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WBB: A Few Thoughts - chimera - 03-20-2023
Season is done, sadly. For better or worse, sports seasons are ephemeral, win it all or lose early. Next game, next season is always coming fast. We've had several posts that make the case that Tara is and has been a lousy coach. That sort of post doesn't allow for reasonable discussion about her strengths and weaknesses as a coach. I mean, what can you say in response? Whatever you think of her decisions this season (there is a lot to chew on there), it is simply impossible to be a lousy coach and go to as many Final Fours and win as many championships as Tara has. The last two seasons before this one were champions and F4. This is not ancient history. It's really hard to discuss the coaching when a few posters make generalizations like Tara is terrible. What can the rest of us say? Usually disagree and get called homers or something. Not productive, not constructive. Specifics are in order and not the "she always" or "she never" kind. Always and never are rare. Shades of gray, perhaps, instead? That is if people ant a discussion vs want to rant because they don't like Tara. Ranting is your right but it won't bring forth constructive criticism.
I was going to post more about the offense, but I feel that is tapped out as a topic at this point. Instead I am going to wonder about a few things. I miss the old days when we had post-game events after many games where we fans could ask Tara questions like why did she change the offense, what is working, what is not, candid thoughts about officiating and the state of the game, etc. We used to get 20-30 minutes of that after some games. Some of the angst and maybe even anger on the board might have been alleviated if we were able to get answers straight from the horse's mouth.
So I wonder-
What happened with Iriafen? She is clearly very talented. She started most of the games and played well early in the season. Around the time she was replaced for a few games by Emma-Nnopu something went awry in her game and she never got back to her level of play from earlier in the season. She had not gotten near her ceiling but she was progressing up the learning curve. Brink got moved to the 4 to make room for Kiki at the 5 so the thought was that Iriafen would blossom and become a force. What went wrong there?
What happened with all of our sophs? Usually by the end of someone's sophomore year, we can see who is going to be a star, who is going to be a mainstay in the rotation. Not always, as some players are late bloomers in their college careers (McCall, Ruef, etc., etc.), but usually. None of our sophs really got going consistently, though they did have their moments. This was a crazy season and a difficult one, so maybe the old saw that frosh to soph is the biggest jump in performance doesn't apply this time. Still and all, I hoped for more from Iriafen, Demetre and Bosgana. Maybe the offense, which was designed around Brink and Jones and Jump sucked the air out of the room in a sense, did not allow for the growth of the younger players? This is a key question going into next season. These players will be juniors. We need them to be impact players.
What will the coaches do with the offense next season? Losing Jones is a very big loss. We also lose the post depth from Belibi and Prechtel, which should not be as big a deal with Betts coming along, Brink doing her thing as a senior, and Iriafen getting back into form (knock wood). I never assume that freshmen will play a lot early so mostly the returning players will be the ones the offense has to suit. I did not like the offense we ended up using. It never gelled. The screening never looked great. It was too slow. Too much staring down a post hoping to make an entry pass while the whole offense stalled. More of the same next season? Changed to what, if not? And oh yeah, for the posters who claim we don't have guards who can drive - where exactly in this offense could they go? On almost every possession, Brink or Betts or some post was trying to post up, usually with multiple defenders in the area waiting to double team our post. There wasn't exactly a ton of room in there to drive. I do think we needed more drives (and that players like Nivar and Bosgana could be good at it), but the offense was not exactly conducive, was it? Sagging defenses mean fewer driving lanes. We need a more aggressive offense, more driving lanes, more drive and dish, just generally more movement and better passing generally. A lot was not working.
How will the posts be utilized? Brink looked very good as a 4 early on except she lost her three point shot, which she needs for next year, or at least a consistent mid-range jumper. I would assume Tara needs to find a way to play Betts and Brink together and keep Iriafen in there with good minutes. Demetre might be more of a strict 4 next season, which might help her since she would not have to defend on the perimeter as much. She could make a nice stretch 4. If Bonnie Samuelson could do it, so can Demetre. I'd expect Betts, Brink, Iriafen and Demetre are the 4/5 group (ignoring incoming frosh for now).
How long will Tara continue? She will be 70 this year I believe. Coaching is an intense, difficult job. She can't go forever. For those who want her gone, be careful what you wish for. As we see with other sports and other teams in WCBB who have had a lot of talent over the years but can't quite put it all together, winning is hard and winning consistently as Stanford has under Tara is insanely hard. There is no guarantee anyone else will do anything as well - recruit, X's and O's, anything. When a season like this feels like a failure and fans are cranky two years removed from a championship, you know you have it good. It's nice to be able to complain about a season all but a very few teams would kill to have.
How will the incoming frosh look? We have what should be a great group coming in. Will any of them bust out early? The Funky four is an anomaly because it is rare that a class like that features players who all were important contributors. Usually half or a third of a class like that ends up never really making the rotation. Yes, Prechtel got very little run this season, but that was because we were so stacked inside, not because she wasn't and isn't a capable player.
OK, done wondering. Next season should be interesting. Sometime you lose a player like Jones who can dominate a team with her game and her personality and a team needs a season or two to get back on track. Other times, while you lose a star and ostensibly become weaker, the change allows others to step up, blossom, whatever you want to call it, and a team becomes better in a sense, because the contributions are more spread out. Not knocking Jones, she's been fantastic, but hoping the void she leaves opens up the floor to gains by so many other players the team thrives. That happened when Nicole Powell graduated. Of course the other thing that happened was Candice Wiggins arrived. I don't know if let's say Ogden is the next Wiggins (in impact, not in style of play necessarily), but we can hope.
RE: A Few Thoughts - BostonCard - 03-20-2023
The board (collectively) is disappointed, frustrated and upset. I don't think finger pointing is all that constructive either, but for some it can help them grieve the loss. As I am sometimes reminded, what's the point of a fan message board if not to enable hyperbolic catastrophizing from people who care much more than is reasonable?
BC
RE: A Few Thoughts - RuralFan - 03-20-2023
I would be negligent if I didn't start off by thanking the team, the coaches, and many of the posters on this board for a very interesting season. It certainly held my interest. I am not a knowledgeable person on the Xs and Os of basketball. I feel as if learned a lot from this board and was impressed with the expertise of many of the posters as well as with their compassion toward the players, the coaches and other supporters of the program. Thanks!
My view of the ending is a bit different. I think we were "portalized". The year started off with our most experienced guard and the second best three point shooter on the team entering the portal and leaving. This forced us into some lineups that we really didn't want and many simply didn't work very well. It was exactly the David Shaw experience. He didn't use the right line ups, his substitution patterns were all wrong, and his play calling was pitiful. Sound familiar? The WBB team then faced a number of teams that made use of the portal. which allows upgrading certain positions and in the some cases upgrading the entire starting line up with experience and physical maturity. Yes, I am talking about USC and Ole Miss. Did anyone notice what was happening to Cameron last night? At one point she was thrown to the floor. The post play was absolutely brutal. A weakened Cameron was out blocked, out hit or just pushed aside. But in end she just wasn't strong enough. Maybe she will be next year.
Okay, what about next year. It will all depend on the portal. How many players will we lose and how many players will we gain? I have no idea. but I can sort of know what the football experience is this year with the portal. We seem to be able to accept transfers from Ivy League schools. One knowledgable football poster doesn't believe this policy will help football very much, but who knows. Princeton certainly has some women basketball players we could use, but Princeton is a very nice place to leave. The one thing about next year is very clear. Every opponent will hope to "portalize" Stanford.
RE: A Few Thoughts - OCcardinal - 03-22-2023
(03-20-2023, 04:20 PM)chimera Wrote: What happened with all of our sophs?...I hoped for more from Iriafen, Demetre and Bosgana....Yes, Prechtel got very little run this season, but that was because we were so stacked inside, not because she wasn't and isn't a capable player.Let's look at the #s:
Prechtel 2021/2023 (using 2021 as that was the year she was most effective)
Minutes 427/241
Pts/40 16.2/12.4
Blk/40 3.1/2.4
3pt % 37.1%/30.5%
Def Rtg 73.2/80.5 (lower is better)
PER 25.8/19.3
Iriafen 2022/2023
Minutes 215/424
Pts/40 10.4/8.9
Reb/40 13.2/12.5
Def Rtg 80.3/86.1
Starts 0/27
FG% 57.1%/53.1%
PER 36.8/27.1
Demetre 2022/2023
Minutes 147/457
Pts/40 14.7/11.5
3p% 33.3%/33%
Def Rtg 86.5/91
PER 16.0/14.3
Bosgana 2022/2023
Minutes 73/250
Pts/40 8.8/16.8
Def Rtg 84.1/82.8
PER 6.1/24
3P Made 0/17 (32.1%)
Here's my thoughts:
Prechtel. It wasn't just that Prechtel was playing less. In the time she had she was far less effective than she had been. Her 3pt % was noticeably worse. She went from a "sharpshooter" to below average. Perhaps it was because the 3 point line was moved from 20'-9" to 22'-1 3/4" last season, or perhaps it was because our offense was less effective and she had fewer non-contested 3s. I assume it was more the former, because last season she actually shot only 27.9% on 3's.
Iriafen and Demetre. Both declined in bigger roles. Both had their moments so I think they still have a lot of upside. I'm glad Demetre's 3pt % didn't decline.
Bosgana. Took full advantage of her minutes and was a completely different player this season (much more effective). However, she still only played 250 minutes total. She's young (younger than some of our frosh). I'm hoping for a breakout year for her next season.
By the way, despite perceptions, Brink didn't really improve this season:
Brink 2022/2023
Pts/40 24.6/24.3
TO/40 3.0/3.8
Off Rtg 117.3/116.7
Def Rtg 72.5/72.5
PER 39.8/39.1
FG% 55.6%/48.6%
3pt% 35.5%/21.3%
RE: A Few Thoughts - Langdude - 03-22-2023
Count me among those who expected big things from Iriafen this year. I had pegged her as the next great Stanford player. I don't think the fact that she did not live up to (at least my) expectations this year as the only reason the team ultimately underperformed. There were others. Some coaching issues. Haley's (again, my opinion) inconsistencies (especially in big games), guard play, turnovers, lack of players who can create their own shot, etc. I don't think defense (largely because of Brink) was ever the issue, which shows that the girls were working hard.
It seems like SWBB has had trouble getting over the hump as far as winning natties since the early 90s; lots of tourneys, lots of high seeds, not a lot of titles. Having said that, I also realize that I have been ridiculously spoiled by Stanford women's basketball in that they are always competitive, always one of the top teams in the country, and always represent the school well.
-m.
RE: A Few Thoughts - cardcrimson - 03-22-2023
(03-20-2023, 05:17 PM)BostonCard Wrote: The board (collectively) is disappointed, frustrated and upset. I don't think finger pointing is all that constructive either, but for some it can help them grieve the loss. As I am sometimes reminded, what's the point of a fan message board if not to enable hyperbolic catastrophizing from people who care much more than is reasonable?
BC
Wonderfully put. Here's a suggestion:
Replace "More Signal Less Noise" with "Enabling hyperbolic catastrophizing from people who care much more than is reasonable"
It's beautiful and very apropos. . . .
RE: A Few Thoughts - PVTree - 03-22-2023
(03-22-2023, 12:24 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(03-20-2023, 05:17 PM)BostonCard Wrote: The board (collectively) is disappointed, frustrated and upset. I don't think finger pointing is all that constructive either, but for some it can help them grieve the loss. As I am sometimes reminded, what's the point of a fan message board if not to enable hyperbolic catastrophizing from people who care much more than is reasonable?
BC
Wonderfully put. Here's a suggestion:
Replace "More Signal Less Noise" with "Enabling hyperbolic catastrophizing from people who much more than is reasonable"
It's beautiful and very apropos. . . .
I think that's a long-winded way of saying fanatic. That's why I have my descriptor as "Stanford Fanatic".
I literally am suffering for days when a Stanford team I get fully invested in on any given year is eliminated earlier than I expected. This is true for this year's WBB team.
RE: A Few Thoughts - qwerty49 - 03-22-2023
(03-20-2023, 04:20 PM)chimera Wrote: Season is done, sadly. For better or worse, sports seasons are ephemeral, win it all or lose early. Next game, next season is always coming fast. We've had several posts that make the case that Tara is and has been a lousy coach. That sort of post doesn't allow for reasonable discussion about her strengths and weaknesses as a coach. I mean, what can you say in response? Whatever you think of her decisions this season (there is a lot to chew on there), it is simply impossible to be a lousy coach and go to as many Final Fours and win as many championships as Tara has. The last two seasons before this one were champions and F4. This is not ancient history. It's really hard to discuss the coaching when a few posters make generalizations like Tara is terrible. What can the rest of us say? Usually disagree and get called homers or something. Not productive, not constructive. Specifics are in order and not the "she always" or "she never" kind. Always and never are rare. Shades of gray, perhaps, instead? That is if people ant a discussion vs want to rant because they don't like Tara. Ranting is your right but it won't bring forth constructive criticism.
I was going to post more about the offense, but I feel that is tapped out as a topic at this point. Instead I am going to wonder about a few things. I miss the old days when we had post-game events after many games where we fans could ask Tara questions like why did she change the offense, what is working, what is not, candid thoughts about officiating and the state of the game, etc. We used to get 20-30 minutes of that after some games. Some of the angst and maybe even anger on the board might have been alleviated if we were able to get answers straight from the horse's mouth.
So I wonder-
What happened with Iriafen? She is clearly very talented. She started most of the games and played well early in the season. Around the time she was replaced for a few games by Emma-Nnopu something went awry in her game and she never got back to her level of play from earlier in the season. She had not gotten near her ceiling but she was progressing up the learning curve. Brink got moved to the 4 to make room for Kiki at the 5 so the thought was that Iriafen would blossom and become a force. What went wrong there?
What happened with all of our sophs? Usually by the end of someone's sophomore year, we can see who is going to be a star, who is going to be a mainstay in the rotation. Not always, as some players are late bloomers in their college careers (McCall, Ruef, etc., etc.), but usually. None of our sophs really got going consistently, though they did have their moments. This was a crazy season and a difficult one, so maybe the old saw that frosh to soph is the biggest jump in performance doesn't apply this time. Still and all, I hoped for more from Iriafen, Demetre and Bosgana. Maybe the offense, which was designed around Brink and Jones and Jump sucked the air out of the room in a sense, did not allow for the growth of the younger players? This is a key question going into next season. These players will be juniors. We need them to be impact players.
What will the coaches do with the offense next season? Losing Jones is a very big loss. We also lose the post depth from Belibi and Prechtel, which should not be as big a deal with Betts coming along, Brink doing her thing as a senior, and Iriafen getting back into form (knock wood). I never assume that freshmen will play a lot early so mostly the returning players will be the ones the offense has to suit. I did not like the offense we ended up using. It never gelled. The screening never looked great. It was too slow. Too much staring down a post hoping to make an entry pass while the whole offense stalled. More of the same next season? Changed to what, if not? And oh yeah, for the posters who claim we don't have guards who can drive - where exactly in this offense could they go? On almost every possession, Brink or Betts or some post was trying to post up, usually with multiple defenders in the area waiting to double team our post. There wasn't exactly a ton of room in there to drive. I do think we needed more drives (and that players like Nivar and Bosgana could be good at it), but the offense was not exactly conducive, was it? Sagging defenses mean fewer driving lanes. We need a more aggressive offense, more driving lanes, more drive and dish, just generally more movement and better passing generally. A lot was not working.
How will the posts be utilized? Brink looked very good as a 4 early on except she lost her three point shot, which she needs for next year, or at least a consistent mid-range jumper. I would assume Tara needs to find a way to play Betts and Brink together and keep Iriafen in there with good minutes. Demetre might be more of a strict 4 next season, which might help her since she would not have to defend on the perimeter as much. She could make a nice stretch 4. If Bonnie Samuelson could do it, so can Demetre. I'd expect Betts, Brink, Iriafen and Demetre are the 4/5 group (ignoring incoming frosh for now).
How long will Tara continue? She will be 70 this year I believe. Coaching is an intense, difficult job. She can't go forever. For those who want her gone, be careful what you wish for. As we see with other sports and other teams in WCBB who have had a lot of talent over the years but can't quite put it all together, winning is hard and winning consistently as Stanford has under Tara is insanely hard. There is no guarantee anyone else will do anything as well - recruit, X's and O's, anything. When a season like this feels like a failure and fans are cranky two years removed from a championship, you know you have it good. It's nice to be able to complain about a season all but a very few teams would kill to have.
How will the incoming frosh look? We have what should be a great group coming in. Will any of them bust out early? The Funky four is an anomaly because it is rare that a class like that features players who all were important contributors. Usually half or a third of a class like that ends up never really making the rotation. Yes, Prechtel got very little run this season, but that was because we were so stacked inside, not because she wasn't and isn't a capable player.
OK, done wondering. Next season should be interesting. Sometime you lose a player like Jones who can dominate a team with her game and her personality and a team needs a season or two to get back on track. Other times, while you lose a star and ostensibly become weaker, the change allows others to step up, blossom, whatever you want to call it, and a team becomes better in a sense, because the contributions are more spread out. Not knocking Jones, she's been fantastic, but hoping the void she leaves opens up the floor to gains by so many other players the team thrives. That happened when Nicole Powell graduated. Of course the other thing that happened was Candice Wiggins arrived. I don't know if let's say Ogden is the next Wiggins (in impact, not in style of play necessarily), but we can hope.
Excellent post, chimera. I always look forward to hearing your thoughts.
As I noted elsewhere, there seem to be some clear opportunities for individual development over the off-season. I do hope that Tara re-establishes some dialogue with the fan base as I think it would cut down on a lot of speculation that currently occurs in a vacuum.
RE: A Few Thoughts - BillBradley - 03-22-2023
(03-22-2023, 11:48 AM)OCcardinal Wrote:I think Brink was way better. You didn't include some pretty important stats like rebounds, blocks, assists, FT%, fouls, minutes,...
By the way, despite perceptions, Brink didn't really improve this season:
Brink 2022/2023
Pts/40 24.6/24.3
TO/40 3.0/3.8
Off Rtg 117.3/116.7
Def Rtg 72.5/72.5
PER 39.8/39.1
FG% 55.6%/48.6%
3pt% 35.5%/21.3%
RE: A Few Thoughts - Maple Leaf - 03-22-2023
(03-20-2023, 04:20 PM)chimera Wrote: Season is done, sadly. For better or worse, sports seasons are ephemeral, win it all or lose early. Next game, next season is always coming fast. We've had several posts that make the case that Tara is and has been a lousy coach. That sort of post doesn't allow for reasonable discussion about her strengths and weaknesses as a coach. I mean, what can you say in response? Whatever you think of her decisions this season (there is a lot to chew on there), it is simply impossible to be a lousy coach and go to as many Final Fours and win as many championships as Tara has. The last two seasons before this one were champions and F4. This is not ancient history. It's really hard to discuss the coaching when a few posters make generalizations like Tara is terrible. What can the rest of us say? Usually disagree and get called homers or something. Not productive, not constructive. Specifics are in order and not the "she always" or "she never" kind. Always and never are rare. Shades of gray, perhaps, instead? That is if people ant a discussion vs want to rant because they don't like Tara. Ranting is your right but it won't bring forth constructive criticism.
I was going to post more about the offense, but I feel that is tapped out as a topic at this point. Instead I am going to wonder about a few things. I miss the old days when we had post-game events after many games where we fans could ask Tara questions like why did she change the offense, what is working, what is not, candid thoughts about officiating and the state of the game, etc. We used to get 20-30 minutes of that after some games. Some of the angst and maybe even anger on the board might have been alleviated if we were able to get answers straight from the horse's mouth.
So I wonder-
What happened with Iriafen? She is clearly very talented. She started most of the games and played well early in the season. Around the time she was replaced for a few games by Emma-Nnopu something went awry in her game and she never got back to her level of play from earlier in the season. She had not gotten near her ceiling but she was progressing up the learning curve. Brink got moved to the 4 to make room for Kiki at the 5 so the thought was that Iriafen would blossom and become a force. What went wrong there?
What happened with all of our sophs? Usually by the end of someone's sophomore year, we can see who is going to be a star, who is going to be a mainstay in the rotation. Not always, as some players are late bloomers in their college careers (McCall, Ruef, etc., etc.), but usually. None of our sophs really got going consistently, though they did have their moments. This was a crazy season and a difficult one, so maybe the old saw that frosh to soph is the biggest jump in performance doesn't apply this time. Still and all, I hoped for more from Iriafen, Demetre and Bosgana. Maybe the offense, which was designed around Brink and Jones and Jump sucked the air out of the room in a sense, did not allow for the growth of the younger players? This is a key question going into next season. These players will be juniors. We need them to be impact players.
What will the coaches do with the offense next season? Losing Jones is a very big loss. We also lose the post depth from Belibi and Prechtel, which should not be as big a deal with Betts coming along, Brink doing her thing as a senior, and Iriafen getting back into form (knock wood). I never assume that freshmen will play a lot early so mostly the returning players will be the ones the offense has to suit. I did not like the offense we ended up using. It never gelled. The screening never looked great. It was too slow. Too much staring down a post hoping to make an entry pass while the whole offense stalled. More of the same next season? Changed to what, if not? And oh yeah, for the posters who claim we don't have guards who can drive - where exactly in this offense could they go? On almost every possession, Brink or Betts or some post was trying to post up, usually with multiple defenders in the area waiting to double team our post. There wasn't exactly a ton of room in there to drive. I do think we needed more drives (and that players like Nivar and Bosgana could be good at it), but the offense was not exactly conducive, was it? Sagging defenses mean fewer driving lanes. We need a more aggressive offense, more driving lanes, more drive and dish, just generally more movement and better passing generally. A lot was not working.
How will the posts be utilized? Brink looked very good as a 4 early on except she lost her three point shot, which she needs for next year, or at least a consistent mid-range jumper. I would assume Tara needs to find a way to play Betts and Brink together and keep Iriafen in there with good minutes. Demetre might be more of a strict 4 next season, which might help her since she would not have to defend on the perimeter as much. She could make a nice stretch 4. If Bonnie Samuelson could do it, so can Demetre. I'd expect Betts, Brink, Iriafen and Demetre are the 4/5 group (ignoring incoming frosh for now).
How long will Tara continue? She will be 70 this year I believe. Coaching is an intense, difficult job. She can't go forever. For those who want her gone, be careful what you wish for. As we see with other sports and other teams in WCBB who have had a lot of talent over the years but can't quite put it all together, winning is hard and winning consistently as Stanford has under Tara is insanely hard. There is no guarantee anyone else will do anything as well - recruit, X's and O's, anything. When a season like this feels like a failure and fans are cranky two years removed from a championship, you know you have it good. It's nice to be able to complain about a season all but a very few teams would kill to have.
How will the incoming frosh look? We have what should be a great group coming in. Will any of them bust out early? The Funky four is an anomaly because it is rare that a class like that features players who all were important contributors. Usually half or a third of a class like that ends up never really making the rotation. Yes, Prechtel got very little run this season, but that was because we were so stacked inside, not because she wasn't and isn't a capable player.
OK, done wondering. Next season should be interesting. Sometime you lose a player like Jones who can dominate a team with her game and her personality and a team needs a season or two to get back on track. Other times, while you lose a star and ostensibly become weaker, the change allows others to step up, blossom, whatever you want to call it, and a team becomes better in a sense, because the contributions are more spread out. Not knocking Jones, she's been fantastic, but hoping the void she leaves opens up the floor to gains by so many other players the team thrives. That happened when Nicole Powell graduated. Of course the other thing that happened was Candice Wiggins arrived. I don't know if let's say Ogden is the next Wiggins (in impact, not in style of play necessarily), but we can hope.
Excellent post, and the point that it is hard to win and to win consistently, look at uconn with all of their advantages, the last time they won the national championship was in 2011. Basketball has always been a game where guard play is the deciding factor when teams get into the post season.
RE: A Few Thoughts - BillBradley - 03-22-2023
(03-20-2023, 04:20 PM)chimera Wrote: What happened with all of our sophs? Usually by the end of someone's sophomore year, we can see who is going to be a star, who is going to be a mainstay in the rotation. Not always, as some players are late bloomers in their college careers (McCall, Ruef, etc., etc.), but usually. None of our sophs really got going consistently, though they did have their moments. This was a crazy season and a difficult one, so maybe the old saw that frosh to soph is the biggest jump in performance doesn't apply this time. Still and all, I hoped for more from Iriafen, Demetre and Bosgana. Maybe the offense, which was designed around Brink and Jones and Jump sucked the air out of the room in a sense, did not allow for the growth of the younger players? This is a key question going into next season. These players will be juniors. We need them to be impact players.
I have the same question about Kiki. She started off great but then her play really diminished. She had more opportunity early because Fran was hurt and Betts didn't seem quite ready. Those 2 started to play more and from there maybe Kiki just lost her confidence. Or maybe other factors - these players all have a lot going on in their lives.
Once Tara made the decision that Haley wasn't going to play point and that we were going to play with 2 bigs, there just wasn't much room for Demetre or Bosgana. Three spots were pretty much locked: Cam, Haley, and Hannah. The other was filled by a big. The other was filled by a point guard. I was an advocate of playing Demetre instead of the other big, but it didn't happen much. I also would have liked to see Bosgana for Hannah, especially in games where Hannah wasn't getting shots. Regardless, I think all 3 could have great seasons next year. Really hoping they have good attitudes and get to work in the off season. I am a bit concerned about Kiki. Hope she really sticks with it - I really like her and she has pro-level talent.
Sidenote: Many didn't like Haley at point (myself included), but in hindsight it may have been the best lineup for our team. It would've opened up a spot for Demetre/Bosgana who are both scorers, plus Haley would have been off the wing = stretch the floor for the bigs and maybe even more opps for Hannah.
RE: A Few Thoughts - Jskass - 03-22-2023
Thanks to everyone for great posts and yes, I guess trusting Tarais the best route. With that said, a few points:
1. Feel badly about Iriafen. I was excited about her improvement at the 3 on 3 USA tournament. Maybe a nagging injury?
2.felt like Bosgana helped every time she played but tough to get PT. Now, if Nivar could handle PG…
3.Not as excited now about going to Seattle. It will be great but the nagging voice inside me wishes Stanford were there — maybe East Coast next year.
RE: A Few Thoughts - 81alum - 03-22-2023
I still think Iriafen has a lot of potential. The question is whether Iriafen becomes the next Erica McCall or the next Maya Dodson. I think Iriafen has more talent than either of them, actually, but McCall worked hard to improve and broke out in her junior year, mainly because she developed an excellent mid range jumper that helped stretch out the floor. She even shot 39% from three--though not very often--during her junior year, which was her best season. From sophomore year to junior year McCall tripled her time, tripled her points, diversified her game, dramatically improved her free throw shooting, and doubled her rebounds
Dodson had games where she looked Chiney-esque but never became consistent. I don't know if I remember her ever making anything but a layup. Her ppg went from 3 to 7 to 5, and then she had injury issues. When she transferred to Notre Dame she averaged 13 points and 7 rebounds but it was all because of playing time. She shot 49% which was identical or a little lower to her percentages all three years at Stanford.
Iriafen seems to me to have more the potential of McCall than of Dodson, given that she has already shown herself capable of making elbow jumpers. She could attack the basket against any defender of equal size, but if faced with a taller defender she needs to get that jumper going.
(03-20-2023, 04:20 PM)chimera Wrote: Season is done, sadly. For better or worse, sports seasons are ephemeral, win it all or lose early. Next game, next season is always coming fast.Thank you for your experienced eye and thoughtful observations. See what all you Cardboarders out there are missing by not coming to our halftime group?!
....
I don't know if let's say Ogden is the next Wiggins (in impact, not in style of play necessarily), but we can hope.
With regard to Ogden, the more tape of her I watch, the more I think she is starter material, and that it won't take that long. Of course, I thought that about Alanna Smith and I was absolutely right--about a season and a half too early!
RE: A Few Thoughts - chimera - 03-22-2023
Iriafen already has a nice mid-range shot and she moves very well for 6'3". She could play some 4 next season. I would bet Demetre plays the 4 and hardly plays elsewhere. I'm not sure how good her rebounding is, but she has the size to defend there, she wouldn't have to chase smaller players around (she was fouling a lot late in the season), and she could stretch the floor with her shooting from there. She also has a sweet mid-range step-back shot that she showed early but never used much after that. I assume it just was not part of the offense. It could have helped.
Thx for all the stats OCcardinal. I'm not totally sure what to make of them. Did those players stagnate a bit with more playing time or was the offense just such a struggle nobody looked that great?
RE: A Few Thoughts - jk1926 - 03-22-2023
(03-22-2023, 01:13 PM)Maple Leaf Wrote: Excellent post, and the point that it is hard to win and to win consistently, look at uconn with all of their advantages, the last time they won the national championship was in 2011. Basketball has always been a game where guard play is the deciding factor when teams get into the post season.
Correction: UConn WBB won the NCAA Championship all four years Brianna Stewart played for the Huskies: 2013 to 2016. UConn has made it to the Final Four for the last 14 years from 2008. But true that UConn has not won the Championship the last five years (Covid led to the tournament cancellation in 2020).
Also true that winning as consistently as Stanford has is an exceptional accomplishment most programs would love to achieve.
RE: A Few Thoughts - acerep - 03-22-2023
(03-22-2023, 03:49 PM)jk1926 Wrote:(03-22-2023, 01:13 PM)Maple Leaf Wrote: Excellent post, and the point that it is hard to win and to win consistently, look at uconn with all of their advantages, the last time they won the national championship was in 2011. Basketball has always been a game where guard play is the deciding factor when teams get into the post season.
Correction: UConn WBB won the NCAA Championship all four years Brianna Stewart played for the Huskies: 2013 to 2016. UConn has made it to the Final Four for the last 14 years from 2008. But true that UConn has not won the Championship the last five years (Covid led to the tournament cancellation in 2020).
Also true that winning as consistently as Stanford has is an exceptional accomplishment most programs would love to achieve.
Thanks to Chimera for a thoughtful, insightful post.
My report on the weekend's games is on the Fast Break Club site, www.stanfordfbc.org.
RE: A Few Thoughts - stopandpop - 03-22-2023
Some very thoughtful posts and interesting ideas. Even after painful losses to UCLA in the PAC-12 semi's and then to Mississippi in the NCAA 2nd. round, it might be easy to forget we're only 2 years removed from our National Championship season and only 1 year removed from our Final Four. How many Div. 1 teams would love to have had a 29-6 record?
Having said that, I have questions about how best we can move forward.
1) For better or worse, the physicality of the game has dramatically increased in recent years. Our worst match-ups last season came when our opponents were more physical than us, especially Mississippi. Our current team is talented, but inherently not especially physical. What options does Tara and the staff have to address this challenge next season? I don't believe you can teach/train someone to be more physical. Does that mean we recruit more physical players? I'm not sure it's that easy. One must be physical but also talented and/or athletic.
2) Ironically, despite having had two All-Americans in the starting lineup, we struggled offensively. We had such a deep bench and Tara kept changing the lineup throughout the season, looking for the best combinations to ignite the offense, but as several of you have noted, playing time from that deep bench became less and so did productivity. I'm wondering, could the struggle to score be less about who was playing with whom and more about the type of offense we were running, that so many of our opponents knew so well? Given the talent we do have, what would be a more effective offensive style? Does Tara go back to the Princeton, the Triangle? or something else? Would a high/low post game (Brink and Betts, or even Brink and Kiki) with scoring options in the corners and more driving and shooting from our guards have merit? I never thought we really took advantage of our size last season.
3) Watching the Tournament, it seems as though every successful team has at least one dynamic guard who is quick, athletic and can create their own shots. Some teams have 2 or more. The subject of recruiting elite guards has been a discussion point on the Cardboard for quite some time; especially the 'ones that got away'. But we have played teams in recent years, including mid-majors, who have on their roster very talented guards; maybe not elite, but darn good. I will argue that this was our #1 problem. To address it, will Tara (now) be more receptive in using the portal to acquire a high-level, experienced guard who could make that difference in our offense?
I have greatly enjoyed viewing many of your posts that have offered interesting insights and facilitated good constructive dialogue. I have tried occasionally to offer my own thoughts- perhaps some that could have been better worded or thought-out. Thanks for letting me participate. It's been fun and I can't wait to see what develops over the Spring and Summer.
RE: A Few Thoughts - fullmetal - 03-22-2023
(03-22-2023, 06:19 PM)stopandpop Wrote: 1) For better or worse, the physicality of the game has dramatically increased in recent years. Our worst match-ups last season came when our opponents were more physical than us, especially Mississippi. Our current team is talented, but inherently not especially physical. What options does Tara and the staff have to address this challenge next season? I don't believe you can teach/train someone to be more physical. Does that mean we recruit more physical players? I'm not sure it's that easy. One must be physical but also talented and/or athletic.
I can't remember, but is the women's team still recruiting men for its practice team players?
RE: A Few Thoughts - CompSci87 - 03-22-2023
(03-22-2023, 06:28 PM)fullmetal Wrote:(03-22-2023, 06:19 PM)stopandpop Wrote: 1) For better or worse, the physicality of the game has dramatically increased in recent years. Our worst match-ups last season came when our opponents were more physical than us, especially Mississippi. Our current team is talented, but inherently not especially physical. What options does Tara and the staff have to address this challenge next season? I don't believe you can teach/train someone to be more physical. Does that mean we recruit more physical players? I'm not sure it's that easy. One must be physical but also talented and/or athletic.
I can't remember, but is the women's team still recruiting men for its practice team players?
Yes. They even recognize the male practice players who graduate at Senior Night.
RE: A Few Thoughts - jacket3ree - 03-22-2023
I must admit that I don't follow WBB too closely. I did watch Stanford beat UCLA toward the end of the season, and thought then they might not be going very deep this year. It was hard to watch. I'm not sure at all what that says about UCLA, since that was just one game and I didn't watch UCLA in any other game or Stanford again until flipping over during a break in one of the MBB games. I can't say I was surprised they were struggling.
Basketball is still guard-driven, even if the guards are now more "position less" in today's game. Stanford lacked something there. Guards are not just for the perimeter - didn't see much slash and dish action or spreading out the floor. Lots of congestion and tough passes in to Brink. Do they run anything through a high post? Didn't really see much of that, but to be fair, my sum total of viewing recently can be counted in minutes.
Stanford WBB is a victim of its own success. I read they have been to 15 Final Fours. The "expected" number of titles if the Final Four teams are roughly equal is 3.75, so Stanford is no more than one title behind expectation, unless one thinks they should have been in more Final Fours.
Curious as to what all of UCONN's advantages are. Great coach for sure. Close to ESPN world HQ, so probably on TV a lot. Middle Connecticut is nice enough I suppose, but having cut through a bunch of times I'm not sure it is close enough to NYC or Boston to want to go to school there. Didn't they create all their advantages from scratch?
Don't forget that La Tech, ODU, and maybe some others were once powers, so it can all go away. Might as well enjoy being bummed about an R2 exit while you can. Thinking back to my ultimate frustration with Montgomery's constant early flameouts to lower seeds, time sure took care of that frustration....