Here we go again... - Printable Version
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Here we go again... - BostonCard - 08-17-2020
https://www.axios.com/trump-covid-oleandrin-9896f570-6cd8-4919-af3a-65ebad113d41.html
What I don't get is why Trump isn't just touting dexamethasone. At the very least dexamethasone is proven to reduce mortality in severe COVID-19, by quite a fair bit. I have no idea whether oleander is effective or not, and if data comes along later that shows it's effective then I will be delighted that we have something else to improve outcomes of the disease. But there is no reason to tout oleander or anything else without evidence. Moreover, the President touting it is actually counterproductive, because now evaluating the science will all be wrapped up in the politics of it instead of the merits of the data to support or refute it.
BC
RE: Here we go again... - chrisk - 08-17-2020
(08-17-2020, 01:10 PM)BostonCard Wrote: https://www.axios.com/trump-covid-oleandrin-9896f570-6cd8-4919-af3a-65ebad113d41.html
What I don't get is why Trump isn't just touting dexamethasone. At the very least dexamethasone is proven to reduce mortality in severe COVID-19, by quite a fair bit. I have no idea whether oleander is effective or not, and if data comes along later that shows it's effective then I will be delighted that we have something else to improve outcomes of the disease. But there is no reason to tout oleander or anything else without evidence. Moreover, the President touting it is actually counterproductive, because now evaluating the science will all be wrapped up in the politics of it instead of the merits of the data to support or refute it.
BC
He is doing a solid for his big supporter Mike Lindell, the My Pillow Man and big Fox advertiser.
RE: Here we go again... - Goose - 08-17-2020
(08-17-2020, 01:10 PM)BostonCard Wrote: https://www.axios.com/trump-covid-oleandrin-9896f570-6cd8-4919-af3a-65ebad113d41.htmlIt is all the same to this POTUS. Conjecturing that one might cure COVID-19 by drinking bleach is hard to top, and this latest effort doesn't even come close. :) Actually, I think Trump likes these things because he believes that if it works he will get the credit (and he will for sure take the credit if available). Unfortunately, he hasn't had enough shots on goal to stumble into something. I predict he will keep trying.
What I don't get is why Trump isn't just touting dexamethasone. At the very least dexamethasone is proven to reduce mortality in severe COVID-19, by quite a fair bit. I have no idea whether oleander is effective or not, and if data comes along later that shows it's effective then I will be delighted that we have something else to improve outcomes of the disease. But there is no reason to tout oleander or anything else without evidence. Moreover, the President touting it is actually counterproductive, because now evaluating the science will all be wrapped up in the politics of it instead of the merits of the data to support or refute it.
BC
RE: Here we go again... - 82 Card - 08-17-2020
There's probably people going to their garden to grind up some leaves right now. While they're there, might as well get some foxglove also.
RE: Here we go again... - DocSavage87 - 08-17-2020
(08-17-2020, 02:25 PM)82 Card Wrote: There's probably people going to their garden to grind up some leaves right now. While their there, might as well get some foxglove also.
We may laugh, but there was an uptick in disinfectant-related injuries following his famous talk about that new approach. I heard that QAnon has grown to several million followers. If so many people can believe there's vast liberal conspiracy supporting international child sex trafficking, I think a little disinformation on a miracle cure is more believable.
It's not surprising one of his supporters has a financial stake in the company manufacturing the miracle cure.
RE: Here we go again... - oregontim - 08-17-2020
Heartbreaking. If we'd dealt as a nation as well as the average European nation, our death toll would have been at least 100K lives lower so far. And we'd be looking to an end to the lockdowns. If only. No president in my lifetime (I'm 72) would have handled this crisis so bizarrely. And it goes on and on. He and his handlers could turn it around in a day ... it would improve their election standing ... but no. The all-about-me world of Donald Trump.
RE: Here we go again... - BostonCard - 08-17-2020
(08-17-2020, 04:29 PM)oregontim Wrote: Heartbreaking. If we'd dealt as a nation as well as the average European nation, our death toll would have been at least 100K lives lower so far. And we'd be looking to an end to the lockdowns. If only. No president in my lifetime (I'm 72) would have handled this crisis so bizarrely. And it goes on and on. He and his handlers could turn it around in a day ... it would improve their election standing ... but no. The all-about-me world of Donald Trump.
I don't think that's right; the European average is brought up by Italy, Spain, and France (who were hit early in the pandemic before anyone could prepare), and the UK, which delayed going into a lockdown thinking it could do a Sweden-like herd immunity play. I think the death rate in the EU as a whole is about the same as the UK, though their trajectory is better.
BC
RE: Here we go again... - 82 Card - 08-17-2020
(08-17-2020, 06:42 PM)BostonCard Wrote:Corrected version: I originally posted computations using woldometers.info data for europe showing that US had about 84K more deaths that if would have at the European rate. On further reflection, I withdraw the original computations. The worldometers.info numbers for Europe include non-EU countries such as Russia and Belarus with what I would consider highly suspect data.(08-17-2020, 04:29 PM)oregontim Wrote: Heartbreaking. If we'd dealt as a nation as well as the average European nation, our death toll would have been at least 100K lives lower so far. And we'd be looking to an end to the lockdowns. If only. No president in my lifetime (I'm 72) would have handled this crisis so bizarrely. And it goes on and on. He and his handlers could turn it around in a day ... it would improve their election standing ... but no. The all-about-me world of Donald Trump.
I don't think that's right; the European average is brought up by Italy, Spain, and France (who were hit early in the pandemic before anyone could prepare), and the UK, which delayed going into a lockdown thinking it could do a Sweden-like herd immunity play. I think the death rate in the EU as a whole is about the same as the UK, though their trajectory is better.
BC
Using the official EU COVID death toll of 179,660 and EU population of 446 million gives a death rate of 403/million. At that rate, US would have 132,304 deaths. The actual US death toll is 173,716, which is 41,412 higher. That only looks half as bad so far. However, US numbers are still growing at a faster clip than EU.
RE: Here we go again... - oregontim - 08-17-2020
(08-17-2020, 06:42 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(08-17-2020, 04:29 PM)oregontim Wrote: Heartbreaking. If we'd dealt as a nation as well as the average European nation, our death toll would have been at least 100K lives lower so far. And we'd be looking to an end to the lockdowns. If only. No president in my lifetime (I'm 72) would have handled this crisis so bizarrely. And it goes on and on. He and his handlers could turn it around in a day ... it would improve their election standing ... but no. The all-about-me world of Donald Trump.
I don't think that's right; the European average is brought up by Italy, Spain, and France (who were hit early in the pandemic before anyone could prepare), and the UK, which delayed going into a lockdown thinking it could do a Sweden-like herd immunity play. I think the death rate in the EU as a whole is about the same as the UK, though their trajectory is better.
BC
I stand corrected. You're right. As of Aug. 17 we're at 519 per million. Belgium, UK, Spain, Italy, and Sweden are worse than us; all others in Europe are better. I chose the wrong comparison, bt I still think my point is valid. Our rate is more than double that of Canada, about 32 times worse than Australia. This is the wealthiest nation in the world. We have the best or close to it in doctors and medical research.
But this has come up before. Others on this forum are convinced that we are as a citizenry so much less "compliant" than Canada and Australia that this disaster would have happened even under other leadership. We can only guess on that one. It's hypothetical. But we can be pretty sure that our president made this all much worse. IMO.
RE: Here we go again... - Goose - 08-18-2020
(08-17-2020, 10:13 PM)oregontim Wrote: But this has come up before. Others on this forum are convinced that we are as a citizenry so much less "compliant" than Canada and Australia that this disaster would have happened even under other leadership. We can only guess on that one. It's hypothetical. But we can be pretty sure that our president made this all much worse. IMO.I would agree with your opinion that our president made it worse. How much worse is in most ways also hypothetical IMO. What I think we can say for sure is that the president did not present a picture of a competent leader. Disagreeing with his own experts is a horrible message to send to the population. Under other presidents, that wouldn't have happened. That is not because the president always agreed with the experts, but rather because they would mutually agree upon and stay on message. While that would make us all feel much better (i.e. we are competently led), it may or may not result in markedly better outcomes.
If POTUS was more competent his "point of view" (whatever it actually is) might have prevailed to a larger extent than it has. Thank goodness that was not the case. If the POTUS was a stronger leader in a particular direction, would the state governors have behaved differently? That is hypothetical too, but IMO it would not have changed their actions significantly. Serious mistakes have been made (and continue to be made) by governors of both parties. Both Cuomo and Newsom have done things that I believe were errors, and certainly they weren't following Trump. Abbott and DeSantis may have been, but there is plenty of evidence these guys were "that way" without any help. Ducey supposedly saw himself as the "next Trump", so there may be some traction there. OTOH if that's how you see yourself, things may not go well anyway.
RE: Here we go again... - terry - 08-18-2020
(08-18-2020, 09:01 AM)Goose Wrote: I would agree with your opinion that our president made it worse. How much worse is in most ways also hypothetical IMO. What I think we can say for sure is that the president did not present a picture of a competent leader. Disagreeing with his own experts is a horrible message to send to the population. Under other presidents, that wouldn't have happened. That is not because the president always agreed with the experts, but rather because they would mutually agree upon and stay on message. While that would make us all feel much better (i.e. we are competently led), it may or may not result in markedly better outcomes.
If POTUS was more competent his "point of view" (whatever it actually is) might have prevailed to a larger extent than it has. Thank goodness that was not the case. If the POTUS was a stronger leader in a particular direction, would the state governors have behaved differently? That is hypothetical too, but IMO it would not have changed their actions significantly. Serious mistakes have been made (and continue to be made) by governors of both parties. Both Cuomo and Newsom have done things that I believe were errors, and certainly they weren't following Trump. Abbott and DeSantis may have been, but there is plenty of evidence these guys were "that way" without any help. Ducey supposedly saw himself as the "next Trump", so there may be some traction there. OTOH if that's how you see yourself, things may not go well anyway.
I believe Trump has quite a lot of influence. Trump has almost total control over the Republican party and he has tremendous influence over as much as 40% of the public. Trump has forced Republican officials to bend to his will on issue after issue, and he has turned the opinions of his voting base in whatever direction he chooses. Anyone in the party who tries cross Trump pays the consequences. Few are willing to try.
If Trump had taken the pandemic seriously from the outset instead of denying and minimizing it, if he had supported tough lockdowns instead of actively undermining lockdowns, if he had supported mask-wearing instead of characterizing mask-wearing as a token of opposition to him, and so forth, then I think almost all of his party and his base would have followed him. Republican governors would have acted more quickly and more aggressively. Vocal GOP minorities in blue states would not have applied so much pressure on Democratic governors to re-open so quickly. I think we all would be better off.
RE: Here we go again... - Mick - 08-18-2020
(08-17-2020, 10:00 PM)82 Card Wrote:(08-17-2020, 06:42 PM)BostonCard Wrote:Corrected version: I originally posted computations using woldometers.info data for europe showing that US had about 84K more deaths that if would have at the European rate. On further reflection, I withdraw the original computations. The worldometers.info numbers for Europe include non-EU countries such as Russia and Belarus with what I would consider highly suspect data.(08-17-2020, 04:29 PM)oregontim Wrote: Heartbreaking. If we'd dealt as a nation as well as the average European nation, our death toll would have been at least 100K lives lower so far. And we'd be looking to an end to the lockdowns. If only. No president in my lifetime (I'm 72) would have handled this crisis so bizarrely. And it goes on and on. He and his handlers could turn it around in a day ... it would improve their election standing ... but no. The all-about-me world of Donald Trump.
I don't think that's right; the European average is brought up by Italy, Spain, and France (who were hit early in the pandemic before anyone could prepare), and the UK, which delayed going into a lockdown thinking it could do a Sweden-like herd immunity play. I think the death rate in the EU as a whole is about the same as the UK, though their trajectory is better.
BC
Using the official EU COVID death toll of 179,660 and EU population of 446 million gives a death rate of 403/million. At that rate, US would have 132,304 deaths. The actual US death toll is 173,716, which is 41,412 higher. That only looks half as bad so far. However, US numbers are still growing at a faster clip than EU.
I suspect comorbidity factors come into play with respect to COVID deaths. WHO estimates that 23% of European men are obese and 20% of European women are obese, while NHANES indicates that 39.6% of American adults are obese. 48% of all adult Americans have cardiovascular disease, while 19% of all Europeans hav CVD. I suspect that may affect the number of deaths. We're not nearly as healthy as Europeans, on average.
RE: Here we go again... - BostonCard - 08-19-2020
(08-17-2020, 02:25 PM)82 Card Wrote: There's probably people going to their garden to grind up some leaves right now. While they're there, might as well get some foxglove also.
I didn't realize it when you mentioned it, but it turns out that oleandrin is a cardiac glycoside, related to the cardiac drug digoxin. Digoxin was first derived from the foxglove plant.
BC
RE: Here we go again... - 82 Card - 08-19-2020
(08-19-2020, 02:06 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(08-17-2020, 02:25 PM)82 Card Wrote: There's probably people going to their garden to grind up some leaves right now. While they're there, might as well get some foxglove also.
I didn't realize it when you mentioned it, but it turns out that oleandrin is a cardiac glycoside, related to the cardiac drug digoxin. Digoxin was first derived from the foxglove plant.
BC
Since this forum is public, I should have elaborated in the original post. Thanks for fixing that. I've watched too many Murder She Wrote episodes over the years. A few have had the murderer growing foxgloves in the yard. I was aware of the connection between oleanders and foxgloves because I researched toxic plants when we first moved into our house. Oleanders are common around here and I didn't want to poison our menagerie or the wildlife. I suspect that the deer carcass that I had to dispose of last year was the result of oleander bushes two houses down the street. I am concerned that people will try to do self-help and poison themselves.
RE: Here we go again... - BostonCard - 08-20-2020
https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2020/08/19/us-army-halted-tests-on-oleandrin-a-drug-touted-to-trump-as-covid-19-cure-by-mypillow-ceo-lindell/#752924ac3bb6
US Army halts its trials on Oleandrin.
I have an idea, maybe they can make a GoFundMe page and bilk thousands of true believers into funding a non-existent project. I'll let the Post Office Inspectors office know.
BC
RE: Here we go again... - dabigv13 - 08-20-2020
Why did they even start trials on this? Was it at direction of Trump or his appointees? Goose will tell me soon this is just all how a normal functioning democracy is supposed to work, and the fact the Army stopped testing the snake oil is evidence things are working just fine.
This MF Trump needs to go to jail just like all of his associates. They're all corrupt grifters, and I cannot wait for all the dirt to spill out once he leaves office.
RE: Here we go again... - Goose - 08-20-2020
(08-20-2020, 10:32 AM)dabigv13 Wrote: Why did they even start trials on this? Was it at direction of Trump or his appointees? Goose will tell me soon this is just all how a normal functioning democracy is supposed to work, and the fact the Army stopped testing the snake oil is evidence things are working just fine.
Dabigv13, I won't let you down :). Well not much, at least. In a "normally functioning democracy" where the president isn't an idiot, what would happen is something like this. The president gets an email/call from some friend of his saying "Have I got a drug for you". The president hands it off to one of his aids saying "Get our people in touch with this guy's people and have them look into this". The aid does, nature takes it's course, maybe they do some in vitro testing, the drug shows no promise, and that is the end. If a reporter asks the president about this drug because the president's friend made a big deal of it, the president says "We are looking into everything that possibly could help. I will let you know if and when we find something that does".
That is how it should work. One may say the president is showing favoritism toward his friend by getting the drug looked at when otherwise it probably wouldn't have been so examined. That is how things work however. Lot's of good ideas come from people you know. Sometimes those ideas actually benefit the people who had them as well as everybody else. Presidents have to use their own judgements about what ideas to dismiss out of hand and what ideas to pursue to the next level. If the POTUS pursues ideas based on personal gain at the expense of the public interest, that is corrupt If the POTUS pursues ideas based on political gain at the expense of the public interest, that is corrupt. If the POTUS pursues ideas due to incorrect evaluation of those ideas at the expense of the public interest, that is stupid.
This POTUS is IMHO for certain stupid. He also has such poor impulse control that he insists on saying what he hopes is true rather than what is known to be true. That exposes his stupidity in ways that are so breathtaking that one almost can't believe it. It makes one think there must be some corruption involved. Otherwise, why would anybody say something so dumb? I submit that his conjecture that one should drink bleach, something in which he has no financial interest, demonstrates he may actually be that stupid.
Quote:This MF Trump needs to go to jail just like all of his associates. They're all corrupt grifters, and I cannot wait for all the dirt to spill out once he leaves office.I too think their is plenty of dirt to come out. I don't think it is going to turn out to be related to "big cons" Trump pulled off. I think most of the dirt is going to be "small time", stupid venal things that were crimes of opportunity, not of complex design. The one area I really, really, hope is pursued vigorously now and after Trump leaves office is the investigation of Trump's business going on in New York state. I think only there will it be possible to find real crimes that can send him to jail. Lots of things he has done as president are very stupid. Unfortunately, I think we will find most of these things are also not illegal or can't be tied to Trump personally with criminal liability attached.
RE: Here we go again... - Mick - 08-20-2020
(08-20-2020, 10:32 AM)dabigv13 Wrote: Why did they even start trials on this? Was it at direction of Trump or his appointees? Goose will tell me soon this is just all how a normal functioning democracy is supposed to work, and the fact the Army stopped testing the snake oil is evidence things are working just fine.
This MF Trump needs to go to jail just like all of his associates. They're all corrupt grifters, and I cannot wait for all the dirt to spill out once he leaves office.
Waiting for the Terry rule claim. Oh right, it's anti-Trump (crickets).
RE: Here we go again... - oregontim - 08-20-2020
(08-20-2020, 12:26 PM)Mick Wrote:(08-20-2020, 10:32 AM)dabigv13 Wrote: Why did they even start trials on this? Was it at direction of Trump or his appointees? Goose will tell me soon this is just all how a normal functioning democracy is supposed to work, and the fact the Army stopped testing the snake oil is evidence things are working just fine.
This MF Trump needs to go to jail just like all of his associates. They're all corrupt grifters, and I cannot wait for all the dirt to spill out once he leaves office.
Waiting for the Terry rule claim. Oh right, it's anti-Trump (crickets).
It's really hard to pull the anti-Trump out of any real discussion about Covid-19 in the USA. So much of what we're dealing with involves public safety, public response, masks, tests, tracing, rules on sheltering and quarantine, and public sector leadership. Trump is right there in the middle of the Covid-related problems we discuss. The plain truth is an indictment of that man and his enablers. It keeps coming up because he's still making it worse every day.
RE: Here we go again... - Mick - 08-20-2020
(08-20-2020, 12:43 PM)oregontim Wrote:(08-20-2020, 12:26 PM)Mick Wrote:(08-20-2020, 10:32 AM)dabigv13 Wrote: Why did they even start trials on this? Was it at direction of Trump or his appointees? Goose will tell me soon this is just all how a normal functioning democracy is supposed to work, and the fact the Army stopped testing the snake oil is evidence things are working just fine.
This MF Trump needs to go to jail just like all of his associates. They're all corrupt grifters, and I cannot wait for all the dirt to spill out once he leaves office.
Waiting for the Terry rule claim. Oh right, it's anti-Trump (crickets).
It's really hard to pull the anti-Trump out of any real discussion about Covid-19 in the USA. So much of what we're dealing with involves public safety, public response, masks, tests, tracing, rules on sheltering and quarantine, and public sector leadership. Trump is right there in the middle of the Covid-related problems we discuss. The plain truth is an indictment of that man and his enablers. It keeps coming up because he's still making it worse every day.
I know, I was being facetious. This isn't so much of an anti-politics board as it is a pro-pileon board. Has its uses, but my recommendation would be forget about the Terry rule or having an anti-politics stance when partisan politics simply bleeds through it. It's like saying "stop biting" to a two month old Labrador puppy. And yes, I have one. I know whereof I speak... ;)