82 summer campers get covid at one camp

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82 summer campers get covid at one camp - burger - 07-10-2020

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/keeping-covid-19-outside-summer-camps-near-impossible-challenge-n1232916

tl,dr: summer camp opens. 82 campers and staff test positive. summer camp closes.

Schools cannot be opened safely. Hopefuly all of these people will be okay because camp staffers tend to be young. School teachers not so much.

Quote:On Wednesday, parents were notified by email that one of the camps, known as K-2, was shutting down. The Stone County Health Department updated the community on Facebook: 41 campers, counselors and staff members had tested positive for COVID-19; they had come from 10 states and multiple counties in Missouri.

The Missouri Department of Health and Senior Services later updated the count to 49, according to the Springfield News-Leader. By Monday the Missouri Department of Health and Senior Services told the St. Louis Post Dispatch that the number had jumped to 76. By Monday afternoon it was 82.

RE: 82 summer campers get covid at one camp - OutsiderFan - 07-10-2020

The school across the street from me had an outdoor sports camp this week. I walked a dog through there a couple days ago. Must have been 100 kids. None wearing masks. CT has been averaging under 100 new reported cases a day this month, but that scene certainly gave me pause. I get that parents want to have their kids enjoying the outdoors, playing games and interacting with other kids, but man is it risky right now.

RE: 82 summer campers get covid at one camp - BostonCard - 07-10-2020

I would be very interested to find out what happens to these kids and counselors. How many remain asymptomatic? How many develop symptoms? Do any of them have to be hospitalized?

82 campers with a positive test is not necessarily a concern.
82 campers with a positive test and a substantial number with symptoms might be.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms and a hospitalization probably is.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms, and even one death would be catastrophic.

BC

RE: 82 summer campers get covid at one camp - Farm93 - 07-10-2020

(07-10-2020, 09:57 AM)BostonCard Wrote: I would be very interested to find out what happens to these kids and counselors. How many remain asymptomatic? How many develop symptoms? Do any of them have to be hospitalized?

82 campers with a positive test is not necessarily a concern.
82 campers with a positive test and a substantial number with symptoms might be.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms and a hospitalization probably is.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms, and even one death would be catastrophic.

BC

A death in those 82 would be bad, but there is a more likely way this becomes very problematic.
A number of the parents of the 82 become hospitalized or die.

Don't know how likely it will be for children to pass the virus to their parents in this case, but I do know the Mayor of Atlanta and her husband had an asymptomatic child before they tested positive.

I am confident her story will become the story for school districts worried about COVID.
Family tested everyone for COVID - but it took 8 days to receive the test results.
The family tested everyone again before the first results were received.
They got the results from Test #2 first - Both parents and one child tested positive for COVID19, only dad has significant symptoms
The next day they got test results from test #1 - Only one child had COVID19 at that time.

Fast forward even now and the child remains asymptomatic. In her family's case, the child would have attended school, likely spreading the virus to many others, until her spouse displayed COVID symptoms.

So look for the Mayor of Atlanta, who is on TV a lot because she is on the VP short list, to explain how dangerous it will be for asymptomatic children to attend schools if the school rooms are packed like they were before COVID.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/atlanta-mayor-keisha-lance-bottoms-on-testing-positive-for-covid-19-and-requiring-masks-in-public/#x

Hope the 82 kids are all OK and their families successfully navigate through the stresses and challenges of having COVID in their household.

RE: 82 summer campers get covid at one camp - burger - 07-10-2020

(07-10-2020, 09:57 AM)BostonCard Wrote: I would be very interested to find out what happens to these kids and counselors. How many remain asymptomatic? How many develop symptoms? Do any of them have to be hospitalized?

82 campers with a positive test is not necessarily a concern.
82 campers with a positive test and a substantial number with symptoms might be.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms and a hospitalization probably is.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms, and even one death would be catastrophic.

BC

You're missing the point. It's not the outcomes for these individual campers that matter. It's the idea that kids can spread the virus among themselves in group settings. Perhaps classrooms are not as dangerous as summer camps, but I think we've gotten a false impression about how easily the virus spreads among children. Schools have mostly been closed where there are large outbreaks. Of course you don't get much transmission when hardly any students, teachers, or staffers have the virus. I guess we'll find out very soon what things look like when schools reopen amid a major outbreak--Florida, leading the way as usual.

And let's not forget that something like a quarter of teachers are over 50. Their outcomes when they get the virus will be far worse than the kids'. Ignoring that is cruel.

RE: 82 summer campers get covid at one camp - chrisk - 07-10-2020

(07-10-2020, 10:28 AM)burger Wrote:
(07-10-2020, 09:57 AM)BostonCard Wrote: I would be very interested to find out what happens to these kids and counselors. How many remain asymptomatic? How many develop symptoms? Do any of them have to be hospitalized?

82 campers with a positive test is not necessarily a concern.
82 campers with a positive test and a substantial number with symptoms might be.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms and a hospitalization probably is.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms, and even one death would be catastrophic.

BC

You're missing the point. It's not the outcomes for these individual campers that matter. It's the idea that kids can spread the virus among themselves in group settings. Perhaps classrooms are not as dangerous as summer camps, but I think we've gotten a false impression about how easily the virus spreads among children. Schools have mostly been closed where there are large outbreaks. Of course you don't get much transmission when hardly any students, teachers, or staffers have the virus. I guess we'll find out very soon what things look like when schools reopen amid a major outbreak--Florida, leading the way as usual.

And let's not forget that something like a quarter of teachers are over 50. Their outcomes when they get the virus will be far worse than the kids'. Ignoring that is cruel.

Camps and schools need to have an enforcement officer? Did that camp do robust testing and have an officer enforcing the mask and distancing rules?

RE: 82 summer campers get covid at one camp - JustAnotherFan - 07-10-2020

(07-10-2020, 11:08 AM)chrisk Wrote:
(07-10-2020, 10:28 AM)burger Wrote:
(07-10-2020, 09:57 AM)BostonCard Wrote: I would be very interested to find out what happens to these kids and counselors. How many remain asymptomatic? How many develop symptoms? Do any of them have to be hospitalized?

82 campers with a positive test is not necessarily a concern.
82 campers with a positive test and a substantial number with symptoms might be.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms and a hospitalization probably is.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms, and even one death would be catastrophic.

BC

You're missing the point. It's not the outcomes for these individual campers that matter. It's the idea that kids can spread the virus among themselves in group settings. Perhaps classrooms are not as dangerous as summer camps, but I think we've gotten a false impression about how easily the virus spreads among children. Schools have mostly been closed where there are large outbreaks. Of course you don't get much transmission when hardly any students, teachers, or staffers have the virus. I guess we'll find out very soon what things look like when schools reopen amid a major outbreak--Florida, leading the way as usual.

And let's not forget that something like a quarter of teachers are over 50. Their outcomes when they get the virus will be far worse than the kids'. Ignoring that is cruel.

Camps and schools need to have an enforcement officer? Did that camp do robust testing and have an officer enforcing the mask and distancing rules?

No. The last thing schools need is more policing. Schools need to stop playing around with bringing kids and teachers back. They need to operate fully outside.

RE: 82 summer campers get covid at one camp - M T - 07-10-2020

(07-10-2020, 09:57 AM)BostonCard Wrote: I would be very interested to find out what happens to these kids and counselors. How many remain asymptomatic? How many develop symptoms? Do any of them have to be hospitalized?

82 campers with a positive test is not necessarily a concern.
82 campers with a positive test and a substantial number with symptoms might be.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms and a hospitalization probably is.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms, and even one death would be catastrophic.

BC

The CDC indicates that 4.4 per 100K 5-17yo have been hospitalized with COVID-19 so far. As I recently calculated from CDC numbers, there were 130 positive tests per 100K in this age group. Those numbers are probably skewed toward symptomatic cases.

That particular camp is apparently for kids 13-18. The organization had over 5000 kids in 5 camps this year. Only the one camp (K-2) was shutdown (per article on Tuesday). Their Facebook page had a posting about how another of their camps was a week of fun, dated July 8.

RE: 82 summer campers get covid at one camp - Goose - 07-10-2020

(07-10-2020, 11:24 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote: No. The last thing schools need is more policing. Schools need to stop playing around with bringing kids and teachers back. They need to operate fully outside.

They can operate any way they want, indoors or out, but it won't matter. Kids 6 to 12 years old will behave as kids. They will get together in groups that aren't 18 inches apart, let alone 6 feet apart. "Enforcement" will fail, because it can't be everywhere all the time. It may be in the parking lot before school starts, but it will happen. Since we are having trouble getting all adults who presumably fully understand the risks of their behavior to maintain social distance, how can we expect children who do not understand that to do so?

RE: 82 summer campers get covid at one camp - dabigv13 - 07-10-2020

If I had school age children, I'd want instruction to be outside at all times, under a tent I suppose. Probably only feasible in certain areas and for certain grades. Otherwise I'd keep them at home.

RE: 82 summer campers get covid at one camp - Farm93 - 07-10-2020

(07-10-2020, 11:24 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote: No. The last thing schools need is more policing. Schools need to stop playing around with bringing kids and teachers back. They need to operate fully outside.

In lots of Southern California the school parking lots have those solar panels. I would love to see kids have classes outside, but under those panels. The established pods could move inside in November when rain is added to the mix.

Most HS in the SoCal burbs also have field turf. Would wish they would use pop up tents on those pricey fields since we know they won't be using them for sports practices.

Just hate the idea of 30 or 40 kids in a 40' X 40' room or online only formats when most CA schools have acres of outdoor space available. Audio would be tricky, but if those city tours can get it done there is a way forward with either headphones for everyone or a amplifier for the teacher.

The key to outdoor formats would be to still keep the kids 6+' apart. I suspect camps may have struggled with the distancing aspect as inevitably when a ball is loose or there is a break in the activities the kids will tend to cluster.

RE: 82 summer campers get covid at one camp - M T - 07-10-2020

(07-10-2020, 12:00 PM)Farm93 Wrote: Audio would be tricky, but if those city tours can get it done there is a way forward with either headphones for everyone or a amplifier for the teacher.

(AIUI, the camp with the 82 cases is a week-long (sleep-in) camp. I think I saw their cases went home to 10 states.)

Earlier (a month ago) I posted a picture of standardized tests being done spread out across a soccer field.

As for classes, the audio would overlap from the different classes, but something like Zoom should allow each student to have good audio, and to minimize any audio from neighboring classes. It could be used on laptops, tablets, or smart phones.
But, you aren't going to have your chemistry lab, computer lab, cooking, etc. outdoors because the equipment isn't appropriate outdoors.

We in California are so spoiled by our weather, we think this is possible. Everywhere will be a problem if the sun is shining (threat of skin cancer, sun burns, ...) I can tell you that it isn't possible in the south due to the frequency of storms (rain, wind, and lightning) and/or the heat & cold, and it isn't possible in the north because of the cold temperatures and snow. Once you have a roof overhead (solar panels as you mentioned) and partitions, you're getting back to being indoors.

Instead, I could see being indoors, but on an exterior wall, with large fans that replace the air at a measured pace. I'm pretty sure you could avoid rain getting in, but the problems will be controlling the temperature (and, to a lesser extent, the humidity). Wow, it is beginning to sound like my elementary school, built post-WWII (E/W single-floor rows of 1x6 classrooms, 15' high. Grass area between rows. N wall was all window. S wall was outdoor covered walkway (no windows). Several large (3-4') fans. Heating units overhead. No A/C until probably the late 60s (in coastal Texas).

But, getting that in place quickly can't happen. Budgets are already set. Supplies would be limited. Buildings can't be redesigned.

RE: 82 summer campers get covid at one camp - JustAnotherFan - 07-11-2020

(07-10-2020, 02:49 PM)M T Wrote:
(07-10-2020, 12:00 PM)Farm93 Wrote: Audio would be tricky, but if those city tours can get it done there is a way forward with either headphones for everyone or a amplifier for the teacher.
(AIUI, the camp with the 82 cases is a week-long (sleep-in) camp. I think I saw their cases went home to 10 states.)

Earlier (a month ago) I posted a picture of standardized tests being done spread out across a soccer field.

As for classes, the audio would overlap from the different classes, but something like Zoom should allow each student to have good audio, and to minimize any audio from neighboring classes. It could be used on laptops, tablets, or smart phones.
But, you aren't going to have your chemistry lab, computer lab, cooking, etc. outdoors because the equipment isn't appropriate outdoors.

We in California are so spoiled by our weather, we think this is possible. Everywhere will be a problem if the sun is shining (threat of skin cancer, sun burns, ...) I can tell you that it isn't possible in the south due to the frequency of storms (rain, wind, and lightning) and/or the heat & cold, and it isn't possible in the north because of the cold temperatures and snow. Once you have a roof overhead (solar panels as you mentioned) and partitions, you're getting back to being indoors.

Instead, I could see being indoors, but on an exterior wall, with large fans that replace the air at a measured pace. I'm pretty sure you could avoid rain getting in, but the problems will be controlling the temperature (and, to a lesser extent, the humidity). Wow, it is beginning to sound like my elementary school, built post-WWII (E/W single-floor rows of 1x6 classrooms, 15' high. Grass area between rows. N wall was all window. S wall was outdoor covered walkway (no windows). Several large (3-4') fans. Heating units overhead. No A/C until probably the late 60s (in coastal Texas).

But, getting that in place quickly can't happen. Budgets are already set. Supplies would be limited. Buildings can't be redesigned.

Meanwhile in Central Texas we are going to be spending the year outside, even in the summer heat: http://www.abrome.com/blog/2020/6/10/abrome-releases-contingency-plans-to-reopen-amid-covid-19. But they won't be sitting at desks in the middle of a field.

It's going to be challenging at times given the weather, but not impossible. Better than spreading Covid-19.

RE: 82 summer campers get covid at one camp - lex24 - 07-11-2020

And yet, one of the lead stories in today’s East Bay Times (SJMerc) is that of a study indicating that “research suggests youths unlikely to transmit virus”. The “evidence suggests that children are less likely to become infected, less likely to develop severe disease and less likely to transmit the virus to other children and adults”. The study was co-authored by William Razika of the University of Vermont School of Medicine.

Yet another study. Yet another conclusion. Yet more questions.

RE: 82 summer campers get covid at one camp - akiddoc - 07-11-2020

(07-11-2020, 09:02 AM)lex24 Wrote: And yet, one of the lead stories in today’s East Bay Times (SJMerc) is that of a study indicating that “research suggests youths unlikely to transmit virus”. The “evidence suggests that children are less likely to become infected, less likely to develop severe disease and less likely to transmit the virus to other children and adults”. The study was co-authored by William Razika of the University of Vermont School of Medicine.

Yet another study. Yet another conclusion. Yet more questions.

Those are the same conclusions that came out of a Danish study.

The fact is that it is no more dangerous for your kid to get Covid-19 than to get Influenza. At worst it is the same magnitude of risk. The risk is to the people around them.

lex24 - lex24 - 07-11-2020

(07-10-2020, 09:57 AM)BostonCard Wrote: I would be very interested to find out what happens to these kids and counselors. How many remain asymptomatic? How many develop symptoms? Do any of them have to be hospitalized?

82 campers with a positive test is not necessarily a concern.
82 campers with a positive test and a substantial number with symptoms might be.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms and a hospitalization probably is.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms, and even one death would be catastrophic.

BC

Yes. And if there is a catastrophe we will hear of it. So let’s hope and pray that we hear nothing more. For that will mean there were no bad outcomes.

One other question I’d like to know - how many kids, staff etc were at the camp over the time of the transmissions.

RE: lex24 - akiddoc - 07-12-2020

(07-11-2020, 11:32 PM)lex24 Wrote:
(07-10-2020, 09:57 AM)BostonCard Wrote: I would be very interested to find out what happens to these kids and counselors. How many remain asymptomatic? How many develop symptoms? Do any of them have to be hospitalized?

82 campers with a positive test is not necessarily a concern.
82 campers with a positive test and a substantial number with symptoms might be.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms and a hospitalization probably is.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms, and even one death would be catastrophic.

BC

Yes. And if there is a catastrophe we will hear of it. So let’s hope and pray that we hear nothing more. For that will mean there were no bad outcomes.

One other question I’d like to know - how many kids, staff etc were at the camp over the time of the transmissions.

Children's Hospital Oakland has now tested 4020 patients for a variety of reasons. 133 have been positive. No one actually admitted for being sick. No ICU admissions. No deaths.

RE: lex24 - Farm93 - 07-12-2020

(07-12-2020, 12:25 AM)akiddoc Wrote: Children's Hospital Oakland has now tested 4020 patients for a variety of reasons. 133 have been positive. No one actually admitted for being sick. No ICU admissions. No deaths.

The empirical evidence to date with children is not very helpful. Most parents, even those in the USA, have been working diligently to keep their kids away from others.
My children (14 & 16) have not been inside of any restaurant or shop in the last 4 months. A few MD & DDS visits, but nothing else. I don't think that is uncommon.
My children do not have any risk factors, but if my children had asthma, diabetes or other ailments you better believe my children would not have even done the MD & DDS stuff unless it was absolutely critical.

The August experience will be a very different deal as kids crowd into indoor areas multiple days per week.

Teacher risk is the bigger problem for school openings. The challenge is they are not as easy replaced as a store cashier or a barrista. None of our nation's essential workers should have been tossed into the mix without PPE in March, but great care must be taken with this group because the USA doesn't have a lot of extra teachers to call up.

RE: lex24 - burger - 07-12-2020

(07-11-2020, 11:32 PM)lex24 Wrote:
(07-10-2020, 09:57 AM)BostonCard Wrote: I would be very interested to find out what happens to these kids and counselors. How many remain asymptomatic? How many develop symptoms? Do any of them have to be hospitalized?

82 campers with a positive test is not necessarily a concern.
82 campers with a positive test and a substantial number with symptoms might be.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms and a hospitalization probably is.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms, and even one death would be catastrophic.

BC

Yes. And if there is a catastrophe we will hear of it. So let’s hope and pray that we hear nothing more. For that will mean there were no bad outcomes.

One other question I’d like to know - how many kids, staff etc were at the camp over the time of the transmissions.

Lex, you seem ignorant of studies showing that kids can transmit the virus between themselves and teachers. This long New York Times article includes multiple examples where kids spread covid among themselves and to adults: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/11/health/coronavirus-schools-reopen.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Quote:But there have been school-based outbreaks in countries with higher community infection levels and countries that apparently eased safety guidelines too soon. In Israel, the virus infected more than 200 students and staff after schools reopened in early May and lifted limits on class size a few weeks later, according to a report by University of Washington researchers.
Case studies in some countries suggest differences in virus transmission in younger children compared to older children.

In one community in northern France, Crépy-en-Valois, two high school teachers became ill with Covid-19 in early February, before schools closed. Scientists from the Institut Pasteur later tested the school’s students and staff for coronavirus antibodies. They found antibodies in 38 percent of the students, 43 percent of the teachers, and 59 percent of other school staff, said Dr. Arnaud Fontanet, an epidemiologist at the institute who led the study and is a member of a committee advising the French government.
“Clearly you know that the virus circulated in the high school,” Dr. Fontanet said.

The bottom line is that, at best, the evidence on transmission in schools is inconclusive. Some of the widely cited studies, like the Irish one, are crap because of tiny sample sizes (note: actual sample size is the number infected, not the number tested). Studies like the Israeli one suggest that some schools are going to have outbreaks. I don't think any school openings have occurred in places having large outbreaks like Florida. So I guess Florida's teachers get to be guinea pigs. That's just super fair to those teachers.

(07-12-2020, 12:25 AM)akiddoc Wrote: Children's Hospital Oakland has now tested 4020 patients for a variety of reasons. 133 have been positive. No one actually admitted for being sick. No ICU admissions. No deaths.

You're arguing against a straw man. No one is saying that opening schools is a major health threat to kids. It's the teachers, staffers, and parents/other family members of those kids that we are worried about.

lex24 - lex24 - 07-12-2020

(07-12-2020, 07:13 AM)burger Wrote:
(07-11-2020, 11:32 PM)lex24 Wrote:
(07-10-2020, 09:57 AM)BostonCard Wrote: I would be very interested to find out what happens to these kids and counselors. How many remain asymptomatic? How many develop symptoms? Do any of them have to be hospitalized?

82 campers with a positive test is not necessarily a concern.
82 campers with a positive test and a substantial number with symptoms might be.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms and a hospitalization probably is.
82 campers with a positive test, a substantial number with symptoms, and even one death would be catastrophic.

BC

Yes. And if there is a catastrophe we will hear of it. So let’s hope and pray that we hear nothing more. For that will mean there were no bad outcomes.

One other question I’d like to know - how many kids, staff etc were at the camp over the time of the transmissions.

Lex, you seem ignorant of studies showing that kids can transmit the virus between themselves and teachers. This long New York Times article includes multiple examples where kids spread covid among themselves and to adults: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/11/health/coronavirus-schools-reopen.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Quote:But there have been school-based outbreaks in countries with higher community infection levels and countries that apparently eased safety guidelines too soon. In Israel, the virus infected more than 200 students and staff after schools reopened in early May and lifted limits on class size a few weeks later, according to a report by University of Washington researchers.
Case studies in some countries suggest differences in virus transmission in younger children compared to older children.

In one community in northern France, Crépy-en-Valois, two high school teachers became ill with Covid-19 in early February, before schools closed. Scientists from the Institut Pasteur later tested the school’s students and staff for coronavirus antibodies. They found antibodies in 38 percent of the students, 43 percent of the teachers, and 59 percent of other school staff, said Dr. Arnaud Fontanet, an epidemiologist at the institute who led the study and is a member of a committee advising the French government.
“Clearly you know that the virus circulated in the high school,” Dr. Fontanet said.

The bottom line is that, at best, the evidence on transmission in schools is inconclusive. Some of the widely cited studies, like the Irish one, are crap because of tiny sample sizes (note: actual sample size is the number infected, not the number tested). Studies like the Israeli one suggest that some schools are going to have outbreaks. I don't think any school openings have occurred in places having large outbreaks like Florida. So I guess Florida's teachers get to be guinea pigs. That's just super fair to those teachers.

(07-12-2020, 12:25 AM)akiddoc Wrote: Children's Hospital Oakland has now tested 4020 patients for a variety of reasons. 133 have been positive. No one actually admitted for being sick. No ICU admissions. No deaths.

You're arguing against a straw man. No one is saying that opening schools is a major health threat to kids. It's the teachers, staffers, and parents/other family members of those kids that we are worried about.

Burger, you seem ignorant to studies that indicate Covid is essentially no risk to the under 18 crowd (or no risk beyond flu) AND that kids are less likely to transmit the disease. So now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, let me suggest I’m not “ignorant” of the studies/ position you note and you are not actually “ignorant” of the studies/position I’ve advanced. We disagree. We can do that without suggesting “ignorance” of those with whom we disagree. Can’t we?

I’m not suggesting there is no risk. I’m suggesting there need to be efforts taken to balance that risk with the need for kids, especially at-risk kids to go to school. A recent NYT editorial opined that NY must find a way to reopen schools. It’s going to take some creativity. Probably money as well. But I’m confident it can be done in some fashion. Will it be “risk free”. No. But I don’t think “risk free” is an achievable goal.