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RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 07-26-2023
Just six days after being promoted to Sacramento...
Whoever took the under in the "When will Luciano make his MLB debut?" question, wins...
https://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2023/7/26/23808174/report-marco-luciano-will-be-called-up-today-san-francisco-giants-top-power-hitting-prospect
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 07-26-2023
(07-26-2023, 06:05 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Just six days after being promoted to Sacramento...
Whoever took the under in the "When will Luciano make his MLB debut?" question, wins...
https://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2023/7/26/23808174/report-marco-luciano-will-be-called-up-today-san-francisco-giants-top-power-hitting-prospect
Exciting news. Giants have thrown out their caution relating to bringing the players through the ranks. They’ve been aggressive this year.
Deadline is always interesting. Both for what the expectations are at the time of the moves and what actually happens. In thinking about past deadlines, here are some of the most impactful from a Giants perspective.
1. 1993. Braves acquire McGriff from Pads for who cares what. I don’t know if I can remember any other deadline hitter going nuts the way McGriff did in 93. Braves don’t beat the Giants that year without that deal. Still ticks me off.
2. 1987. Mitchell Dravecky and Lefferts for Mark Grant, Mark Davis and Keith Comstock. Best July deal in Giants history. Al Rosen has never got the credit he deserves. He and Roger are a big reason franchise is still in SF.
2. 1997. “White Flag” trade. Giants get Wilson Alvarez, Danny Darwin, and Roberto Hernandez from the White Sox. Three established, major-league pitchers. White Sox were still somewhat in the race. Hence the “white flag” moniker. But it actually turned out to be a pretty good deal for both teams. The trio helped the Giants get to the playoffs. And the White Sox picked up Keith Fowkes and Bobby Howry Both of whom has solid careers, especially Fowkes. Thing is, even that return comes with an asterisk. Because the key from the White Sox perspective was an infielder by the name of Mike Caruso. He was the top prospect in that deal. Never made it.
3. 2001. Jason Schmidt and John VanderWall for Armando Rios and Vogey. This one turned out to be a steal. Made even better by the fact they got Vogey back for his best years.
4. 2010. Javier Lopez for John Bowker and Joe Martinez. Drew a big yawn.Turned out to be major. Also in 2010 Giants pick up Cody Ross on a post deadline waiver deal. Allegedly to block the Padres from picking him up. Doesn’t do much during the regular season, but of course had a tremendous NLCS.
5. 2012. The Dodgers makes a “blockbuster” deal. Picking up, Adrian Gonzalez, Josh Beckett and Carl Crawford. Pundits go nuts, all but handing the NL Crown to the Dodgers. Meanwhile, Giants trade Charlie Culbertson for Marco Scutaro. Drawing a collective yawn. And, of course, Scutaro ends up being the true blockbuster. They had already picked up Pence for Schierholtz. And Hunter had a good run with the Giants. But he did almost nothing in 2012, besides his inspirational leader ship. Although that turned out to be big. Still, he didn’t produce at a level anywhere near what the Giants were hoping and expecting that year.
6. Beltran for Wheeler. Sometimes you win ( Jason Schmidt) sometimes you lose. A trade that in hindsight has been heavily criticized, but made perfect sense at the time. Giants were loaded with young pitching, led the division, and couldn’t hit a lick. Beltran was a borderline Hall of Fame player, switch hitter, and established run producer. He gets hurt, the Giants tank, and the rest is history.
So, after the deadline trades are made, and the pundits do their analysis, we will see what actually happens on the field. It’s often quite different than predicted. But it’s one heck of an interesting time of the year for baseball. And for the Giants.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 07-26-2023
(07-25-2023, 06:29 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(07-24-2023, 04:22 PM)lex24 Wrote: If healthy, I think this roster as currently constructed certainly is a contender for a playoff spot. But I don’t really see them as one capable of doing a whole lot of damage once there.
This has been my opinion all season. When it comes to trades, Farhan said it last week. Teams don't decide whether they are buyers or sellers until the last week before the deadline. If the current Giants players were performing well, the front office would reward them by trading some prospects not on the team for a difference maker or two. The current players are not performing, so they will not be rewarded with help. It's time to think about future Giants teams, not the current one. NFL training camps open this week, that means the Niners are about to push the Giants into irrelevancy anyway.
So...it's time to trade Joc Pederson, Wilmer Flores, and any relievers that can net you something interesting.
Pederson is a playoff-experienced LH DH with an .831 OPS and is on an expiring contract. Flores is a great RH DH with another year of team control (for just $6.5M) on a hot streak and a nearly .900 OPS. These guys will actually land some decent prospects.
You might say it is crazy to trade the two best offensive players the Giants have when they are struggling mightily to score, but they are losing with these guys. Another reason to trade is because the D-Backs are gonna be buyers and the Reds/Brewers are better. Will the Giants stave off the Phillies who are better, and the Marlins too? Doubtful. And even if they do, are they going to do anything in the playoffs? The answer is no, they will not.
I'd rather finish below .500 with a better farm system than finish above .500 with a lesser system because there is no way the Giants have what it takes to be anything more than an also ran this season. When that is the case, build for future.
You don’t sell off when you are contending. Pisses off the team and fan base. I could see dealing Wood and/or Manaea/DeSclafani as part of a package. Thus freeing up roster spots for Beck and Winn.
Pedersen doubtful. Big contract. Streak hitter. Has had big Octobers. Flores? No way.
Before they lost 6 straight, they won 7 straight. Schizophrenic team. But you can’t overreact to a tough stretch.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 07-26-2023
(07-26-2023, 06:42 AM)lex24 Wrote: Deadline is always interesting. Both for what the expectations are at the time of the moves and what actually happens. In thinking about past deadlines, here are some of the most impactful from a Giants perspective.
1. 1993. Braves acquire McGriff from Pads for who cares what. I don’t know if I can remember any other deadline hitter going nuts the way McGriff did in 93. Braves don’t beat the Giants that year without that deal. Still ticks me off.
2. 1987. Mitchell Dravecky and Lefferts for Mark Grant, Mark Davis and Keith Comstock. Best July deal in Giants history. Al Rosen has never got the credit he deserves. He and Roger are a big reason franchise is still in SF.
2. 1997. “White Flag” trade. Giants get Wilson Alvarez, Danny Darwin, and Roberto Hernandez from the White Sox. Three established, major-league pitchers. White Sox were still somewhat in the race. Hence the “white flag” moniker. But it actually turned out to be a pretty good deal for both teams. The trio helped the Giants get to the playoffs. And the White Sox picked up Keith Fowkes and Bobby Howry Both of whom has solid careers, especially Fowkes. Thing is, even that return comes with an asterisk. Because the key from the White Sox perspective was an infielder by the name of Mike Caruso. He was the top prospect in that deal. Never made it.
5. 2012. The Dodgers makes a “blockbuster” deal. Picking up, Adrian Gonzalez, Josh Beckett and Carl Crawford. Pundits go nuts, all but handing the NL Crown to the Dodgers. Meanwhile, Giants trade Charlie Culbertson for Marco Scutaro. Drawing a collective yawn. And, of course, Scutaro ends up being the true blockbuster. They had already picked up Pence for Schierholtz. And Hunter had a good run with the Giants. But he did almost nothing in 2012, besides his inspirational leader ship. Although that turned out to be big. Still, he didn’t produce at a level anywhere near what the Giants were hoping and expecting that year.
6. Beltran for Wheeler. Sometimes you win ( Jason Schmidt) sometimes you lose. A trade that in hindsight has been heavily criticized, but made perfect sense at the time. Giants were loaded with young pitching, led the division, and couldn’t hit a lick. Beltran was a borderline Hall of Fame player, switch hitter, and established run producer. He gets hurt, the Giants tank, and the rest is history. T
So, after the deadline trades are made, and the pundits do their analysis, we will see what actually happens on the field. It’s often quite different than predicted. But it’s one heck of an interesting time of the year for baseball. And for the Giants.
One of the all time great steals. McGriff traded for three guys, one never made the majors, one played for a year, the other played for a few years -- badly.
Davis became a two time all star after having four horrendous years with the Giants (25-45). Grant and Comstock never did much. Dravecky was a former all star, Lefferts did much better for the Giants than the Padres, and Mitchell hit 143 home runs in three full and two partial seasons with the Giants. League MVP and two-time all star.
Fouke became an all star, led the league in saves once. Caruso was third in rookie of the year voting, batted .306, then .230 the next year, then career was over.
Always liked Pence. Former All-Star, Giants got him when he was just 29, and he had four good years with the Giants, but didn't do much in 2012...other than rally the troops for six consecutive must-win games. He had a tough time hitting with the Giants, worst BA, OBP and OPS of his four major league teams. Gets let go, then becomes an All Star in his only year with the Rangers.
The Beltran trade could have turned out much better than it did. Beltran hit .323/.369/.551/.920 for the Giants, the best OPS of his seven major league teams. He played five more years and was an all star in three of them, including 2012 and 2013. Would have been good to have him around.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 07-26-2023
No Pence, no championship in 2012.
Acquiring his contract for Schierholtz and Joseph was one of Sabean’s best deadline deals. He was the engine that powered the Giants to the World Series.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - BobK - 07-26-2023
Luciano just called up
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 07-26-2023
(07-26-2023, 09:31 AM)BobK Wrote: Luciano just called up
and Villar sent down. That could be the last we have seen from Villar (a classic 4A player).
Also, this raises the question - should Crawford be resigned to function as a mentor to SF’s young infield group and mid-infield utility guy.
I am hoping that Crawford will someday retire as a 100% Giant. We shall see…..
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - triangle2 - 07-26-2023
One day back in the 80's, I was limping out of the Palo Alto Medical Clinic Ortho Building, and I heard this "thwack" noise. And, before I could orient myself to the noise, I heard the thwack again. I stepped out into the parking lot and something flew directly over my head, resulting in another loud "thwack" noise. I looked up, and I saw Drevecky at one end of the parking lot spiraling a football basically the full length of the parking lot. The dude catching Drevecky couldn't in any way match the throw, so he was running the ball forward and then lobbing it back. One of those moments where you understand how you're just a plain normal person and you're watching someone with elite athleticism.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 07-26-2023
Man, the Padres are dropping a series at home to the Pirates. The D-backs are dropping one at home to the Cardinals.
I just can't make any sense of this NL season. The Mets and Padres clearly have more talented players than the Giants, but somehow the Giants have a better record. Now the D-Backs have fallen apart just like the Giants, 3-9 since break.
Anyway, where does Luciano play? Nobody thinks he is a good enough athlete with a good enough arm to play SS. But he's never played anything other than SS in minors, and he is playing SS for his MLB debut.
Bailey C, Matos CF, Schmitt 2B, and Luciano SS all in the lineup tonight. An all rookie up the middle defense. Has that every happened for the Giants before?
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 07-26-2023
(07-26-2023, 03:24 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Man, the Padres are dropping a series at home to the Pirates. The D-backs are dropping one at home to the Cardinals.
I just can't make any sense of this NL season. The Mets and Padres clearly have more talented players than the Giants, but somehow the Giants have a better record. Now the D-Backs have fallen apart just like the Giants, 3-9 since break.
Anyway, where does Luciano play? Nobody thinks he is a good enough athlete with a good enough arm to play SS. But he's never played anything other than SS in minors, and he is playing SS for his MLB debut.
Bailey C, Matos CF, Schmitt 2B, and Luciano SS all in the lineup tonight. An all rookie up the middle defense. Has that every happened for the Giants before?
Nobody? Luciano’s minor league mgr. at Richmond raved about his defense at SS. This was a key to his promotion to Sacramento.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 07-26-2023
(07-26-2023, 05:00 PM)Giants Wrote:(07-26-2023, 03:24 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Man, the Padres are dropping a series at home to the Pirates. The D-backs are dropping one at home to the Cardinals.
I just can't make any sense of this NL season. The Mets and Padres clearly have more talented players than the Giants, but somehow the Giants have a better record. Now the D-Backs have fallen apart just like the Giants, 3-9 since break.
Anyway, where does Luciano play? Nobody thinks he is a good enough athlete with a good enough arm to play SS. But he's never played anything other than SS in minors, and he is playing SS for his MLB debut.
Bailey C, Matos CF, Schmitt 2B, and Luciano SS all in the lineup tonight. An all rookie up the middle defense. Has that every happened for the Giants before?
Nobody? Luciano’s minor league mgr. at Richmond raved about his defense at SS. This was a key to his promotion to Sacramento.
Luciano had a .956 fielding percentage, 7 errors and turned 24 DPs. Not too shabby.
https://www.statscrew.com/minorbaseball/stats/t-rs14078/y-2023
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 07-26-2023
Nothing like two consecutive wins over the worst team in baseball to cure what ails you.
8-3 win tonight, home run by Austin Slater. Giants were 5/10 with runners in scoring position.
Bought four tickets for the game on Saturday. Judging by the price and availability, I'd say this is going to be a very good year for the Giants, attendance-wise.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 07-27-2023
Why in the hell are the Giants pinch hitting for Luciano with a 2 run lead? The guy hardly played in AAA and needs as many ABs as he can get. Just don’t understand the thinking even a little bit.
Even if Pederson hit one into the water I still don’t think removing Luciano was the right move.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 07-27-2023
(07-27-2023, 03:03 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Why in the hell are the Giants pinch hitting for Luciano with a 2 run lead? The guy hardly played in AAA and needs as many ABs as he can get. Just don’t understand the thinking even a little bit.
Even if Pederson hit one into the water I still don’t think removing Luciano was the right move.
Agree. Completely. That’s Kapler. They had a right handed pitcher, so it called for bringing in your left-handed pinch-hitter. Bottom seven, leading off, up 2. Never mind, this is your number one hitting prospect and the pitcher is some guy who’s had a total of six innings in the major leagues. Or, the moment. Giant fans have been waiting for this. As it turns out he lost two ABs.
Kapler manages by computer. And I get the impression he thinks he’s the smartest guy in the room. I’d be really interested to know what his reputation is across major league baseball. I simply can’t warm up to the guy. He just bugs the hell out of me.
(07-26-2023, 10:35 PM)Mick Wrote: Nothing like two consecutive wins over the worst team in baseball to cure what ails you.
8-3 win tonight, home run by Austin Slater. Giants were 5/10 with runners in scoring position.
Bought four tickets for the game on Saturday. Judging by the price and availability, I'd say this is going to be a very good year for the Giants, attendance-wise.
So far, it is not….
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 07-27-2023
(07-27-2023, 07:34 AM)lex24 Wrote:(07-27-2023, 03:03 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Why in the hell are the Giants pinch hitting for Luciano with a 2 run lead? The guy hardly played in AAA and needs as many ABs as he can get. Just don’t understand the thinking even a little bit.
Even if Pederson hit one into the water I still don’t think removing Luciano was the right move.
Agree. Completely. That’s Kapler. They had a right handed pitcher, so it called for bringing in your left-handed pinch-hitter. Bottom seven, leading off, up 2. Never mind, this is your number one hitting prospect and the pitcher is some guy who’s had a total of six innings in the major leagues. Or, the moment. Giant fans have been waiting for this. As it turns out he lost two ABs.
Kapler manages by computer. And I get the impression he thinks he’s the smartest guy in the room. I’d be really interested to know what his reputation is across major league baseball. I simply can’t warm up to the guy. He just bugs the hell out of me.
(07-26-2023, 10:35 PM)Mick Wrote: Nothing like two consecutive wins over the worst team in baseball to cure what ails you.
8-3 win tonight, home run by Austin Slater. Giants were 5/10 with runners in scoring position.
Bought four tickets for the game on Saturday. Judging by the price and availability, I'd say this is going to be a very good year for the Giants, attendance-wise.
So far, it is not….
Kapler is leading MLB in managerial challenges with 36, and he's been successful with 21 (58% win rate). The 21 successful challenges is far and away the best in MLB, next best are the Marlins and Diamondbacks with 17. And his 58% win rate is sixth best in the majors.
For a guy whose starters are composed chiefly of role players and rookies, I'm not unhappy that the Giants are where they are in the standings, currently in the first wild card slot.
And as for attendance...right now, they're 14th in the league at 30,716 per home game, slightly ahead of last year's final home average of 30,650, which was good for 12th. To dig a little deeper, I created a five day rolling average. My conclusion is that the trend us up. Once we got past the opening day sellout crowd and the home Dodger series, the average dropped into the high 20ks, then the mid-20ks, and the five day rolling average fell to the low water mark of 22,733 and 22,952 on April 27 and May 5, and 22,387 on May 16. At that point it started to rebound, to 25k, then 28k, then 31k+ as of May 29, then 35k on June 11, then 36k on July 3. The five day rolling average as of yesterday was 36,132.
In other words, school is out, summer is here, hopefully things are getting better in downtown SF, and attendance is improving. Here's the home attendance average on a monthly basis, and the trend is even more stark:
April 28,766
May 27,050
June 34,190
July 35,357
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - BobK - 07-29-2023
There must be someone somewhere better than Wisely. He was terrible last night.
As a team 1 walk 13 Ks. And to think it’s all about plate discipline. And yes the home plate umpire was bad
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 07-29-2023
An unreported number of Giants fans on McCovey Chronicles poll concludes 72% think the Giants are making the playoffs.
It's hard for me to see this Giants team making it. They flat out don't score enough for their pitching ability. The team is so maddeningly mediocre at everything. They do nothing great and have nobody who scares you on the mound, at the plate or in the field, except maybe Camilo Doval.
And I don't see anybody available in trade who would change this or make the them better than the other WC contenders.
The Reds, Cubs, Phillies, and D-Backs all have a better roster IMO, and so too the Marlins, who just added dominant reliever David Robertson from the Mets and seem eager to add another starter.
The Giants schedule is just brutal from now until September:
Red Sox (July), D-Backs, @A's, @Angels, Rangers, Rays, @Braves, @Phillies, Braves, Reds
All these teams but the A's are seriously contending for post season. Giants play 27 games in August. Anyone think they will go better than 11-16?
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 07-29-2023
(07-29-2023, 08:25 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: An unreported number of Giants fans on McCovey Chronicles poll concludes 72% think the Giants are making the playoffs.
It's hard for me to see this Giants team making it. They flat out don't score enough for their pitching ability. The team is so maddeningly mediocre at everything. They do nothing great and have nobody who scares you on the mound, at the plate or in the field, except maybe Camilo Doval.
And I don't see anybody available in trade who would change this or make the them better than the other WC contenders.
The Reds, Cubs, Phillies, and D-Backs all have a better roster IMO, and so too the Marlins, who just added dominant reliever David Robertson from the Mets and seem eager to add another starter.
The Giants schedule is just brutal from now until September:
Red Sox (July), D-Backs, @A's, @Angels, Rangers, Rays, @Braves, @Phillies, Braves, Reds
All these teams but the A's are seriously contending for post season. Giants play 27 games in August. Anyone think they will go better than 11-16?
Yes. I do. 15-12
Giants have been an average hitting team most of the year. They’re in a slump. It happens.
Back end of their bullpen is one of baseball’s best. They need another SP and a right handed bat. Preferably MIF.
Losing Estrada hurt. Hopefully he’s back by end of month.
DBacks are sinking fast. Reds have pitching issues (13th in ERA in NL. Giants are 3d. ) Plus, young teams tend to fade down the stretch. Marlins have a negative run differential and can’t hit - next to last in runs scored in NL. Giants are 8th. BTW, Giants also have better ERA than Marlins.
Cubs have got hot to finally reach .500. They do have the advantage of being in a lousy division.
There is one dominant NL team - Atlanta. Otherwise, it’s wide open.
Edit - run differential. Braves +143. Dodgers +96. Padres +57. Cubs +56. Giants +22. Phillies +11. DBacks +2 Reds -5. Brewers -6. Marlins -18. Crazy. And an example of why I’ve never taken a whole lot of stock in that stat.
My biggest concern continues to be health. Wade now has back tightness issue. He was, imo, team MVP at AS break. Been slumping since. I’m sure back is part of that reason. Davis, Conforto, Yaz, Pederson, Slater all have been dealing with issues. They need to produce down stretch.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 07-29-2023
Yep. I have confidence that Zaidi will make a trade or two that will help SF as they head into the dog days. 13-15 wins in August…..
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - chrisk - 07-29-2023
Blown save for Doval, then JD walks it off.