Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - Printable Version
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Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - Griffins78 - 10-08-2020
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1314377607379640320?s=21
Militia Members Plotted To Kidnap Michigan Gov. Whitmer, FBI Says
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - Genuine Realist - 10-08-2020
(10-08-2020, 07:32 PM)Griffins78 Wrote: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1314377607379640320?s=21Trump's usual abysmal timing and tactlessness.
Militia Members Plotted To Kidnap Michigan Gov. Whitmer, FBI Says
But he's likely right. Whitmer has behaved with outrageous high-handedness, a textbook lesson in the corruption of power.
A critical, but eminently sane, discussion of her overreach.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/noah-rothman/the-lockdown-the-law-and-liberty/
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - Snorlax94 - 10-08-2020
(10-08-2020, 08:35 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote:Embarassing(10-08-2020, 07:32 PM)Griffins78 Wrote: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1314377607379640320?s=21Trump's usual abysmal timing and tactlessness.
Militia Members Plotted To Kidnap Michigan Gov. Whitmer, FBI Says
But he's likely right...
It’s sad this has to be said, but no disagreements or perceived mistakes by a democratically elected leader justify violence or assassination. Ever. There should be no sympathizing with or justifying these statements.
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - 82 Card - 10-08-2020
(10-08-2020, 08:35 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote: A critical, but eminently sane, discussion of neocon dissertation on her overreach.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/noah-rothman/the-lockdown-the-law-and-liberty/
Fixed that for ya.
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - dabigv13 - 10-08-2020
(10-08-2020, 08:35 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote:(10-08-2020, 07:32 PM)Griffins78 Wrote: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1314377607379640320?s=21Trump's usual abysmal timing and tactlessness.
Militia Members Plotted To Kidnap Michigan Gov. Whitmer, FBI Says
But he's likely right. Whitmer has behaved with outrageous high-handedness, a textbook lesson in the corruption of power.
A critical, but eminently sane, discussion of her overreach.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/noah-rothman/the-lockdown-the-law-and-liberty/
Gross.
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - fullmetal - 10-08-2020
What a slavish libertarian idealist article.
Quote:But freedoms, once relinquished, are not easily reacquired. State and federal legislators have spent decades divesting themselves of their authority. Perhaps its time they started taking it back.
What, you think legislatures have ever functioned effectively during a crisis to deal with all the situations that an executive handles? In the same paragraph, the author notes:
Quote:Legislative lethargy is a force multiplier in a crisis, compounding a natural disaster by adding a civic dimension to it.
Also:
Quote:He added that it is precisely in times of profound urgency that challenges to American liberties arise, but an emergency does not justify the abrogation of constitutional due process rights.
Nothing about these rights are due process rights, if I'm read the article correctly. Does this author not know what words he's using?
Also noted in the article: the emergency powers act that Whitmer used was *on the books.* It was a law in good standing up until the state supreme court ruled against it with a 5-4 partisan split. Why fault the governor for relying on a law that was in perfectly good standing until the court decided it wasn't constitutional?
Wisconsin is feeling the effects of rapid spread again. I wonder if that's due, at least in part, to this:
Quote:As early as May, the Wisconsin Supreme Court determined that Gov. Tony Evers’s restrictions on travel, the operation of nonessential businesses, and even movement outside the home infringed upon basic American civil liberties.
"bUt MaH fReEdOmS!" --the article, basically
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - Genuine Realist - 10-08-2020
(10-08-2020, 08:54 PM)Snorlax94 Wrote:Of course not, unless they're on the other side ideologically, in which it's perfectly all right to hope they are afflicted with some dreadful disease.(10-08-2020, 08:35 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote:Embarassing(10-08-2020, 07:32 PM)Griffins78 Wrote: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1314377607379640320?s=21Trump's usual abysmal timing and tactlessness.
Militia Members Plotted To Kidnap Michigan Gov. Whitmer, FBI Says
But he's likely right...
It’s sad this has to be said, but no disagreements or perceived mistakes by a democratically elected leader justify violence or assassination. Ever. There should be no sympathizing with or justifying these statements.
Also, condemnation of the illegal acts does not mean Whitmer's conduct in office is suddenly immune from criticism. Her regime has been arbitrary and extremely high handed. No one should be planning murder or kidnap. Being the target of such crimes does not suddenly transform her into a good governor.
(10-08-2020, 10:12 PM)fullmetal Wrote: What a slavish libertarian idealist article.
Quote:But freedoms, once relinquished, are not easily reacquired. State and federal legislators have spent decades divesting themselves of their authority. Perhaps its time they started taking it back.
What, you think legislatures have ever functioned effectively during a crisis to deal with all the situations that an executive handles? In the same paragraph, the author notes:
Quote:Legislative lethargy is a force multiplier in a crisis, compounding a natural disaster by adding a civic dimension to it.
Also:
Quote:He added that it is precisely in times of profound urgency that challenges to American liberties arise, but an emergency does not justify the abrogation of constitutional due process rights.
Nothing about these rights are due process rights, if I'm read the article correctly. Does this author not know what words he's using?
Also noted in the article: the emergency powers act that Whitmer used was *on the books.* It was a law in good standing up until the state supreme court ruled against it with a 5-4 partisan split. Why fault the governor for relying on a law that was in perfectly good standing until the court decided it wasn't constitutional?
Wisconsin is feeling the effects of rapid spread again. I wonder if that's due, at least in part, to this:
Quote:As early as May, the Wisconsin Supreme Court determined that Gov. Tony Evers’s restrictions on travel, the operation of nonessential businesses, and even movement outside the home infringed upon basic American civil liberties.
"bUt MaH fReEdOmS!" --the article, basically
Wisconsin feeling the effects of rapid spread again? In October, from an order granted in May? Pretty big causal net.
Like it or not, you have to strike a balance between the basic civil liberties of the society, and response to the pandemic.
BTW, not that Trump ever thought of doing it, but if he had ordered - or tried to order - a national lockdown, the same elements in the media who are now worried about the fantasy that he'll barricade himself in the White House, would have infallibly decried the move as the first step to the creation of a fascist State. Recollections of the Reichstag Fire would have dripped smoothly off the pen.
(10-08-2020, 09:10 PM)82 Card Wrote:Gosh, all the fashionable swear words in one place.(10-08-2020, 08:35 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote: A critical, but eminently sane, discussion of neocon dissertation on her overreach.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/noah-rothman/the-lockdown-the-law-and-liberty/
Fixed that for ya.
Neocon applied to an issue of domestic policy? Well, once you've got a good catchword . . .
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - 82 Card - 10-09-2020
(10-08-2020, 10:17 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote:
(10-08-2020, 09:10 PM)82 Card Wrote:(10-08-2020, 08:35 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote: A critical, but eminently sane, discussion of neocon dissertation on her overreach.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/noah-rothman/the-lockdown-the-law-and-liberty/
Fixed that for ya.
Gosh, all the fashionable swear words in one place.
Neocon applied to an issue of domestic policy? Well, once you've got a good catchword . . .
Yes indeed. Neo-conservatism is not specific to foreign policy and is not a swear word. Maybe that's how you use it but that's not how it was used in poly sci class.
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - Genuine Realist - 10-09-2020
(10-09-2020, 12:13 AM)82 Card Wrote:Well, in philosophy class, we sorta looked at the context in which a word is used - Wittgenstein's language game, dontcha know?(10-08-2020, 10:17 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote:
(10-08-2020, 09:10 PM)82 Card Wrote:(10-08-2020, 08:35 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote: A critical, but eminently sane, discussion of neocon dissertation on her overreach.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/noah-rothman/the-lockdown-the-law-and-liberty/
Fixed that for ya.
Gosh, all the fashionable swear words in one place.
Neocon applied to an issue of domestic policy? Well, once you've got a good catchword . . .
Yes indeed. Neo-conservatism is not specific to foreign policy and is not a swear word. Maybe that's how you use it but that's not how it was used in poly sci class.
And you didn't exactly use it as an endearment, did you, me boyo?
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - 82 Card - 10-09-2020
(10-09-2020, 12:30 AM)Genuine Realist Wrote:(10-09-2020, 12:13 AM)82 Card Wrote:Well, in philosophy class, we sorta looked at the context in which a word is used - Wittgenstein's language game, dontcha know?(10-08-2020, 10:17 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote:
(10-08-2020, 09:10 PM)82 Card Wrote:(10-08-2020, 08:35 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote: A critical, but eminently sane, discussion of neocon dissertation on her overreach.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/noah-rothman/the-lockdown-the-law-and-liberty/
Fixed that for ya.
Gosh, all the fashionable swear words in one place.
Neocon applied to an issue of domestic policy? Well, once you've got a good catchword . . .
Yes indeed. Neo-conservatism is not specific to foreign policy and is not a swear word. Maybe that's how you use it but that's not how it was used in poly sci class.
And you didn't exactly use it as an endearment, did you, me boyo?
Boy? <plonk>
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - OutsiderFan - 10-09-2020
The notion that a national lockdown would have been seen as a step toward martial law by the same people decrying no national mandates and the fact everything was left to the states with no federal coordination, is fiction.
Those who have decried no national coordinated policy, are science, fact, and evidence-based. I read the CDC's influenza pandemic guidelines in February and was well aware of the national coordination that would be needed to effectively mitigate pandemic. I'm not naive enough to claim some people wouldn't claim the POTUS was engaging in tyranny. There are people dumb enough to believe nobody ever landed on the moon. But in the main, everyone would have embraced a nationally coordinated response.
The greatest tragedy of this unfortunate chapter in our history, aside from the damage itself, is the fact it was transparently obvious to anyone who bothered to inform themselves, that there was going to be great pain experienced no matter the actions we took. Heads of government needed to be honest and real about this reality and make clear everyone would experience some loss but we are doing our best to balance the damage so we don't have catastrophic failure in one place that makes things worse than what we experience trying our best. We didn't try our best and you see the results. The 56k+ new cases Oct. 8 was the highest reported since August 14. Florida is doing about 1/2 the testing CA is per capita, Texas is testing less than a month ago, and 22 states had at least 1,000 new cases yesterday. Michigan is #39th in cases per capita and has the 10th most population. Whoever is managing Michigan is doing a very good job protecting its citizens.
The right wing terrorist groups who plotted against Whitmer were fed a tapestry of bullshit that if only there were no lockdowns, jobs and businesses wouldn't have been lost. Nobody bothered to tell them that if nothing was done, those jobs and businesses would have been lost anyway, and more people would have died, as the healthcare system would have been overwhelmed. Eventually, a lockdown would have been enforced because there would be no way of stopping out of control virus spread otherwise. These criminals acted as though Governor was purposely trying to take their rights away, when reality is any head of government enforcing restrictions is doing so only to protect people to the very best of their ability.
This is in sharp contrast to a POTUS who doesn't GAF about anyone but himself, and who willingly risks the lives of others for his own perceived benefit.
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - BostonCard - 10-09-2020
(10-08-2020, 08:35 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote:(10-08-2020, 07:32 PM)Griffins78 Wrote: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1314377607379640320?s=21
Militia Members Plotted To Kidnap Michigan Gov. Whitmer, FBI Says
Trump's usual abysmal timing and tactlessness.
But he's likely right. Whitmer has behaved with outrageous high-handedness, a textbook lesson in the corruption of power.
A critical, but eminently sane, discussion of her overreach.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/noah-rothman/the-lockdown-the-law-and-liberty/
Sorry GR, but in no universe does governmental overreach by Whitmer or any other government official merit a plot to kidnap or kill her. Whitmer is up for re-election in two years, and the people of Michigan can vote her out. For particularly egregious violations of "corruption of power", the Michigan legislature can impeach the governor and the people can submit a recall petition.
Good or bad, accurate or not, it isn't just tasteless, it is incredibly inappropriate for the President or anyone else to make a post tying her actions as government and the plot.
BC
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - Genuine Realist - 10-09-2020
(10-09-2020, 04:35 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: The notion that a national lockdown would have been seen as a step toward martial law by the same people decrying no national mandates and the fact everything was left to the states with no federal coordination, is fiction.You don't think the proclamation of a national lockdown or similar national mandate wouldn't have been seen as a power grab and the Beginning of the End by the same faction who opined that the 2016 election would be ou last Presidential election? That are worrried that Trump will barricade himself in the White House?
Those who have decried no national coordinated policy, are science, fact, and evidence-based. I read the CDC's influenza pandemic guidelines in February and was well aware of the national coordination that would be needed to effectively mitigate pandemic. I'm not naive enough to claim some people wouldn't claim the POTUS was engaging in tyranny. There are people dumb enough to believe nobody ever landed on the moon. But in the main, everyone would have embraced a nationally coordinated response.
The greatest tragedy of this unfortunate chapter in our history, aside from the damage itself, is the fact it was transparently obvious to anyone who bothered to inform themselves, that there was going to be great pain experienced no matter the actions we took. Heads of government needed to be honest and real about this reality and make clear everyone would experience some loss but we are doing our best to balance the damage so we don't have catastrophic failure in one place that makes things worse than what we experience trying our best. We didn't try our best and you see the results. The 56k+ new cases Oct. 8 was the highest reported since August 14. Florida is doing about 1/2 the testing CA is per capita, Texas is testing less than a month ago, and 22 states had at least 1,000 new cases yesterday. Michigan is #39th in cases per capita and has the 10th most population. Whoever is managing Michigan is doing a very good job protecting its citizens.
The right wing terrorist groups who plotted against Whitmer were fed a tapestry of bullshit that if only there were no lockdowns, jobs and businesses wouldn't have been lost. Nobody bothered to tell them that if nothing was done, those jobs and businesses would have been lost anyway, and more people would have died, as the healthcare system would have been overwhelmed. Eventually, a lockdown would have been enforced because there would be no way of stopping out of control virus spread otherwise. These criminals acted as though Governor was purposely trying to take their rights away, when reality is any head of government enforcing restrictions is doing so only to protect people to the very best of their ability.
This is in sharp contrast to a POTUS who doesn't GAF about anyone but himself, and who willingly risks the lives of others for his own perceived benefit.
Been asleep in the Catskills these last four years?
(10-09-2020, 08:29 AM)BostonCard Wrote:Of course it does not. Trump's tweets are inane. Read my first post.(10-08-2020, 08:35 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote:(10-08-2020, 07:32 PM)Griffins78 Wrote: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1314377607379640320?s=21
Militia Members Plotted To Kidnap Michigan Gov. Whitmer, FBI Says
Trump's usual abysmal timing and tactlessness.
But he's likely right. Whitmer has behaved with outrageous high-handedness, a textbook lesson in the corruption of power.
A critical, but eminently sane, discussion of her overreach.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/noah-rothman/the-lockdown-the-law-and-liberty/
Sorry GR, but in no universe does governmental overreach by Whitmer or any other government official merit a plot to kidnap or kill her. Whitmer is up for re-election in two years, and the people of Michigan can vote her out. For particularly egregious violations of "corruption of power", the Michigan legislature can impeach the governor and the people can submit a recall petition.
Good or bad, accurate or not, it isn't just tasteless, it is incredibly inappropriate for the President or anyone else to make a post tying her actions as government and the plot.
BC
The article I posted, however, was written about a week ago. Gretchen Whitmer has infuriated a great many people. That six of them reacted by planning a contemptible crime does not mean that her actions were not infuriating. She's not suddenly immune from criticism.
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - BostonCard - 10-09-2020
My point is that you are blaming the victim here. Whether Whitmer overstepped her bounds is completely irrelevant to what happened. That is for the legislature, the courts, or future elections to decide.
BC
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - Genuine Realist - 10-09-2020
(10-09-2020, 09:15 AM)BostonCard Wrote: My point is that you are blaming the victim here. Whether Whitmer overstepped her bounds is completely irrelevant to what happened. That is for the legislature, the courts, or future elections to decide.I'm not commenting on the crime, which Trump should not do.
BC
I don't know how 'blame the victim' figures into criticism of an elected official. The bottom line is that Whitmer has frustrated and infuriated hundreds of thousands of Michigan citizens. Six of them turn out to be sociopaths who are rightfully arrested and subject to the criminal process. That doesn't mean the frustration of the others doesn't have a rational basis.
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - BostonCard - 10-09-2020
Hundreds of thousands of frustrated Michigan citizens have not engaged in a plot to kidnap or kill the governor. Her actions as governor are no more relevant to the plot than the actions of Ronald Reagan were to John Hinckley Jr.'s assassination attempt. Attempts to tie them together, as Trump did, are not just inappropriate, they are dangerous. They suggest that violence is a reasonable outcome to policy disagreements or even of governmental overreach.
If the criticism of Witmer were in the context of a recall ballot or a legislative attempt to impeach her, then I have no issue. But context matters, and this is not just poor taste on the part of the President, and tying the two together is blaming the victim by suggesting that her actions as governor led to the plot. That's what I mean about blaming the victim.
BC
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - oregontim - 10-09-2020
Context matters. Today is the day after the plot was publicly announced. The day after Trump chose to criticize the governor instead of the conspirators. Posting criticisms of the governor today is going to be read by all as either choosing sides — siding with Trump — or clueless and tone deaf.
Besides which, here's the take on bias of the source:
![[Image: media-bias-commentary.jpg]](https://timberry.com/wp-content/uploads/media-bias-commentary.jpg)
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - Genuine Realist - 10-09-2020
(10-09-2020, 09:46 AM)BostonCard Wrote: Hundreds of thousands of frustrated Michigan citizens have not engaged in a plot to kidnap or kill the governor. Her actions as governor are no more relevant to the plot than the actions of Ronald Reagan were to John Hinckley Jr.'s assassination attempt. Attempts to tie them together, as Trump did, are not just inappropriate, they are dangerous. They suggest that violence is a reasonable outcome to policy disagreements or even of governmental overreach.For the third time, I'm not trying to justify Trump's tweets. Not only are they untimely, but - as often happens - they reverse the polarity, so that Whitmer suddenly gets the benefit of undifferentiated approval of her conduct in office.
If the criticism of Witmer were in the context of a recall ballot or a legislative attempt to impeach her, then I have no issue. But context matters, and this is not just poor taste on the part of the President, and tying the two together is blaming the victim by suggesting that her actions as governor led to the plot. That's what I mean about blaming the victim.
BC
But in the same way that conduct is irrelevant to the criminality at issue, the criminality does not beat on the larger issues of Whitmer's administration. In fact, there is even a vague gullt by association aspect to the matter. Because a group of sociopathic crackpots are infuriated by the policies, it is complied that all of the opposition consists of sociopathic crackpots. But that isn't so.
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - old spanish trail - 10-09-2020
(10-08-2020, 08:35 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote:(10-08-2020, 07:32 PM)Griffins78 Wrote: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1314377607379640320?s=21Trump's usual abysmal timing and tactlessness.
Militia Members Plotted To Kidnap Michigan Gov. Whitmer, FBI Says
But he's likely right. Whitmer has behaved with outrageous high-handedness, a textbook lesson in the corruption of power.
A critical, but eminently sane, discussion of her overreach.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/noah-rothman/the-lockdown-the-law-and-liberty/
Baloney, GR. You are going down Commentary Mag's rabbit hole.
RE: Trump blames Michigan’s Governor’s COVID-19 response for assassination attempt - Genuine Realist - 10-10-2020
(10-09-2020, 10:07 PM)old spanish trail Wrote:(10-08-2020, 08:35 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote:(10-08-2020, 07:32 PM)Griffins78 Wrote: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1314377607379640320?s=21Trump's usual abysmal timing and tactlessness.
Militia Members Plotted To Kidnap Michigan Gov. Whitmer, FBI Says
But he's likely right. Whitmer has behaved with outrageous high-handedness, a textbook lesson in the corruption of power.
A critical, but eminently sane, discussion of her overreach.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/noah-rothman/the-lockdown-the-law-and-liberty/
Baloney, GR. You are going down Commentary Mag's rabbit hole.
(10-09-2020, 10:07 PM)old spanish trail Wrote:I actually find a little rationality there. Unusual in these times.(10-08-2020, 08:35 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote:(10-08-2020, 07:32 PM)Griffins78 Wrote: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1314377607379640320?s=21Trump's usual abysmal timing and tactlessness.
Militia Members Plotted To Kidnap Michigan Gov. Whitmer, FBI Says
But he's likely right. Whitmer has behaved with outrageous high-handedness, a textbook lesson in the corruption of power.
A critical, but eminently sane, discussion of her overreach.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/noah-rothman/the-lockdown-the-law-and-liberty/
Baloney, GR. You are going down Commentary Mag's rabbit hole.