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RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - UltimateCard - 01-30-2023

(01-30-2023, 07:41 PM)DaBears17 Wrote:  
(01-30-2023, 07:35 PM)crackpot Wrote:  Funny to have a game where Missy's presence is barely noticeable.

Upon realizing that today, my next thought was is Missy okay??!!

She did check video review once, but besides that I barely noticed her. 

I was at the game - there was a 3-sec violation called and then next thing I saw was Paopao doubled over in pain near half court. Apparently she got smacked in the face and that’s what the review was about. Can anyone who watched the game at home elaborate? Just curious…

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - CompSci87 - 01-30-2023

(01-30-2023, 06:02 PM)jonnyss Wrote:  yes, i made a blatantly political counter-argument. and i stated why. to repeat:

if folks are going to trash liberal wokeness after being asked nicely (not by me) not to be political, i reserve the right to balance the argument.

i notice that folks challenge me for escalating while saying nothing to MV72018 for ignoring the request to stay apolitical.

i do not wish to collude with the position that the right gets to play dirty and the left has to behave.

I don't care who is left, right, up, down, red, or green here. If someone else says something political you don't like and they aren't sufficiently punished for your satisfaction, you don't get to inject an equal or slightly stronger comment for fairness sake. The rules here are to promote calm and collegial conversation. Not to see how much each of two opposing sides can get away with and keep escalating.

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - BobK - 01-30-2023

(01-30-2023, 08:07 PM)UltimateCard Wrote:  
(01-30-2023, 07:41 PM)DaBears17 Wrote:  
(01-30-2023, 07:35 PM)crackpot Wrote:  Funny to have a game where Missy's presence is barely noticeable.

Upon realizing that today, my next thought was is Missy okay??!!

She did check video review once, but besides that I barely noticed her. 

I was at the game - there was a 3-sec violation called and then next thing I saw was Paopao doubled over in pain near half court. Apparently she got smacked in the face and that’s what the review was about. Can anyone who watched the game at home elaborate? Just curious…

Kiki was running by Paopao Kiki’s trying to dodge her but Paopao stepped toward her kiki’s arm hit Paopao in the face. Per the announcers Paopao moved into kiki
Not intentional foul

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - 81alum - 01-30-2023

(01-30-2023, 07:41 PM)DaBears17 Wrote:   During a couple timeouts she was talking and joking with a couple people sitting near the TV announcers.  I wonder who she was talking to?
I was sitting about 6 feet away from them.  She clearly knew them, smiled upon seeing them, and chatted with them a little.  But I could not hear what they were talking about.

By the way, how did you all like the Fleet Street Singers with the national anthem?  Always one of my favorite a cappella groups and nice to have a home-grown performance rather than the recorded MUZAK version.

David Shaw was at the game, and the fans around me greeted him warmly.

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - UltimateCard - 01-30-2023

(01-30-2023, 08:19 PM)BobK Wrote:  
(01-30-2023, 08:07 PM)UltimateCard Wrote:  
(01-30-2023, 07:41 PM)DaBears17 Wrote:  
(01-30-2023, 07:35 PM)crackpot Wrote:  Funny to have a game where Missy's presence is barely noticeable.

Upon realizing that today, my next thought was is Missy okay??!!

She did check video review once, but besides that I barely noticed her. 

I was at the game - there was a 3-sec violation called and then next thing I saw was Paopao doubled over in pain near half court. Apparently she got smacked in the face and that’s what the review was about. Can anyone who watched the game at home elaborate? Just curious…

Kiki was running by Paopao Kiki’s trying to dodge her but Paopao stepped toward her kiki’s arm hit Paopao in the face.  Per the announcers Paopao moved into kiki
Not intentional foul

Thanks! And Ouch!

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - stopandpop - 01-30-2023

Brink just named PAC-12 Player of the Week.

Stanford's Cameron Brink named Pac-12 Player of Week, presented by Nextiva, for third time this season | Pac-12

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - 2006alum - 01-30-2023

Missy has actually been fine all season in the games I've seen. It's like she had a lobotomy that has caused her to swallow her ticky tack whistle. Even her video reviews have been, IMHO, legit. (Like the one on Pao Pao where, without a video review, it was very hard to tell what was happening away from the ball.) 

I like Jones at the 4 and it's too bad we have so much post talent and no room for them all. For all folks criticize our guards, Lepolo and Emma-Nnopu are shooting treys above .400 in conference play, so they clearly just need to confidence and encouragement to keep going after them, as Tara has been saying. And of course it'd be awesome if we had three A-A guards, but we don't, so we just got to work with what we have. (And hopefully Nivar can develop her shooting touch and stay out of foul trouble, because she has great IQ and I love her high energy, opportunistic style of play.)

Have faith in Tara. And let's everyone chill out. We've lost one game to a team that isn't the reigning national champion, and right now we're doing it with a starting lineup that has only two top 25 recruits.

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - cardfan1996 - 01-30-2023

Cam should be runaway Defensive POY in the PAC-12 and nationally. She and Pili are probably close in PAC-12 POY which Cam probably leads but Stanford needs to finish #1 to secure it. She probably needs much more effective marketing to collect what she deserves on a national scale (NDPOY).

Sorry “group projects” are triggering for me personally especially when everyone is not required and expected to “pull their own weight.” I didn’t find the humor. But also it’s less about that specific quote and more about it confirming my own biases. It’s like when Agnes finally made an open layup and a 3-pter a few games ago (maybe the UCLA game), and the Stanford bench literally went nuts. The announcers said the bench was reacting like Stanford won a national championship. I kid you not. It was the sort of over the top reaction you have if you sign up a kid whose one wish is to make a basket in a game and the other team allows them to score, and everyone stands up on either side of the aisle and cheers. This is suppose to be real Power 5 women’s basketball with elite skillful athletes at every position. It’s not like the movie Rudy where the bar is set low. The growth of the women’s game depends on the bar being set extraordinarily high and athletes meeting and exceeding those expectations. To me, it is bigger than just one team, one coach or one conference.  But it is the responsibility of every team, every coach and every conference to push the game forward and evolve it and take it to the next level. I watch both men’s and women’s college and professional basketball and I really want to see the women’s game evolve to a much higher place in the next 10 years. It’s been stuck in neutral for a decade in my opinion. And maybe gone backwards. As I told someone last year, those Maya Moore, Tina Charles- lead UConn teams would probably beat last year’s S.Carolina by 20 pts. They would have beat last year’s version of UConn with Paige on one leg by 40 pts.

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - triangle2 - 01-30-2023

(01-30-2023, 11:24 PM)cardfan1996 Wrote:  Cam should be runaway Defensive POY in the PAC-12 and nationally. She and Pili are probably close in PAC-12 POY which Cam probably leads but Stanford needs to finish #1 to secure it. She probably needs much more effective marketing to collect what she deserves on a national scale (NDPOY).

Sorry “group projects” are triggering for me personally especially when everyone is not required and expected to “pull their own weight.” I didn’t find the humor. But also it’s less about that specific quote and more about it confirming my own biases. It’s like when Agnes finally made an open layup and a 3-pter a few games ago (maybe the UCLA game), and the Stanford bench literally went nuts. The announcers said the bench was reacting like Stanford won a national championship. I kid you not. It was the sort of over the top reaction you have if you sign up a kid whose one wish is to make a basket in a game and the other team allows them to score, and everyone stands up on either side of the aisle and cheers. This is suppose to be real Power 5 women’s basketball with elite skillful athletes at every position. It’s not like the movie Rudy where the bar is set low. The growth of the women’s game depends on the bar being set extraordinarily high and athletes meeting and exceeding those expectations. To me, it is bigger than just one team, one coach or one conference.  But it is the responsibility of every team, every coach and every conference to push the game forward and evolve it and take it to the next level. I watch both men’s and women’s college and professional basketball and I really want to see the women’s game evolve to a much higher place in the next 10 years. It’s been stuck in neutral for a decade in my opinion. And maybe gone backwards. As I told someone last year, those Maya Moore, Tina Charles- lead UConn teams would probably beat last year’s S.Carolina by 20 pts. They would have beat last year’s version of UConn with Paige on one leg by 40 pts.


In Tara We Trust. Remember, we beat Maya Moore at Maples in 2010 with a ‘we believe’ team. One of my favorite college basketball games of all time. These kids have each other’s backs. If you don’t believe that’s worth a lot in crunch time, go back and watch the Samuelsons in the 2014 UConn game (vs. Brianna Stewart) and watch the shots of the bench.

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - SkiBum80 - 01-31-2023

Following our MBB and WBB.
I appreciate the notes of comparison to prior years, teams, level of play.
But also strikes me a bit as arguing over how many angels fit on the head of a pin.
Like in NBA, who was better, MJ, Kareem, Wilt, ... uh, yeah, pick one!
What really matters for us now is what Coach (Tara, Jared) get outta what they got, against who they play here and now.
Coach T getting great results.
Yeah I hear and see the blemishes, but for every mistake, there are often 2 or 3 great or brilliant plays.
And the competitive spirit of the WBB is palpable.
A distinct "not in our house" mentality.
The MBB could and should copy a page or two outta the WBB, both about the sum being more than the parts, and the spirit.
Though the MBB last game vs CAL was very promising on the defensive intensity side, a refreshing experience.
And now the WBB will be facing a daunting Feb with so many games in hostile arena's against good teams, every one eager to knock off the reigning Pac 12 champs.
Look forward to see if their spirit and drive is up to it, hoping so.

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - biketoc - 01-31-2023

So who at the game saw Missy at the back of the conga line?  I'm not kidding!  She was walking across from the scorers table to where the announcers are and got at the back of the line with one of the kids.  It was hilarious.

(01-30-2023, 07:35 PM)crackpot Wrote:  Funny to have a game where Missy's presence is barely noticeable.

Upon realizing that today, my next thought was is Missy okay??!!


RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - chimera - 01-31-2023

I saw Missy conga.  First game I can recall seeing her.  I agree with those who say she is much better than she used to be.  Refs have a tough job.  She is not my favorite ref but also not one I most hate to see out there.

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - martyup - 01-31-2023

Happy refs make for happy fans.  I too don't mind the new and improved Missy.

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - WBB fan - 01-31-2023

Agree, Missy seems to have mellowed a bit, but it's hard to let go of the Missy!! Feeling. It goes back so many years, for me, at least 20. But even years ago, i saw a differentvside of her. Several years after I became acutely aware of her,, during one of the games Stanford played at Santa Clara while maples was being renovated,( 2004??) I encountered her while walking on the floor before the game started. We'd never met, but she smiled at me, and then said something of a friendly sort, can't remember just what, but it was very nice. I responded accordingly,  and walked away with a changed feeling about her as a person. So maybe I'm not surprised by the conga participation.
Great article about Cam's triple double in this morning's chronicle. I can't post the link since my computer is sick, but look fot it. I hope it shows up on the FBC website, not there now.

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - OCcardinal - 01-31-2023

Tara seemed to suggest in the presser that her work is harder this season because lineups are not as automatic.  I was confused by that at first because I thought the starters were playing more minutes.  So I compared the average number of minutes in Pac 12 play between last year and this among the players that played the most:

2021-22 Season Pac 12 Games
Player Games (Avg Minutes when playing)
Anna 15 (32)
Haley 14 (30)
Lexie 15 (30)
Lacie 16 (25)
Cam 15 (22)
Hannah 13 (13)
Fran 16 (13)
Jana 13 (10)
Kiki 15 (8)

2022-23 Season 
Player Games (Avg Minutes when playing)

Hannah 10 (36)
Haley 10 (35)
Cam 10 (29)
Talana 9 (25)
Agnes 8 (19)
Brooke 9 (12)
Kiki 10 (11)
Indya 10 (11)

Comparing the two seasons, I noted the following:
- Haley and Hannah are putting in big minutes (avg of 35+), compared to Haley and Anna's 31 minutes average last season. I don't know if that is because they are doing particularly great or because they are helping fill in for Tara's lack of a go-to 5th or 6th player in the rotation.
- Cam is averaging 7 minutes more a game and is now just under a 30 minute average.  I'm not convinced that the team is better off with her playing 30+ minutes (a tired or overly-cautious Cam trying to avoid fouls isn't necessarily better than our other talented bigs playing those minutes), but it's good to see she can play extended minutes in case Tara may need her to (e.g., in an overtime tournament game).
- Last season the top 3 averaged 31 minutes. This season it is 33 minutes.  
- Last season the top 4 averaged 29 minutes. This season it is 31 minutes. 
- Last season the top 5 averaged 28 minutes. This season it is 29 minutes (with Talana's numbers deflated due to the injury).  So there are actually fewer minutes to dole out to other players this season.  But last season the #5 was Cam and her 22 minutes are worth at least 30 minutes in efficiency for any other player. Also, the #5 is Agnes and there are two Pac 12 games that Tara didn't play Agnes at all. 
So it seems that last season Tara was more firm on her top 5, while this year it is Haley, Cam, Hannah and Talana + ? (whomever matches up best with the opponent).

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - M T - 01-31-2023

So, do you think Brink is playing more minutes because the games are closer, or are the games closer because she is playing more minutes?

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - Hieronymus - 02-01-2023

(01-31-2023, 11:56 PM)M T Wrote:  So, do you think Brink is playing more minutes because the games are closer, or are the games closer because she is playing more minutes?

I think it's also partly she has been better at staying out of foul trouble this year - so she is available for more minutes

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - martyup - 02-01-2023

(02-01-2023, 09:03 AM)Hieronymus Wrote:  I think it's also partly she has been better at staying out of foul trouble this year - so she is available for more minutes

[Image: nailed-it.gif]

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - OCcardinal - 02-01-2023

(01-31-2023, 11:56 PM)M T Wrote:  So, do you think Brink is playing more minutes because the games are closer, or are the games closer because she is playing more minutes?
Great question. It would take a far better basketball analyst than me to give you a good answer, but since this is a chat board I'll go ahead and share my view anyway.  I think playing Cam extended minutes is detrimental.  Here's some anecdotes that seem to support that view:

The two Pac 12 games in which Cam played the most minutes were also the two games with Stanford's worst scoring margins, USC and Oregon State.

USC
Cam's Minutes 35
Cam's +/- -2
Team Scoring Margin -9
Margin at end of 3Q -10
Margin Improvement in 4Q +1
[b]Cam's Minutes thru 3Q [/b]26
Cam's Efficiency thru 3Q 19
Cam's Efficiency per min thru 3Q 0.73
[b]Cam's Minutes in 4Q [/b]10
Cam's Efficiency in 4Q 5
Cam's Efficiency per min 4Q 0.5

Oregon State
Cam's Minutes 35


Cam's +/- -5
Team Scoring Margin +3
Margin at end of 3Q 0
Margin Improvement in 4Q +3
[b]Cam's Minutes thru 3Q [/b]26
Cam's Efficiency thru 3Q 22
Cam's Efficiency per min thru 3Q 0.85
[b]Cam's Minutes in 4Q [/b]10
Cam's Efficiency in 4Q 4
Cam's Efficiency per min 4Q 0.40

In both games Cam's efficiency rating dropped in the 4Q and in both games she ended up with a negative +/-.

Now compare that to the UCLA game, a game against a good team that was tight through Q3, but in which Cam played only 27 minutes:

UCLA
Cam's Minutes 27
Cam's +/- +20
Team Scoring Margin +13
Margin at end of 3Q +2
Margin Improvement in 4Q +11
[b]Cam's Minutes thru 3Q [/b]18
Cam's Efficiency thru 3Q 9
Cam's Efficiency per min thru 3Q 0.5
[b]Cam's Minutes in 4Q [/b]9
Cam's Efficiency in 4Q 16
Cam's Efficiency per min 4Q 1.78


As you can see Cam played only limited minutes through 3 quarters (18) and then she and the team were able to blow open the tight game in the 4th (a +2 margin became +11). Further, unlike the other two games above, Cam's efficiency in the 4Q grew (from 0.5 per min to a whopping 1.78 per minute). 

Obviously there are a lot of factors other than Cam's minutes that impact the outcome of games. But anecdotally, I am not seeing evidence that the team is better off in playing Cam extended minutes in tight games.  Of course a tight game can end up a blowout loss without Cam out there, so perhaps that is Tara's reasoning. Alternatively, perhaps Tara is getting Cam used to playing extended minutes so the 4Q declines will not occur in the future.
(02-01-2023, 09:03 AM)Hieronymus Wrote:  
(01-31-2023, 11:56 PM)M T Wrote:  So, do you think Brink is playing more minutes because the games are closer, or are the games closer because she is playing more minutes?

I think it's also partly she has been better at staying out of foul trouble this year - so she is available for more minutes
Her foul rate is indeed much improved, but I think that is a limited factor. Last season, Cam averaged 25 minutes in the five regular season Pac 12 games in which she had 4 or 5 fouls and 21 minutes in the 10 games where she had 3 or fewer fouls. Granted, committing two quick fouls in the first half could get her benched for a while, but there were plenty of games where Cam played limited minutes without fouls being a factor at all.

RE: WBB: Stanford 62 -- Oregon 54 - M T - 02-01-2023

Often the last few minutes of a close game are very different than all the rest of the game.  So, comparing Q4 to  Q1 to Q3 is rather suspect.  For instance, any post will get fewer opportunities per minute for blocks in Q4 than in Q1.  Something like the so-called "efficiency" is going to be impacted in Q4.
But since you did it, I'll continue. 

For the USC game,  when Cam was in the game for 3Q, she had a +/- of -3  (-2 for full game minus the +1 for playing the full Q4), while the team without Cam was -6 through 3Q (-9 from the score minus the -3 when Cam was in (her 3Q +/-)).  So the team fared worse with her out for the first 3Q. 
Cam (and the team) was +1 in Q4, so she & the team did relatively better with her in Q4 than she and it did with her through 3 quarters.  
Seems opposite to what you're suggesting.

For the OSU game, Cam's +/- through Q3 was -8, while the team's was 0.  In Q4, Cam's and the team's +/- was +3.
Again Cam and the team did relatively better with her in Q4 than she and it did through 3 quarters.
Seems opposite to what you're suggesting.


I certainly think Cam is playing more in close games because she's usually the most effective player and she's not being limited by foul trouble.  The only situation I'd expect she'd need to sit some for protection would be against maul-ball teams.

I personally am very impressed that Cam has shown the will power to overcome her previous tendency to foul.  That plus her improved foul shooting makes her even more valuable to Stanford and to whatever pro teams that get her.