You guys hate Harbaugh - Printable Version

You guys hate Harbaugh - Printable Version

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You guys hate Harbaugh - Phogge - 11-10-2019

I wish that the entire staff was named Harbaugh. I doubt that he would have called a time out on a punt. Good grist for a Monty Python skit.

RE: You guys hate Harbaugh - JohnR34231 - 11-10-2019

(11-10-2019, 12:07 AM)Phogge Wrote: I wish that the entire staff was named Harbaugh. I doubt that he would have called a time out on a punt. Good grist for a Monty Python skit.

We do? He was the one that rescuscitated Stanford football, even though "you guys" think Shaw is in the process of undoing all that.

I was sorry to see him leave Stanford ,too, but I've gotten over it
There still seem to be a few Stanford fans who haven't.

RE: You guys hate Harbaugh - Farm93 - 11-10-2019

(11-10-2019, 03:53 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 12:07 AM)Phogge Wrote: I wish that the entire staff was named Harbaugh. I doubt that he would have called a time out on a punt. Good grist for a Monty Python skit.

We do? He was the one that rescuscitated Stanford football, even though "you guys" think Shaw is in the process of undoing all that.

I was sorry to see him leave Stanford ,too, but I've gotten over it
There still seem to be a few Stanford fans who haven't.

This is all fine to lust after Harbaugh...if Harbaugh was fired.
The coach left this program. He would not return if Stanford offered $10 million per year.

FWIW - He was looking for more prestigious assignments after year #1 at Stanford. Those that didn't realize he would be leaving for the NFL and/or the BigTen after the 2007 season clearly don't understand what motivates top coaches. For example Denny Green was eager to try to get NFL opportunities at least by 1990.

And that is the cautionary tale. Top tier coaches are not common, cheap or loyal to Stanford. Very few of those top tier coaches could succeed at Stanford given its geographic location, academic standards, and small fan base. And those coaches that do succeed at Stanford then become very appealing to the NFL because NFL teams understand just how hard it is to win at Stanford.

The NFL offers a chance for those super successful type coaches to test their skills against the very best coaches in football. If they are that great it will be a challenge they will not turn down and will likely take after a couple of decent years at Stanford (see...Walsh, Green, Harbaugh).

RE: You guys hate Harbaugh - JohnR34231 - 11-10-2019

Yep, I don't think those people who would be popping Champagne bottles if Shaw were no longer our coach realize how difficult it is to find a coach who can be successful at Stanford and be willing to stay around after he has had that success.

Shaw is the first one we have had in a long, long time.

RE: You guys hate Harbaugh - cardcrimson - 11-10-2019

So, if I read your comment correctly, Shaw is not a top tier coach in your opinion. If he were great or top tier, he would have wanted to challenge himself at the highest level, either at other programs or the NFL. Since Shaw has not, he is happily complacent at Stanford and mediocrity.

Fair point indeed.

(11-10-2019, 07:41 AM)Farm93 Wrote: And that is the cautionary tale. Top tier coaches are not common, cheap or loyal to Stanford. Very few of those top tier coaches could succeed at Stanford given its geographic location, academic standards, and small fan base. And those coaches that do succeed at Stanford then become very appealing to the NFL because NFL teams understand just how hard it is to win at Stanford.

The NFL offers a chance for those super successful type coaches to test their skills against the very best coaches in football. If they are that great it will be a challenge they will not turn down and will likely take after a couple of decent years at Stanford (see...Walsh, Green, Harbaugh).

RE: You guys hate Harbaugh - JohnR34231 - 11-10-2019

(11-10-2019, 08:10 AM)cardcrimson Wrote: So, if I read your comment correctly, Shaw is not a top tier coach in your opinion. If he were great or top tier, he would have wanted to challenge himself at the highest level, either at other programs or the NFL. Since Shaw has not, he is happily complacent at Stanford and mediocrity.

Fair point indeed.

(11-10-2019, 07:41 AM)Farm93 Wrote: And that is the cautionary tale. Top tier coaches are not common, cheap or loyal to Stanford. Very few of those top tier coaches could succeed at Stanford given its geographic location, academic standards, and small fan base. And those coaches that do succeed at Stanford then become very appealing to the NFL because NFL teams understand just how hard it is to win at Stanford.

The NFL offers a chance for those super successful type coaches to test their skills against the very best coaches in football. If they are that great it will be a challenge they will not turn down and will likely take after a couple of decent years at Stanford (see...Walsh, Green, Harbaugh).

Shaw says he knows a lot of people coaching in the NFL and they are not having nearly as much fun as he is (although possibly not now).
So I wouldn't assume the reason Shaw hasn't gone to the NFL is that he is content to wallow in mediocrity.

RE: You guys hate Harbaugh - cardcrimson - 11-10-2019

(11-10-2019, 08:16 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 08:10 AM)cardcrimson Wrote: So, if I read your comment correctly, Shaw is not a top tier coach in your opinion. If he were great or top tier, he would have wanted to challenge himself at the highest level, either at other programs or the NFL. Since Shaw has not, he is happily complacent at Stanford and mediocrity.

Fair point indeed.

(11-10-2019, 07:41 AM)Farm93 Wrote: And that is the cautionary tale. Top tier coaches are not common, cheap or loyal to Stanford. Very few of those top tier coaches could succeed at Stanford given its geographic location, academic standards, and small fan base. And those coaches that do succeed at Stanford then become very appealing to the NFL because NFL teams understand just how hard it is to win at Stanford.

The NFL offers a chance for those super successful type coaches to test their skills against the very best coaches in football. If they are that great it will be a challenge they will not turn down and will likely take after a couple of decent years at Stanford (see...Walsh, Green, Harbaugh).

Shaw says he knows a lot of people coaching in the NFL and they are not having nearly as much fun as he is (although possibly not now).
So I wouldn't assume the reason Shaw hasn't gone to the NFL is that he is content to wallow in mediocrity.

Why not then, because he is afraid to be held to the high expectations of the NFL or top tier programs?

RE: You guys hate Harbaugh - JohnR34231 - 11-10-2019

(11-10-2019, 08:31 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 08:16 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 08:10 AM)cardcrimson Wrote: So, if I read your comment correctly, Shaw is not a top tier coach in your opinion. If he were great or top tier, he would have wanted to challenge himself at the highest level, either at other programs or the NFL. Since Shaw has not, he is happily complacent at Stanford and mediocrity.

Fair point indeed.

(11-10-2019, 07:41 AM)Farm93 Wrote: And that is the cautionary tale. Top tier coaches are not common, cheap or loyal to Stanford. Very few of those top tier coaches could succeed at Stanford given its geographic location, academic standards, and small fan base. And those coaches that do succeed at Stanford then become very appealing to the NFL because NFL teams understand just how hard it is to win at Stanford.

The NFL offers a chance for those super successful type coaches to test their skills against the very best coaches in football. If they are that great it will be a challenge they will not turn down and will likely take after a couple of decent years at Stanford (see...Walsh, Green, Harbaugh).

Shaw says he knows a lot of people coaching in the NFL and they are not having nearly as much fun as he is (although possibly not now).
So I wouldn't assume the reason Shaw hasn't gone to the NFL is that he is content to wallow in mediocrity.

Why not then, because he is afraid to be held to the high expectations of the NFL or top tier programs?

Maybe he just enjoys coaching college football at Stanford. After all he has been in the NFL before. He knows what it is like.
As far as not being held to high expectations is concerned, maybe the athletic department doesn't, but there sure are plenty of fans who do.
It almost sounds like you are saying you wouldn't want a coach who didn't leave Stanford after he had some success because he would be afraid to be held to high expectations and coach against the best.
Can't agree there.

RE: You guys hate Harbaugh - cardcrimson - 11-10-2019

(11-10-2019, 08:37 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 08:31 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 08:16 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 08:10 AM)cardcrimson Wrote: So, if I read your comment correctly, Shaw is not a top tier coach in your opinion. If he were great or top tier, he would have wanted to challenge himself at the highest level, either at other programs or the NFL. Since Shaw has not, he is happily complacent at Stanford and mediocrity.

Fair point indeed.

(11-10-2019, 07:41 AM)Farm93 Wrote: And that is the cautionary tale. Top tier coaches are not common, cheap or loyal to Stanford. Very few of those top tier coaches could succeed at Stanford given its geographic location, academic standards, and small fan base. And those coaches that do succeed at Stanford then become very appealing to the NFL because NFL teams understand just how hard it is to win at Stanford.

The NFL offers a chance for those super successful type coaches to test their skills against the very best coaches in football. If they are that great it will be a challenge they will not turn down and will likely take after a couple of decent years at Stanford (see...Walsh, Green, Harbaugh).

Shaw says he knows a lot of people coaching in the NFL and they are not having nearly as much fun as he is (although possibly not now).
So I wouldn't assume the reason Shaw hasn't gone to the NFL is that he is content to wallow in mediocrity.

Why not then, because he is afraid to be held to the high expectations of the NFL or top tier programs?

Maybe he just enjoys coaching college football at Stanford. After all he has been in the NFL before. He knows what it is like.
As far as not being held to high expectations is concerned, maybe the athletic department doesn't, but there sure are plenty of fans who do.
It almost sounds like you are saying you wouldn't want a coach who didn't leave Stanford after he had some success because he would e afraid to be held to high expectations and coach against the best.
Can't agree there.

I don't want a coach who is afraid to be held to high expectations and coach against the best. Being at Stanford, doesn't preclude that. It almost sounds like you think it does. Then again, as many people have noted, he has no apparent high expectations from the AD and some of the fan base. Many are quite content with his record of yesteryear. And he certainly hasn't challenged himself with or against the best--a quick glance at his hires for assistants proves that.

RE: You guys hate Harbaugh - Mick - 11-10-2019

(11-10-2019, 08:16 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote: Shaw says he knows a lot of people coaching in the NFL and they are not having nearly as much fun as he is (although possibly not now).
So I wouldn't assume the reason Shaw hasn't gone to the NFL is that he is content to wallow in mediocrity.

There have been times that I've wondered if Shaw is perfectly content at Stanford because he knows that his limited skill sets in recruiting, coaching, motivating, etc. would be forgiven at Stanford as they would nowhere else, AND because he knew he'd fail in the NFL immediately. He's Stanford-smart enough to know that the Peter principle wasn't for him.

RE: You guys hate Harbaugh - JohnR34231 - 11-10-2019

(11-10-2019, 10:25 AM)Mick Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 08:16 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote: Shaw says he knows a lot of people coaching in the NFL and they are not having nearly as much fun as he is (although possibly not now).
So I wouldn't assume the reason Shaw hasn't gone to the NFL is that he is content to wallow in mediocrity.

There have been times that I've wondered if Shaw is perfectly content at Stanford because he knows that his limited skill sets in recruiting, coaching, motivating, etc. would be forgiven at Stanford as they would nowhere else, AND because he knew he'd fail in the NFL immediately. He's Stanford-smart enough to know that the Peter principle wasn't for him.

Well, I suppose that's possible. Tyrone Willingham was sucessful at Stanford, but didn't have much luck when he tried to upgrade.
Kind of a dismal thought, though, to believe that a successful coach at Stanford would only stay because he felt he would not be able to make it on a bigger stage.

RE: You guys hate Harbaugh - Mick - 11-10-2019

(11-10-2019, 10:36 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 10:25 AM)Mick Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 08:16 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote: Shaw says he knows a lot of people coaching in the NFL and they are not having nearly as much fun as he is (although possibly not now).
So I wouldn't assume the reason Shaw hasn't gone to the NFL is that he is content to wallow in mediocrity.

There have been times that I've wondered if Shaw is perfectly content at Stanford because he knows that his limited skill sets in recruiting, coaching, motivating, etc. would be forgiven at Stanford as they would nowhere else, AND because he knew he'd fail in the NFL immediately. He's Stanford-smart enough to know that the Peter principle wasn't for him.

Well, I suppose that's possible. Tyrone Willingham was sucessful at Stanford, but didn't have much luck when he tried to upgrade.
Kind of a dismal thought, though, to believe that a successful coach at Stanford would only stay because he felt he would not be able to make it on a bigger stage.

Why is that a dismal thought? The right guy knows he's in the right place? TW didn't, and it was a disaster for him. Seems to me, Shaw made the right choice. He'll be the legendary Stanford football coach by the time he's done.

RE: You guys hate Harbaugh - JohnR34231 - 11-10-2019

(11-10-2019, 10:39 AM)Mick Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 10:36 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 10:25 AM)Mick Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 08:16 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote: Shaw says he knows a lot of people coaching in the NFL and they are not having nearly as much fun as he is (although possibly not now).
So I wouldn't assume the reason Shaw hasn't gone to the NFL is that he is content to wallow in mediocrity.

There have been times that I've wondered if Shaw is perfectly content at Stanford because he knows that his limited skill sets in recruiting, coaching, motivating, etc. would be forgiven at Stanford as they would nowhere else, AND because he knew he'd fail in the NFL immediately. He's Stanford-smart enough to know that the Peter principle wasn't for him.

Well, I suppose that's possible. Tyrone Willingham was sucessful at Stanford, but didn't have much luck when he tried to upgrade.
Kind of a dismal thought, though, to believe that a successful coach at Stanford would only stay because he felt he would not be able to make it on a bigger stage.

Why is that a dismal thought? The right guy knows he's in the right place? TW didn't, and it was a disaster for him. Seems to me, Shaw made the right choice. He'll be the legendary Stanford football coach by the time he's done.

He won't be the legendary coach if he starts turning in 4-8 records (and getting beat by ND by at least 35 points).
Or he might for the wrong reasons.

BTW it looks like Buddy Teevens will go 10-0 and win the Ivy League this year. So he knows he is in the right place, but it took him a while.

lex24 - lex24 - 11-10-2019

As are all Stanford fans, I’ll always be grateful for the amazing turnaround Harbaugh (and Bowlsby) acheieved. Yet I’ve often thought that many of the criticisms levied at Shaw also apply to Harbaugh:

1. Picking the wrong QB. (Burns over Chryst, over Costello over Mills etc). No decision Shaw ever makes will be as poor as redshirting Luck. Especially when Pritchard was the choice. Interestingly, I think he was very close to playing Luck I’ll tell you exactly when it was. San Jose State game at home, late first half. Stanford was struggling offensively. Luck got up and was warming up. About 15 feet from me right behind me. Pritchard then led Stanford on a touchdown drive and stayed in the game. I always thought that if Stanford did not score on that drive we would’ve seen Luck. Too bad. What a waste to not play him. And if you think that’s a one off remember that he benched Smith after an injury at a time he Smith was playing the best football of his career and turned it over to a Kaepernick.

2. Can’t develop QB’s Kaepernick got worse, not better. Always a one-trick pony. His current QB Shae Patterson was the top HS QB recruit. Certainly hasn’t lived up to the billing.

3 Bad playcalling at key moments. Remember’09 BG. Gerhardt running through Cal like ***** through a goose. And, yet with the game on the line he doesn’t give him the ball. Sure he had Luck. But still. And he repeated the mistake in the Super Bowl. Gore running well, yet they get inside the 10 and he leaves it in Kaepernick’s hands. I always thought the QB in him came out at those times He would have wanted to be “the decider” so....

4. Delay. Frankly all teams have snap issues at times. But it was every bit as true of Harbaugh’s team as Shaws. Always fighting the play clock. And again I’ll give you the Super Bowl as the best example. Had to call a time out with the play clock running down on the final series. And it killed them.

5. Can’t win the big one. Going back to of course 2011 and Michigan State with Shaw. But let me ask you this – give me one big game that Harbaugh has ever won? Orange Bowl doesn’t really count. That was a great football team and Virginia Tech was not. Actually was a ******* matchup. I wish Stanford would have drawn someone better. They still would have crushed them.

None of this is to suggest that Shaw is the equal of Harbaugh. I don’t think he is. Particularly as a recruiter. Harbaugh is relentless and not afraid to push the limits a bit. Creative also. I remember when he was recruiting Mixon ( or it may have been Harris) and he handle the down markers for a while at the game. I also remember a story when he was recruiting I think a punter of all things and ended up sleeping over at his house. He got them. More than anything else I think the biggest difference between Shaw and Harbaugh is the passion Harbaugh has in recruiting.

But Harbaugh has plenty of flaws. I haven’t even gotten to the personality issues. Plain fact of the matter is there’s no way he could’ve been a long timer at Stanford. So as the stain said – get over it. He’s long gone. One last point – I know a lot of people think Stanford picked the wrong guy in Shaw, Should’ve picked either Fangio or I think The person of choice was Roman. But again I ask a simple question – how many head coaching opportunities has Roman had since he left Stanford in 2010? I think the answer is zero. I suspect there’s a reason for that. Although he’s had a great year this year with Baltimore so he may get a shot moving forward. As for Fangio unfortunately I think will see that he’s a short timer in Denver. Great defensive coordinator. Not really sure hes a head coach type. Hope I’m wrong. Like the guy really would like to see him succeed. By the way – if Elway was anybody but Elway I think he’d be out at Denver. Ironically he can’t seem to find a quarterback.

Fire away.

Sorry, you won’t have that coach for long. Shaw is a lifer cause he loves the University. If he had opportunity to leave (and frankly, I never have thought he’d be a good NFL coach) He turned them down over loyalty to the school he loves. Anybody else takes the opportunity. Stanford always had been a steppingstone job. And it’s never gonna be different. The Bay Area is a lousy college football area it ain’t the SEC and it certainly ain’t the NFL.

quote="cardcrimson" pid='260411' dateline='1573401445']

(11-10-2019, 08:37 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 08:31 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 08:16 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 08:10 AM)cardcrimson Wrote: So, if I read your comment correctly, Shaw is not a top tier coach in your opinion. If he were great or top tier, he would have wanted to challenge himself at the highest level, either at other programs or the NFL. Since Shaw has not, he is happily complacent at Stanford and mediocrity.

Fair point indeed.

Shaw says he knows a lot of people coaching in the NFL and they are not having nearly as much fun as he is (although possibly not now).
So I wouldn't assume the reason Shaw hasn't gone to the NFL is that he is content to wallow in mediocrity.

Why not then, because he is afraid to be held to the high expectations of the NFL or top tier programs?

Maybe he just enjoys coaching college football at Stanford. After all he has been in the NFL before. He knows what it is like.
As far as not being held to high expectations is concerned, maybe the athletic department doesn't, but there sure are plenty of fans who do.
It almost sounds like you are saying you wouldn't want a coach who didn't leave Stanford after he had some success because he would e afraid to be held to high expectations and coach against the best.
Can't agree there.

RE: You guys hate Harbaugh - Farm93 - 11-10-2019

(11-10-2019, 08:10 AM)cardcrimson Wrote: So, if I read your comment correctly, Shaw is not a top tier coach in your opinion. If he were great or top tier, he would have wanted to challenge himself at the highest level, either at other programs or the NFL. Since Shaw has not, he is happily complacent at Stanford and mediocrity.

Fair point indeed.

[quote="Farm93" pid='260400' dateline='1573396904']

Shaw is different. He has ties to Stanford. He is a top tier coach. If he were to leave. Stanford would need the following things to happen.

A top tier football mind.
A coach capable of recruiting athletes out of the South to play in Northern California
A coach willing to tolerate coaching in front of 20,000 fans in the 2nd & 3rd quarters of games, and as few a a couple of hundred fans at the end of a game if the 4th quarter is played after 9PM.
A coach willing to accept a job with few chances to get the product promotional money common in other areas of the USA
Oh, and a coach willing to navigate Stanford's very restrictive administration standards.

Based on that list Stanford's next coach will be an unproven coach and/or an alum.

The catch is if the unproven coach is successful even for a year, then they immediately will be able to command a 2X or 3X increase in salary, additional fame and prestige by going to SEC or BigTen or NFL. They will leave. (see. Harbaugh, Green, Walsh). The more likely scenario is they will not succeed because of the reasons above, and be fired after 2 or 3 years. (see Football 2002-2007, or basketball)

So for Stanford to get an great, or amazing coach, and keep that coach for many years that coach needs to have links to Stanford. Essentially the only applicant that would match or exceed the hire of David Shaw 2011 would be David Shaw 2020.

To put it a different way, if David Shaw was at Northwestern, or Duke or Rice with the success he has had over the last 8+ seasons we would likely be screaming at the administration to take advantage of this down year and get him coaching at Stanford.

The grass is always greener....

RE: You guys hate Harbaugh - Brickcity - 11-10-2019

(11-10-2019, 11:43 AM)Farm93 Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 08:10 AM)cardcrimson Wrote: So, if I read your comment correctly, Shaw is not a top tier coach in your opinion. If he were great or top tier, he would have wanted to challenge himself at the highest level, either at other programs or the NFL. Since Shaw has not, he is happily complacent at Stanford and mediocrity.

Fair point indeed.

[quote="Farm93" pid='260400' dateline='1573396904']

Shaw is different. He has ties to Stanford. He is a top tier coach. If he were to leave. Stanford would need the following things to happen.

A top tier football mind.
A coach capable of recruiting athletes out of the South to play in Northern California
A coach willing to tolerate coaching in front of 20,000 fans in the 2nd & 3rd quarters of games, and as few a a couple of hundred fans at the end of a game if the 4th quarter is played after 9PM.
A coach willing to accept a job with few chances to get the product promotional money common in other areas of the USA
Oh, and a coach willing to navigate Stanford's very restrictive administration standards.

Based on that list Stanford's next coach will be an unproven coach and/or an alum.

The catch is if the unproven coach is successful even for a year, then they immediately will be able to command a 2X or 3X increase in salary, additional fame and prestige by going to SEC or BigTen or NFL. They will leave. (see. Harbaugh, Green, Walsh). The more likely scenario is they will not succeed because of the reasons above, and be fired after 2 or 3 years. (see Football 2002-2007, or basketball)

So for Stanford to get an great, or amazing coach, and keep that coach for many years that coach needs to have links to Stanford. Essentially the only applicant that would match or exceed the hire of David Shaw 2011 would be David Shaw 2020.

To put it a different way, if David Shaw was at Northwestern, or Duke or Rice with the success he has had over the last 8+ seasons we would likely be screaming at the administration to take advantage of this down year and get him coaching at Stanford.

The grass is always greener....

While it's true that it wouldn't be easy to find a top-notch coach and keep him, do remember that Stanford is certainly capable of drawing large crowds. Both in football and basketball. The formula is pretty simple: WIN. We saw as recently as 2015 that the crowds were good at Stanford Stadium when the team is competing for a conference championship.

Regarding the hypothetical re if Shaw had had similar success at Northwestern, or Duke or Rice: I think we all know that he wouldn't have had a ton of success at any of those places. Why? Because Harbaugh wasn't previously the head coach at any of those places. Look, I'll gladly give Shaw credit for maintaining what Harbaugh built - for a few years - but I think what you're seeing now is the type of "success" that Shaw likely would have had from the get-go if he were at any of those other schools.

lex24 - lex24 - 11-10-2019

Brickity - a large crowd is 100,000 screaming lunatics. You simply cannot compare Northern California football crowds to anything in the south or for that matter the Midwest when it comes to college football. Both Stanford and Cal DOWNSIZED. Considerably. Because a half to two-thirds empty stadium is not good.

quote="Brickcity" pid='260450' dateline='1573415166']

(11-10-2019, 11:43 AM)Farm93 Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 08:10 AM)cardcrimson Wrote: So, if I read your comment correctly, Shaw is not a top tier coach in your opinion. If he were great or top tier, he would have wanted to challenge himself at the highest level, either at other programs or the NFL. Since Shaw has not, he is happily complacent at Stanford and mediocrity.

Fair point indeed.

(11-10-2019, 07:41 AM)Farm93 Wrote:

Shaw is different. He has ties to Stanford. He is a top tier coach. If he were to leave. Stanford would need the following things to happen.

A top tier football mind.
A coach capable of recruiting athletes out of the South to play in Northern California
A coach willing to tolerate coaching in front of 20,000 fans in the 2nd & 3rd quarters of games, and as few a a couple of hundred fans at the end of a game if the 4th quarter is played after 9PM.
A coach willing to accept a job with few chances to get the product promotional money common in other areas of the USA
Oh, and a coach willing to navigate Stanford's very restrictive administration standards.

Based on that list Stanford's next coach will be an unproven coach and/or an alum.

The catch is if the unproven coach is successful even for a year, then they immediately will be able to command a 2X or 3X increase in salary, additional fame and prestige by going to SEC or BigTen or NFL. They will leave. (see. Harbaugh, Green, Walsh). The more likely scenario is they will not succeed because of the reasons above, and be fired after 2 or 3 years. (see Football 2002-2007, or basketball)

So for Stanford to get an great, or amazing coach, and keep that coach for many years that coach needs to have links to Stanford. Essentially the only applicant that would match or exceed the hire of David Shaw 2011 would be David Shaw 2020.

To put it a different way, if David Shaw was at Northwestern, or Duke or Rice with the success he has had over the last 8+ seasons we would likely be screaming at the administration to take advantage of this down year and get him coaching at Stanford.

The grass is always greener....

While it's true that it wouldn't be easy to find a top-notch coach and keep him, do remember that Stanford is certainly capable of drawing large crowds. Both in football and basketball. The formula is pretty simple: WIN. We saw as recently as 2015 that the crowds were good at Stanford Stadium when the team is competing for a conference championship.

Regarding the hypothetical re if Shaw had had similar success at Northwestern, or Duke or Rice: I think we all know that he wouldn't have had a ton of success at any of those places. Why? Because Harbaugh wasn't previously the head coach at any of those places. Look, I'll gladly give Shaw credit for maintaining what Harbaugh built - for a few years - but I think what you're seeing now is the type of "success" that Shaw likely would have had from the get-go if he were at any of those other schools.

RE: lex24 - Brickcity - 11-10-2019

(11-10-2019, 01:00 PM)lex24 Wrote: Brickity - a large crowd is 100,000 screaming lunatics. You simply cannot compare Northern California football crowds to anything in the south or for that matter the Midwest when it comes to college football. Both Stanford and Cal DOWNSIZED. Considerably. Because a half to two-thirds empty stadium is not good.

quote="Brickcity" pid='260450' dateline='1573415166']

(11-10-2019, 11:43 AM)Farm93 Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 08:10 AM)cardcrimson Wrote: So, if I read your comment correctly, Shaw is not a top tier coach in your opinion. If he were great or top tier, he would have wanted to challenge himself at the highest level, either at other programs or the NFL. Since Shaw has not, he is happily complacent at Stanford and mediocrity.

Fair point indeed.

(11-10-2019, 07:41 AM)Farm93 Wrote:

Shaw is different. He has ties to Stanford. He is a top tier coach. If he were to leave. Stanford would need the following things to happen.

A top tier football mind.
A coach capable of recruiting athletes out of the South to play in Northern California
A coach willing to tolerate coaching in front of 20,000 fans in the 2nd & 3rd quarters of games, and as few a a couple of hundred fans at the end of a game if the 4th quarter is played after 9PM.
A coach willing to accept a job with few chances to get the product promotional money common in other areas of the USA
Oh, and a coach willing to navigate Stanford's very restrictive administration standards.

Based on that list Stanford's next coach will be an unproven coach and/or an alum.

The catch is if the unproven coach is successful even for a year, then they immediately will be able to command a 2X or 3X increase in salary, additional fame and prestige by going to SEC or BigTen or NFL. They will leave. (see. Harbaugh, Green, Walsh). The more likely scenario is they will not succeed because of the reasons above, and be fired after 2 or 3 years. (see Football 2002-2007, or basketball)

So for Stanford to get an great, or amazing coach, and keep that coach for many years that coach needs to have links to Stanford. Essentially the only applicant that would match or exceed the hire of David Shaw 2011 would be David Shaw 2020.

To put it a different way, if David Shaw was at Northwestern, or Duke or Rice with the success he has had over the last 8+ seasons we would likely be screaming at the administration to take advantage of this down year and get him coaching at Stanford.

The grass is always greener....

While it's true that it wouldn't be easy to find a top-notch coach and keep him, do remember that Stanford is certainly capable of drawing large crowds. Both in football and basketball. The formula is pretty simple: WIN. We saw as recently as 2015 that the crowds were good at Stanford Stadium when the team is competing for a conference championship.

Regarding the hypothetical re if Shaw had had similar success at Northwestern, or Duke or Rice: I think we all know that he wouldn't have had a ton of success at any of those places. Why? Because Harbaugh wasn't previously the head coach at any of those places. Look, I'll gladly give Shaw credit for maintaining what Harbaugh built - for a few years - but I think what you're seeing now is the type of "success" that Shaw likely would have had from the get-go if he were at any of those other schools.

I should have defined what I meant by "large." I mean large by Stanford's historical standards. Obviously, we can't put more than 50,000 people in the stands because that's the stadium's capacity. But, I doubt most coaches really care. What they likely to care about is seeing a stadium that's near capacity. The atmosphere at Stanford Stadium from 2010-2013, as well as 2015, was great.

RE: lex24 - Goose - 11-10-2019

(11-10-2019, 01:17 PM)Brickcity Wrote: I should have defined what I meant by "large." I mean large by Stanford's historical standards. Obviously, we can't put more than 50,000 people in the stands because that's the stadium's capacity. But, I doubt most coaches really care. What they likely to care about is seeing a stadium that's near capacity. The atmosphere at Stanford Stadium from 2010-2013, as well as 2015, was great.

May people around the country have commented on the "Chardonnay drinking" Stanford crowds, and the "golf claps" for good plays. Stanford has never had, in the 50+ years I have attended games, a truly enthusiastic fan base. Back in the late 60s you could get big crowds, but the enthusiasm was usually for the opponents, not Stanford. Lots of Stanford people attended the games, but they were hardly rabid fans. That is just a fact. I don't consider that bad, but let's be real here. By the standards of the world at large, Stanford Stadium has never had "a great atmosphere". I like it, especially when we have a larger crowd that we have lately, but I recognize it is not Autzen (thank God!).
Before 2012, we didn't have the crazy TV driven schedule issues. That helped attendance a lot. Even in 2015 we didn't have quite the crazy PAC-12 schedule effects that we have today. That makes a real difference. Since you can't really plan ahead for when the game will be, many people just watch it on TV. It's easier, the view is good, and you don't have to worry about the heat or cold. Having a winning team helps, but I think in today's Bay Area, with the other attractions, crazy traffic and crazy scheduling of games, not nearly as much as you think. Lets hope we get a chance to find out.

RE: lex24 - Brickcity - 11-10-2019

(11-10-2019, 01:40 PM)Goose Wrote:
(11-10-2019, 01:17 PM)Brickcity Wrote: I should have defined what I meant by "large." I mean large by Stanford's historical standards. Obviously, we can't put more than 50,000 people in the stands because that's the stadium's capacity. But, I doubt most coaches really care. What they likely to care about is seeing a stadium that's near capacity. The atmosphere at Stanford Stadium from 2010-2013, as well as 2015, was great.
May people around the country have commented on the "Chardonnay drinking" Stanford crowds, and the "golf claps" for good plays. Stanford has never had, in the 50+ years I have attended games, a truly enthusiastic fan base. Back in the late 60s you could get big crowds, but the enthusiasm was usually for the opponents, not Stanford. Lots of Stanford people attended the games, but they were hardly rabid fans. That is just a fact. I don't consider that bad, but let's be real here. By the standards of the world at large, Stanford Stadium has never had "a great atmosphere". I like it, especially when we have a larger crowd that we have lately, but I recognize it is not Autzen (thank God!).
Before 2012, we didn't have the crazy TV driven schedule issues. That helped attendance a lot. Even in 2015 we didn't have quite the crazy PAC-12 schedule effects that we have today. That makes a real difference. Since you can't really plan ahead for when the game will be, many people just watch it on TV. It's easier, the view is good, and you don't have to worry about the heat or cold. Having a winning team helps, but I think in today's Bay Area, with the other attractions, crazy traffic and crazy scheduling of games, not nearly as much as you think. Lets hope we get a chance to find out.

No question that the atmosphere at Autzen is far louder and more intense. I also went to three games at Neyland in 2006, including close games against LSU and the eventual national champion, Florida. Obviously, Stanford can't compete with those crazy environments. But again, if Stanford Stadium is close to full and the majority of fans are rooting for Stanford in their own "polite" way, I suspect that dynamic is enough to satisfy most head coaches. As to the point you made about other factors making it much less likely that we'll draw 50,000 fans even with a top 10 team, we'll just have to wait and see.