Sisters (Toni has established her credentials as the Third in big games) all were impressive, even though Nneka was evidently playing hurt.Â There was outstanding interior defense by both teams, and Chiney was the best of an outstanding group.Â It was a bit of a bummer that Amber was pretty much of a non-factor in this game after the pub her freshman PG matchup with Boyd got before the game.Â We'll need her to be ready to play in the games in March if we are going to be successful.Â Toni fortunately did not seem to have any problem handing the point against a quick & physical Bare D.Â Lindy, Taylor & Jos all played tough throughout the game & did not let their weak offensive games discourage them on the other end (special kudos to Lindy particularly for hanging tough on D when her shooting was such a mess) and on the boards.Â Nneka's and Chiney's uncharacteristic rebound fumbling from the Washington game had totally disappeared today.

Almost losing a Pac-12 game at home will hopefully be a wake-up call for the team and provide some coaching opportunities for Tara & staff.Â The rematch over in Berkeley ought to be worth the trip across the Bay.Â

Re: WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - M T - 01-29-2012

Normally I look down on the court from the upper seats.Â I was concerned this game might sell out, so I arrived an hour early and bought a front row seat (well, row CC, front row not on the court) virtually in the middle.Â I could get used to that!

But then I almost had a front row seat to a game I would hate to remember.Â I understand why Tara wished the game had been televised.Â But I think it would have shown weaknesses of Stanford, and probably hurt us in the polls (more than the close game to a currently unranked team).

I had thought this year's team would be nearly the quality of last year's team.Â At this point, I don't think so.Â We've got two great players, and a good player.Â We've got several possibilities for the other two positions, but no one has stepped up.Â Two weeks ago, I was in the 6th row at the Baylor-Texas game.Â Right now, I don't think we'd have much of a chance against Baylor.

I was one of those decrying the calls/non-calls of the refs -- I wish the refs were as good as the players.Â I was surprised after the game when I saw that Stanford wound up with 13 fouls while Cal had 16 (discounting 1+2 fouls at the end of the 2nd half+overtime).Â I will note that Melissa didn't make any particularly bad calls at the end of the 2nd half or overtime, when the calls could have clearly changed the outcome.

What bothered me most about this game, and I feel I've seen it too often for Stanford over the years, is the comfortable lead being blown.Â We were 14 points up with just over 8 minutes left. Tara seemed to attribute this to streaks in the game.Â I feel that Tara's teams don't do a good job of lead management.Â Below are Stanford possessions in the last 8 minutes of regulation (second time is seconds left in shot clock, as best I can estimate from play by play).Â I've marked the plays (mostly early shots) that seem questionable to me, plus the 5 turnovers.Â Mostly, these errors were made by very experienced players.Â (And, of course, we shot only 20% during that time.)

07:41Â 0:07 Foul by Melissa B.
07:12Â 0:17 3PT attempt by JoslynÂ [? ? ?]
06:44Â 0:12 Layup attempt by Chiney [Stanford steals the ball back immediately]
06:37Â 0:29 Layup attempt by Chiney
06:18Â 0:14 Turnover by NnekaÂ Â [xxx]
05:34Â 0:14 Turnover by LindyÂ Â Â [xxx]
05:15Â 0:15 3PT attempt by LindyÂ [? ? ?]
04:43Â 0:07 2PT attempt by Taylor
04:09Â 0:25 Turnover by ToniÂ Â Â Â [xxx]
03:42Â 0:11 3PT made by Bonnie
03:14Â 0:17 3PT made by Bonnie [Good result, early shot, IMO.Â ? ? ?]
02:31Â 0:03 3PT attempt by Toni
02:10Â 0:26 Turnover by NnekaÂ [We apparently wind up with the ball here.Â I guess this was a tie ball, awarded to Stanford.]
01:46Â 0:02 2PT attempt by Toni
01:21Â 0:17 3PT attempt by ToniÂ [? ? ?]
00:43Â 0:02 Turnover by Amber [xxx]
00:34Â 0:27 Intentional foul after a throw-in.
Â Â Â Â Â Â [0:23 left in C possession: Foul by LindyÂ ? ?]
Score is tied.

When I looked at the plus/minus, I was surprised by the numbers:

Player	Min	NetPts	NetP/G
Greenfield, Taylor	27:40	20	28.92
Kokenis, Toni	41:41	6	5.76
La Rocque, Lindy	34:45	8	9.21
Ogwumike, Chiney	42:15	3	2.84
Ogwumike, Nnemkadi	42:49	-3	-2.80
Orrange, Amber	9:15	-9	-38.92
Samuelson, Bonnie	11:04	0	0.00
Tinkle, Joslyn	15:30	-10	-25.81

Re: WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - 81alum - 01-29-2012

(01-29-2012, 05:57 AM)MT link Wrote:...
I had thought this year's team would be nearly the quality of last year's team.Â At this point, I don't think so.Â We've got two great players, and a good player.Â We've got several possibilities for the other two positions, but no one has stepped up.Â Two weeks ago, I was in the 6th row at the Baylor-Texas game.Â Right now, I don't think we'd have much of a chance against Baylor.
...
01:21Â 0:17 3PT attempt by ToniÂ [? ? ?]
...
When I looked at the plus/minus, I was surprised by the numbers:
...

Very interesting stats and observations, MT.

I'm afraid I agree on your pessimism for how we would do against the top teams at this point.Â As Tennessee struggles, our marquee win over Tennessee is turning out not to be such a good sign of strength.Â Then with highly competitive games at the University of South Central and at home against Oregon State we should have already received the proverbialÂ "wake up call" before playing C.AL. With four injuries shrinking our depth, and Nneka possibly concealing some kind of issue this week (like Jayne Appel did for much of her senior year) the avid Stanford WBB fan has a lot to worry about!

I'm also growing concerned about guard play for next year.Â Whatever else one may say about Lindy, try to imagine how much worse the fatigue factor might have been in yesterday's game if we did not have her.Â Then keep in mind that she graduates and we have no guards in the incoming class.Â We have to hope that Jasmine and Alex recover fully from their injuries, that Sara James blossoms as a contributor, and that Toni and Amber avoid the injury plague.Â Just 5 of our 15 scholarships will be guards.

I had not noticed the pattern of poor clock management until you pointed it out.Â But I (and the whole section of fans next to me) did groan when Toni took that shot with 17 seconds on the shot clock.Â She must have been very confident she could make it--and if it goes in it might well have put the game away.

I'm not sure what to make of those interesting plus/minus figures.Â Obviously it is a much more holistic way to judge a player's contribution and may be one of the few statistical ways to make sure a player gets credit for her defensive contributions (along with everything else.)Â My guess is that the plus/minus is particularly sensitive to turnovers--each turnover, after all, could be a 4 point (or more) swing.Â This might help to explain why Taylor comes out so well--she had 0 turnovers and 4 assists.Â And Amber comes out badly because of her 3 turnovers in 10 minutes.Â

Re: WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - 81alum - 01-29-2012

(01-29-2012, 05:57 AM)MT link Wrote:When I looked at the plus/minus, I was surprised by the numbers:

Player Min NetPts NetP/G

Greenfield, Taylor
27:40
20
28.92

Kokenis, Toni
41:41
6
5.76

La Rocque, Lindy
34:45
8
9.21

Ogwumike, Chiney
42:15
3
2.84

Ogwumike, Nnemkadi
42:49
-3
-2.80

Orrange, Amber
9:15
-9
-38.92

Samuelson, Bonnie
11:04
0
0.00

Tinkle, Joslyn
15:30
-10
-25.81

I've always been fascinated (last year too!) by your plus/minus figures.Â I wonder how much of it, though, actually works out to be caused (or exaggerated) by substitutions decisions by the coaching staff.

Tara pulls players out if they are playing poorly or the game is going badly and she wants to try a different combination.Â Once a player is pulled her minutes are essentially "frozen" with a negative plus/minus.Â You could say that Tara has her own "plus/minus" running in her head and acts on it.

If, on the other hand, Tara leaves a player in it allows an opportunity to make up for the previous poor play or at least to "return to the mean."Â None of the players who were in for 20 minutes or more had particularly bad plus/minus ratios.

At the least the plus/minus ratio might help to explain why the coaching staff made the decisions it did: why it pulled Amber and Joslyn.Â These two did start the game, after all, and each of them played relatively few minutes.

Re: WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - treefan - 01-29-2012

Quote:But then I almost had a front row seat to a game I would hate to remember.Â I understand why Tara wished the game had been televised.Â But I think it would have shown weaknesses of Stanford, and probably hurt us in the polls (more than the close game to a currently unranked team).

agree.

Quote:I had thought this year's team would be nearly the quality of last year's team.Â At this point, I don't think so.Â We've got two great players, and a good player.Â We've got several possibilities for the other two positions, but no one has stepped up.Â Two weeks ago, I was in the 6th row at the Baylor-Texas game.Â Right now, I don't think we'd have much of a chance against Baylor.

Sorry, but that is crazy to think we were going to be nearly as good as last year's team. It is very, very difficult to replace two players who played in every game in four years (minus one for Kayla) and their combined 27 pts and 11 boards. (and Pohlen's 96 threes!). We are young and not very deep in the backcourt because of injuries.

Quote:I will note that Melissa didn't make any particularly bad calls at the end of the 2nd half or overtime, when the calls could have clearly changed the outcome.

Disagree. Missy's egregious call on Chiney with about 2 min in the OT put Kal at the line, luckily they missed it.

Quote:What bothered me most about this game, and I feel I've seen it too often for Stanford over the years, is the comfortable lead being blown.Â We were 14 points up with just over 8 minutes left. Tara seemed to attribute this to streaks in the game.Â I feel that Tara's teams don't do a good job of lead management.Â Below are Stanford possessions in the last 8 minutes of regulation (second time is seconds left in shot clock, as best I can estimate from play by play).Â I've marked the plays (mostly early shots) that seem questionable to me, plus the 5 turnovers.Â Mostly, these errors were made by very experienced players.Â (And, of course, we shot only 20% during that time.)

agree.

Re: WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - treefan - 01-29-2012

Quote:I'm afraid I agree on your pessimism for how we would do against the top teams at this point.Â As Tennessee struggles, our marquee win over Tennessee is turning out not to be such a good sign of strength.Â Then with highly competitive games at the University of South Central and at home against Oregon State we should have already received the proverbialÂ "wake up call" before playing C.AL. With four injuries shrinking our depth, and Nneka possibly concealing some kind of issue this week (like Jayne Appel did for much of her senior year) the avid Stanford WBB fan has a lot to worry about!

Agree that TN win doesn't look that great now.Â I'm not worried about Nneka, her ankle is fine.

Quote:I'm also growing concerned about guard play for next year.Â Whatever else one may say about Lindy, try to imagine how much worse the fatigue factor might have been in yesterday's game if we did not have her.Â Then keep in mind that she graduates and we have no guards in the incoming class.Â We have to hope that Jasmine and Alex recover fully from their injuries, that Sara James blossoms as a contributor, and that Toni and Amber avoid the injury plague.Â Just 5 of our 15 scholarships will be guards.

I'm not worried about our guards, at all. 5 out of 15 is a lot. Camp and Green are the REAL deal. Once healthy, we will be very good. I worry how replace Nneka's pts and boards.

Quote:I had not noticed the pattern of poor clock management until you pointed it out.Â But I (and the whole section of fans next to me) did groan when Toni took that shot with 17 seconds on the shot clock.Â She must have been very confident she could make it--and if it goes in it might well have put the game away.

I sit close to our bench and Tara told her it was not a good shot. She didn't need to be told. Mistake for sure, but she gave us many, many more positives!

Re: WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - Yellowlab - 01-29-2012

(01-28-2012, 10:10 PM)Viking_Guy link Wrote:One other thing about Missy - she tends to call on anticipation of the play, rather than the actual play.Â I know there are multiple schools of thought about this in refereeing, but she more than anyone else I've seen makes up her mind early as to what actually happened.

VG

I totally agree.Â It happens to all refs at some point, but it is a pattern in her case.

Re: WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - Griffins78 - 01-29-2012

I thought Tara's move to insert Bonnie and Taylor in for Lindy and I think Jos was a great move. Brittany Boyd had been unstoppable and was threatening to take over the game and will the Bears to victory - but Taylor stopped her on the first possession and then Bonnie hit her first 3, then IIRC Taylor got the rebound and Bonnie hit another 3. That really stopped the Bears from overtaking us. In fact, at that point, it seemed like a typical Stanford game where the opposition keeps it close and then we blow them out in the second half of the second period.

But Nneka went down hard in the middle of the half and didn't seem the same. She couldn't run or jump effectively and after winning the opening tipoff she easily lost the overtime jump ball. I'm not sure she scored afterwards. Add to Nneka going down hard - being sick all week and going almost the entire game with the Bears doubling and collapsing on her, but mostly aggressively getting hands on the ball and challenging her on every rebound and shot explained her difficulties and I think those things had a lot to do with us losing our lead and not finishing as we often do.

Chiney was brobdingnagian! And to her credit she went a long time without a foul - which was important because in the stretch at the end she had 4 fouls. I seriously felt that if she fouled out - we would lose the game. I mean she just owned the backboard and grabbed just about every rebound down the stretch and just took it to the basket and was unstoppable.

Lindy is a good 3-point shooter that has been in a slump - but she's taking the right shots and that's what Tara wants. Tara is not playing Sara James because she wasn't taking the shots when the team and play have set her up to take them. In this game Amber struggled early - perhaps uncharacteristically, but she turned the ball over several times - so Lindy played a lot more. And I think Lindy directs our team on the floor at both ends. With so much youth on the floor you need someone out there telling them what to do, where to go, and who to guard. This is a young team and the season is all towards winning games, which we are doing, developing our younger players, and becoming more cohesive. I think Lindy - as frustrating as it is for her and us to have her miss shots or have quick guards blow by her - is playing a very important role for us.

Toni really seemed to step it up this game. I did think her quick 3 miss at the end was a mistake but to see her take Boyd one on one and beat her at will was beautiful. Boyd had her best game of the year but I have to think Toni being able to just blow by her and then the next time, stop for a quick jumper had to get into Boyd's head.

Jos had a good game - she seems to often be in the right place at the right time - and she blocked some shots and fought and won rebounds. Great to see. Taylor is just quicker and a better ball handler - so with the Bears more athletic lineup and aggressive, sometimes trapping defense, Tara needed Taylor in a lot and she responded well.

Overall - I think the Bears played a great game and I think Coach Gottlieb has made a brobdingnagian difference over Boyle. In the past, they would lose their confidence down the end but she kept them fighting and believing. They have some great guards - Boyd is much better than Gray-Lawson. It'll be fun to watch her develop and grow. And she has a strong, deep frontline that can play aggressive and go toe-to-toe with anyone. It's going to be a tough game at Harmon where it will be LOUD!

I'm not so concerned that we lost our lead - I'm more happy that we didn't lose but won a close game. Cal is a good team.

Yes - we aren't a Final Four team right now - but we don't need to be yet. When our shots start falling, it will all feel a lot better.

Re: WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - 81alum - 01-29-2012

(01-29-2012, 12:14 PM)treefan link Wrote:I'm not worried about our guards, at all. 5 out of 15 is a lot. Camp and Green are the REAL deal. Once healthy, we will be very good. I worry how replace Nneka's pts and boards.

I hope very much you are right.Â But we have 7 guards on scholarship this year and you can see what a few injuries and a few unmet expectations can do.Â If we had a similar number of injuries and unmet expectations next year, with only 5 guards it could be a disaster.

(01-29-2012, 12:14 PM)treefan link Wrote:I worry how replace Nneka's pts and boards.

A reasonable worry, but I think we might manage, just like we managed when Candice graduated.Â Chiney has dramatically improved this year--I think she is about a year ahead of where Nneka was at the same age.Â Coming in are Alyson Beebe and Tess Picknell.Â Alyson is a very athletic, five star, 6-3 forward who was rated similarly to Nneka in high school until she tore her ACL and had to miss her senior year.Â If she is able to return to form she could be another Nneka--but of course a frosh Nneka and not a senior Nneka.Â Tess Picknell is 6-5 and thus far has been more of a defensive presence and shot blocker in high school.Â She seems more like a Sarah Boothe from what I can gather.Â But remember Tara's dictum that the greatest improvement of players usually comes between their frosh and sophomore years.Â Taylor and/or Bonnie and/or Erica could be dramatically improved next year.Â And Joslyn will probably have an outstanding year once she becomes a regular and playing at her natural position--which I would guess she will--especially at the beginning of the year when Alyson is very green.

So, a steadily improving Chiney, a much improved player at wing, modest but steadily growing contributions from an elite frosh forward, a healthy redshirted Sarah Boothe, and growing contributions from Joslyn will have to "replace" Nneka.Â That is about the most optimistic way of looking at it, anyway.

Re: WBB: Stanford 74 C.AL 71 OT - meos - 01-29-2012

Agreed on all the major themes: great atmosphere at Maples, one Ref trying to make herself the star, wondering about Nneka's production (later getting word from post-game talk on her illness), very nice step-up by Chiney.

From where I was sitting, that Ref seemed to enjoy getting the ire of the crowd on her really bad calls.

But, congratulate Cal, they came to play and made the most of what they were seeing out there. If playing top seeds close really counted with voters, Cal would already be ranked.

Harder to sit thru, but good to see Stanford pushed hard in a game. Knowledgeable people in my area were also wondering about the substitution patterns. Some players can go 0-fer and still get court time, while others are pulled after a minute on court or have 1 mistake. For example, Bonnie went 2-2 on 3's in a span of about 1 minute. (Great teams and coaches collectively recognize a hot hand [possibility], and get that player the ball again.) No chance to see if Bonnie was hot, she was pulled from the game -- I don't think she took another FG or 3ptFG attempt after going 2-2 on 3-pointers, at a critical momentum changing time.

But, the coaching staff orchestrated the winÂ .. they should know their players best.

As supportive fans, several of us can still play what if, and wonder why NOT more Amber, to contain the perimeter penetration (while knowingÂ Amber still needs to get in better shape and Lindy is a more vocal leader); why NOT more Bonnie when she's feeling it from 3 (knowing Tinkle and Greenfield are physically stronger). But at crunch time, I guess it comes down to - who you trust.

Another very nice game to experience at Maples.