War time POTUS waves White Flag - Printable Version
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War time POTUS waves White Flag - OutsiderFan - 07-04-2020
And I don't mean for white power. Or maybe it's waves White Flag, then drains the water from the nuclear reactor to create a core meltdown?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/we-need-live-it-white-house-readies-new-message-nation-n1232884
Yes, we have to learn to live with the virus, but that doesn't mean surrendering to it, FFS. The idea of downplaying the number of people who die, is just idiotic on steroids. We have already seen that public officials downplaying the seriousness of the pandemic has led to a resurgence that has put us in an even worse situation than three months ago.
How are people going to take mask wearing and distancing seriously, when the White House - and lemming GOP sycophants - are touting a "it's not that bad" message? My guess is this historically incompetent administration is looking at recent death numbers and concluding "hey, we have 50k cases a day now, but only like 500-600 deaths. We had 2-3k deaths per day when we have 30k cases a day, so it's not that bad." Of course, this asinine and moronic messaging concept ignores the fact the death numbers have started rising, and there is usually a 2-3 week lag in deaths after infections.
More younger people are getting hit hard and maybe won't die in the same numbers as older folks, though I just read about a Penn State student who tested positive June 19 and died June 30.. Yes, we have better therapeutics than at the beginning. But all that again ignores the long term health impacts and health care system being crushed. Can you imagine a government welcoming its citizens to get sick? It's one thing to hold irresponsible gatherings of people for political events. It's quite another for official government messaging to downplay the significance of the virus and in so doing encourage more people to take risks that will make things even worse than they already are. How could other countries - who are at risk for U.S. incompetent management of this virus - not sanction us? It would be irresponsible for them not to do so.
This is more than a POTUS issue. It's also about the court jesters he has advising him. Reading that article I linked illustrates staggering incompetence, cluelessness, contempt for truth, and a completely rudderless White House. Who the hell is in charge? Does anyone have any semblance of a strategy or know how to execute literally anything? It's akin to rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking Titanic. Unfortunately, we're all on it. Or maybe a better analogy is that we have Jim Jones as POTUS and we're all in some metaphorical Jonestown.
Whatever your analogy is, I see no way we aren't at 100k cases a day by the end of July with a "just live with it" (while the country dies from it) anti-strategy. I don't know how we're going to avoid SIP again, this time in many more states than did it for 2 months already. How will markets like that?
RE: War time POTUS waves White Flag - lex24 - 07-04-2020
I’m not particularly interested in what Trump says. Indeed I try to ignore it. I also don’t think what he personally does vis a vis masks etc matter to many. Those who refuse to wear masks (I disagree with them) do so I suspect for a variety of reasons - one being people who mistrust Govt, another being younger kids showing the youths tendency to believe they are invincible.
As for the science on this- it’s been all over the place. Starting with masks. You know the history I don’t need repeat it.
There have been a multitude of studies saying different things reaching different conclusions on almost every aspect of this virus. (And for every comment Trump makes that “underplays” the risk there are a multitude of those that overplay it. Or at least make certain to ratchet up the concern (or as some would say, fear)). And those studies get major play. So I don’t buy the notion that because Trump makes yet another stupid comment, people let there guard down. Indeed I think the vast majority of people are still concerned, still are taking appropriate measures to protect themselves and others. But at the same time, there is only so long people will remain in heavy SIP. Social animals etc. And it’s summer.)
From the outset, there has been differences in viewpoints of how best to deal with this. How to balance the health aspects with the economy. I bristle then and now when it’s framed (as it often is) as “those that want to save lives” versus those that are simply selfish. I find that many that take that moralistic approach are those for whom the hits to the economy are easily taken. I’m guessing, for example, that most of the people who frequent this board are in pretty good shape financially and can handle - not without some pain – but at least handle - the economic downturn. Little different for those in the lower economic strata for whom the economic consequences meant loss of jobs and making it that much more difficult to put food on their table. Not to mention the potential long term economic impact. I don’t know what the right “balance” was, but it’s not as simplistic as it was often laid out.
I also bristle – just for balance sake - at those that indicate that governors in blue states simply wanted to drive the economy down so Trump would lose. I find that argument every bit as distasteful as the “we just want to save lives“ argument.
Add to the fact that we are a Republic with 50 states each, with their own self governance and you have a mishmash of approaches, making it that much more difficult.
For those of you who suggest that Trump could’ve made orders to impose on all 50 states, I don’t think so. Indeed, harken back to the day when Trump made the comment that he could undertake steps to end the SIP’s and open up the states economies and was immediately shot down on federalism grounds as once again showing his lack of understanding of our Constitutional framework.
As for what tomorrow brings in regards to this virus who knows. It’s constantly changing landscape. I just get up in the morning and hope we are one day closer to getting past this mess.
Happy Independence Day.
RE: War time POTUS waves White Flag - lex24 - 07-04-2020
As for your assertion that “more younger people are getting hit hard...” upon what is that based. According to the American Council on Science and Health (I’ve never heard of the group. Reading wiki I think it leans conservative, but they actually listed numbers that I could refer to) there have been (through June 17) a total of 850 deaths in the US from Covid for those that are 34 and under.
The estimated INFECTION fatality rates:
5-9: 0.0016
10-19- 0.00032
20-49- 0.0092
Have you seen dramatically different numbers. Or are you basing your assumption on a tragedy out of Penn State.
RE: War time POTUS waves White Flag - chrisk - 07-04-2020
I don’t have sympathy for the fatalistic view many take when almost every other developed country has brought the pandemic under containment (most with fewer fatalities than the US has so far without containment.) Containment is quite possible and reasonable with political and individual will.
The fatalists are those who have wittingly or unwittingly bought into the political platform of a desperate campaign.
RE: War time POTUS waves White Flag - oregontim - 07-04-2020
(07-04-2020, 10:37 AM)lex24 Wrote: From the outset, there has been differences in viewpoints of how best to deal with this. How to balance the health aspects with the economy. I bristle then and now when it’s framed (as it often is) as “those that want to save lives” versus those that are simply selfish. ... Not to mention the potential long term economic impact. I don’t know what the right “balance” was, but it’s not as simplistic as it was often laid out.
I agree. And looking back to just 2-3 months ago, the health vs. economy framing (or lives vs. jobs) was wrong. Shutting down better and longer, and being more stringent and better at masks, testing, and tracing, would have been better for both jobs and health. Now, as our cases climb geometrically, this new surge will almost certainly exacerbate the downturn in the US. Meanwhile, most if not all other developed nations (Canada, Australia, most of Europe, Japan, Singapore, New Zealand, etc.) have gained control and will return to normal way before we will. Yeah, it's hindsight; but damn!
RE: War time POTUS waves White Flag - magnus - 07-04-2020
(07-04-2020, 11:30 AM)lex24 Wrote: As for your assertion that “more younger people are getting hit hard...” upon what is that based. According to the American Council on Science and Health (I’ve never heard of the group. Reading wiki I think it leans conservative, but they actually listed numbers that I could refer to) there have been (through June 17) a total of 850 deaths in the US from Covid for those that are 34 and under.
The estimated INFECTION fatality rates:
5-9: 0.0016
10-19- 0.00032
20-49- 0.0092
Have you seen dramatically different numbers. Or are you basing your assumption on a tragedy out of Penn State.
I think "hitting hard" just means getting infected (not just fatally). At least that's the only young person stat that I know of that would count as "more" for young people.
RE: War time POTUS waves White Flag - lex24 - 07-04-2020
(07-04-2020, 01:35 PM)oregontim Wrote:(07-04-2020, 10:37 AM)lex24 Wrote: From the outset, there has been differences in viewpoints of how best to deal with this. How to balance the health aspects with the economy. I bristle then and now when it’s framed (as it often is) as “those that want to save lives” versus those that are simply selfish. ... Not to mention the potential long term economic impact. I don’t know what the right “balance” was, but it’s not as simplistic as it was often laid out.
I agree. And looking back to just 2-3 months ago, the health vs. economy framing (or lives vs. jobs) was wrong. Shutting down better and longer, and being more stringent and better at masks, testing, and tracing, would have been better for both jobs and health. Now, as our cases climb geometrically, this new surge will almost certainly exacerbate the downturn in the US. Meanwhile, most if not all other developed nations (Canada, Australia, most of Europe, Japan, Singapore, New Zealand, etc.) have gained control and will return to normal way before we will. Yeah, it's hindsight; but damn!
Shutting down “better” means exactly what? As for longer - where? And how much longer?
Masks, testing, tracing are different issues. None of those are synonymous with shutdown.
RE: War time POTUS waves White Flag - oregontim - 07-04-2020
(07-04-2020, 02:52 PM)lex24 Wrote:(07-04-2020, 01:35 PM)oregontim Wrote:(07-04-2020, 10:37 AM)lex24 Wrote: From the outset, there has been differences in viewpoints of how best to deal with this. How to balance the health aspects with the economy. I bristle then and now when it’s framed (as it often is) as “those that want to save lives” versus those that are simply selfish. ... Not to mention the potential long term economic impact. I don’t know what the right “balance” was, but it’s not as simplistic as it was often laid out.
I agree. And looking back to just 2-3 months ago, the health vs. economy framing (or lives vs. jobs) was wrong. Shutting down better and longer, and being more stringent and better at masks, testing, and tracing, would have been better for both jobs and health. Now, as our cases climb geometrically, this new surge will almost certainly exacerbate the downturn in the US. Meanwhile, most if not all other developed nations (Canada, Australia, most of Europe, Japan, Singapore, New Zealand, etc.) have gained control and will return to normal way before we will. Yeah, it's hindsight; but damn!
Shutting down “better” means exactly what? As for longer - where? And how much longer?
Masks, testing, tracing are different issues. None of those are synonymous with shutdown.
I dunno ... does specifying "better and longer" matter that much, in this context? Can you just settle for what you wrote: "I don’t know what the right 'balance' was, but it’s not as simplistic as it was often laid out" and me agreeing with you?
RE: War time POTUS waves White Flag - lex24 - 07-04-2020
(07-04-2020, 03:39 PM)oregontim Wrote:(07-04-2020, 02:52 PM)lex24 Wrote:(07-04-2020, 01:35 PM)oregontim Wrote:(07-04-2020, 10:37 AM)lex24 Wrote: From the outset, there has been differences in viewpoints of how best to deal with this. How to balance the health aspects with the economy. I bristle then and now when it’s framed (as it often is) as “those that want to save lives” versus those that are simply selfish. ... Not to mention the potential long term economic impact. I don’t know what the right “balance” was, but it’s not as simplistic as it was often laid out.
I agree. And looking back to just 2-3 months ago, the health vs. economy framing (or lives vs. jobs) was wrong. Shutting down better and longer, and being more stringent and better at masks, testing, and tracing, would have been better for both jobs and health. Now, as our cases climb geometrically, this new surge will almost certainly exacerbate the downturn in the US. Meanwhile, most if not all other developed nations (Canada, Australia, most of Europe, Japan, Singapore, New Zealand, etc.) have gained control and will return to normal way before we will. Yeah, it's hindsight; but damn!
Shutting down “better” means exactly what? As for longer - where? And how much longer?
Masks, testing, tracing are different issues. None of those are synonymous with shutdown.
I dunno ... does specifying "better and longer" matter that much, in this context? Can you just settle for what you wrote: "I don’t know what the right 'balance' was, but it’s not as simplistic as it was often laid out" and me agreeing with you?
Yes, I can handle that. :). Didn’t mean to pick nits. But maybe that was what I did. If so, my bad.