WBB: Stanford 68 ASU 60 - Printable Version
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RE: WBB: Stanford vs. ASU 3pm Sunday - TheFarm07 - 01-03-2021
(01-03-2021, 07:28 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(01-03-2021, 04:30 PM)teejers1 Wrote: I wonder if Coach Tara even realizes she singles out Prechtel for punitive PT decisions.
Seriously, the end of Q1 was a joke (and not a funny one). The team just commits 4 turnovers (none by Prechtel); and then on ASU's last possession, Kiana makes a foolish reach in foul with a few seconds left. All of those transgressions have no repercussions. It's only when Prechtel is called for a foul - which was a very dubious call - with .4 seconds left that Tara feels compelled to go to the bench and sub in Belibi for Prechtel's mistake (which, btw, was not a foul).
But even if it were, c'mon . . .
For some reason, Prechtel is in Tara's 'house.
P.S. Belibi looks great out there.
Noticed that no one here commented on the above - no surprise, really.
But I post the below just so you all know that I'm not the only one who is seeing things a certain way.
The official reporter on the Rivals site had this today, among other things, after today's ASU game:
"Ashten Prechtel will get an opportunity to take on more minutes in Brink's absence but it's my opinion that her relationship with VanDerveer is out of sync right now. I think Prechtel is playing with one eye on VanDerveer, waiting to be taken out after a mistake. I may not be an FBI profiler but my scouting report of Prechtel's body language is that she is not confident and it's hard for her to find a rhythm right now."
That's a delicate (and non-coach-focused) way to phrase it . . .
I am not going to speculate on the current status of the relationship between Tara and Prechtel or the reasoning behind Tara's willingness to pull her from the game so quickly, but IMO, Prechtel has a high upside that should not sit on the bench. She has shooting ability, but she also has size in the paint on both ends of the court. We already saw glimpses of her potential last year and though Brink has made such a big splash so immediately, I think Prechtel is deserved of playing time whenever the opportunity presents itself.
I am too mystified about why Tara is not giving her more minutes, I think we are a better team with a confident Prechtel. As shown today, when given the chance, she can contribute with her 3/4 shooting.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. ASU 3pm Sunday - mbdude - 01-03-2021
(01-03-2021, 08:32 PM)TheFarm07 Wrote:(01-03-2021, 07:28 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(01-03-2021, 04:30 PM)teejers1 Wrote: I wonder if Coach Tara even realizes she singles out Prechtel for punitive PT decisions.
Seriously, the end of Q1 was a joke (and not a funny one). The team just commits 4 turnovers (none by Prechtel); and then on ASU's last possession, Kiana makes a foolish reach in foul with a few seconds left. All of those transgressions have no repercussions. It's only when Prechtel is called for a foul - which was a very dubious call - with .4 seconds left that Tara feels compelled to go to the bench and sub in Belibi for Prechtel's mistake (which, btw, was not a foul).
But even if it were, c'mon . . .
For some reason, Prechtel is in Tara's 'house.
P.S. Belibi looks great out there.
Noticed that no one here commented on the above - no surprise, really.
But I post the below just so you all know that I'm not the only one who is seeing things a certain way.
The official reporter on the Rivals site had this today, among other things, after today's ASU game:
"Ashten Prechtel will get an opportunity to take on more minutes in Brink's absence but it's my opinion that her relationship with VanDerveer is out of sync right now. I think Prechtel is playing with one eye on VanDerveer, waiting to be taken out after a mistake. I may not be an FBI profiler but my scouting report of Prechtel's body language is that she is not confident and it's hard for her to find a rhythm right now."
That's a delicate (and non-coach-focused) way to phrase it . . .
I am not going to speculate on the current status of the relationship between Tara and Prechtel or the reasoning behind Tara's willingness to pull her from the game so quickly, but IMO, Prechtel has a high upside that should not sit on the bench. She has shooting ability, but she also has size in the paint on both ends of the court. We already saw glimpses of her potential last year and though Brink has made such a big splash so immediately, I think Prechtel is deserved of playing time whenever the opportunity presents itself.
I am too mystified about why Tara is not giving her more minutes, I think we are a better team with a confident Prechtel. As shown today, when given the chance, she can contribute with her 3/4 shooting.
It's difficult to play agressively and with confidence when you get pulled when you make a mistake. I thought the substitution at end of 1st qtr was overboard
and the reporter said Brink's absence - how long an absence?
RE: WBB: Stanford 68 ASU 60 - TheFarm07 - 01-03-2021
Interesting to hear Tara's comments in the postgame press conference:
"Ashten is capable of a lot more. She could help us a lot more. I thought when Fran and Ashten were together that was a good combination"
RE: WBB: Stanford 68 ASU 60 - Softball Fan - 01-03-2021
Earlier in the season I commented Prechtel didn't seem to play with "energy and enthusiasm". Tonight she looked good on some of her shots. But to me it looked like she doesn't want to box out and battle for rebounds. If the ball comes to her she will try to grab it but I don't see any where near the aggression displayed by Brink and Belibi. I hope next week she comes into the game with guns blazing.
RE: WBB: Stanford 68 ASU 60 - 81alum - 01-03-2021
For those who did not watch the press conference, there was this in response to a question about Brink:
"She's going to be evaluated tomorrow and we are all going to keep our fingers crossed. She's doing better and we are hoping that she is going to be able to play but I know they will be very conservative with her so other people are just going to have to step up...."
Make of it what you will.
RE: WBB: Stanford 68 ASU 60 - BostonCard - 01-03-2021
Both of the following statements are true:
1) Coaches are human and are subject to the same cognitive biases that anyone else is; they make mistakes too.
2) As a fan, I am privy to a fraction of the info the coaches have (and also, I have a fraction of the experience coaching a basketball team, if that) that the coaches do.
That is why I generally offer broad deference to the coaching staff on most questions, particularly staffs that have shown time and again that they are among the best in the business. I agree the Prechtel situation is a bit curious, and I hope that this is a case of me not having all the info than the coaches not handling the situation well.
BC
RE: WBB: Stanford 68 ASU 60 - teejers1 - 01-03-2021
(01-03-2021, 09:15 PM)TheFarm07 Wrote: Interesting to hear Tara's comments in the postgame press conference:
"Ashten is capable of a lot more. She could help us a lot more. I thought when Fran and Ashten were together that was a good combination"
Yes. The entire post-game presser from Tara was interesting.
And on that, I just have to say that I love her post-game commentary, which is generally right on the mark re: game and competing during Covid. I commend all to catch Tara's post-game comments. They are almost always nails.
BTW, she essentially admitted that at crunch time she is going with the players she knows: Kiana, Hulls, Haley, Wilson (not sure if she mentioned Fran in that grouping, though she was obviously pleased overall with Fran's game today). Tara also said the team missed Cam tonight - and I think that's right. It would not surprise me in the least to see Cam finishing most/all close games, as the season progresses.
P.S. PaloAlto - agree that Prechtel needs to be more aggressive in going after (and then protecting the ball) on rebounds. Given her limited minutes, Prechtel's production was very good tonight on points and rebounds . . . but it could have been a bit better.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. ASU 3pm Sunday - StanFanFam13 - 01-03-2021
(01-03-2021, 07:28 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(01-03-2021, 04:30 PM)teejers1 Wrote: I wonder if Coach Tara even realizes she singles out Prechtel for punitive PT decisions.
Seriously, the end of Q1 was a joke (and not a funny one). The team just commits 4 turnovers (none by Prechtel); and then on ASU's last possession, Kiana makes a foolish reach in foul with a few seconds left. All of those transgressions have no repercussions. It's only when Prechtel is called for a foul - which was a very dubious call - with .4 seconds left that Tara feels compelled to go to the bench and sub in Belibi for Prechtel's mistake (which, btw, was not a foul).
But even if it were, c'mon . . .
For some reason, Prechtel is in Tara's 'house.
P.S. Belibi looks great out there.
Noticed that no one here commented on the above - no surprise, really.
But I post the below just so you all know that I'm not the only one who is seeing things a certain way.
The official reporter on the Rivals site had this today, among other things, after today's ASU game:
"Ashten Prechtel will get an opportunity to take on more minutes in Brink's absence but it's my opinion that her relationship with VanDerveer is out of sync right now. I think Prechtel is playing with one eye on VanDerveer, waiting to be taken out after a mistake. I may not be an FBI profiler but my scouting report of Prechtel's body language is that she is not confident and it's hard for her to find a rhythm right now."
That's a delicate (and non-coach-focused) way to phrase it . . .
I don't disagree with your assessment that Prechtel is definitely on quite a short leash. She was a favorite of mine last year, and I'm still rooting for her this year, so I'll reveal my bias in saying it's an unnecessarily short leash, and she's been on it for quite some time. Last year, when Belibi was far less developed and making some egregious freshman mistakes, Tara would often leave her in, and I wondered if that was connected to how late Fran started playing basketball and perhaps Tara's belief that her ceiling was much higher if only she was given the chance to develop.
That said, I seem to remember that Prechtel was given the hook pretty quickly in many games last year, and even so, in the home game against Colorado, Tara drew up the play and called her number to make the shot that took us to overtime. One of my favorite things about Prechtel is that she seems to show up most when she is needed most, and Tara has sometimes played her in ways that recognize that as well—she is by no means saved for garbage time. It's hard for me to puzzle out what those mixed messages say.
The other thing that confuses me is what I perceive of Prechtel's personality: well-spoken but a little reticent, earnest and eager to please, but as you (and others) have noted, without the confidence of some of her teammates at present. When I think of Tara's clashes with players in the past, fiery characters like Ros Gold-Onwude come to mind. It's easier to see a coach clashing with a brash or opinionated player, or perhaps one who she perceives as not giving the maximum amount of effort. Obviously we do not see what happens in practice and off the court, but I see none of that in Prechtel, who truly seems to be a team player. I'm honestly unsure of where the conflict might be.
Lastly, I know you have speculated in the past about Prechtel transferring if she feels unappreciated or underutilized. While I realize it's possible she might do so as a purely basketball-based decision, she has, as others have pointed out, the value of a Stanford education to consider. What's more, this sophomore class seems to be more bonded than almost any other I can recall in recent years. All four seem to care really deeply for one another. I hold some hope that that's another reason she might stick with us.
RE: WBB: Stanford 68 ASU 60 - 2006alum - 01-03-2021
I guess the burden of being #1 in the country is a new bevy of bandwagon Monday morning point guarding - where were you all when we were fighting and scraping over the past half decade! (But seriously, it's really lovely to have so many folks focused on our women's team again.)
Work has kept me too busy to watch the games in anything close to real time, and I'm only halfway through the Arizona game now, but while Prechtel has some gorgeous offensive moves and can be a great low post shot blocker, but she's still a bit of a liability in a motion offense (both in terms of moving screens and in terms of quickness) and not especially deft at handling clogged paint on either offense or defense. Right now, I view her as a slightly improved Shannon Coffee who is best situated at the high post on offense and the low post on defense. She's also very good at set plays, which this offense doesn't run a lot of (with that Colorado last-second clutch shot the perfect example of what Prechtel excels at!)
The problem is that we don't need her much on at the high post given our exceptionally strong contingent of guards, and she's still a liability in the low post on D. Indeed, as I now pay closer attention to it thanks to everyone's focus on her play, I've noticed a number of "freshman mistakes" that she's still making around the basket on both sides of the court, ones that for the most part Fran is working her way out of, and Brink has largely transcended altogether already.
That's not to say Prechtel doesn't still have brobdingnagian upside, but she's on a team where the starting lineup features recruits ranked #1, #7, #14, #18, and #40 (Wilson, who was underranked because she changed schools and coasts but was still a McD's A-A). And that doesn't even count Brink! So she's facing exactly what I'd expect from a sophomore ranked somewhere around 20-25 in the country in a slightly weaker than average recruiting class coming into #1 team led by some very, very seasoned top players. When I think of other similarly situated players in their sophomore years, her level of game time is pretty similar to someone like Nadia Fingall, who averaged 11.7 minutes her sophomore year. And unlike Fingall's sophomore year, we have a far more stacked lineup these days!
In short, I'm not surprised that with this much talent on the court that she's fighting for minutes; the bigger surprise is simply my delight that we have such a problem, because for the longest time Tara has been trying to make lemonade out of lemons with large recruiting gaps, so this has been a welcome issue to be facing! Watch teams like UConn, Baylor, South Carolina, and Oregon, and it's the exact same kinds of problems: players who are somewhere around 7th or 8th of the bench could make a very reasonable case that they're not being utilized enough.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. ASU 3pm Sunday - M T - 01-04-2021
(01-03-2021, 04:46 PM)crackpot Wrote:The announcers must know "Melinda Barlow" quite well, at least that's how they introduced her just before tip-off.(01-03-2021, 04:40 PM)martyup Wrote: Missy is a beast.
But, hey, she has a wonderful personality!!!
<cough, gag, cough>
(01-03-2021, 05:28 PM)TheFarm07 Wrote:(01-03-2021, 05:24 PM)martyup Wrote: I guess you should expect it when your ranked #1, but I can't stand when the commentators are seemingly cheering for the upset.
I think they just want a competitive game and usually root for the team that's trailing to make a comeback, so they can have something to talk about, but it is annoying, especially when you are the team that's leading. :)
How have you missed UConn games on ESPN? Oh, "they" are the PAC-12 announcers, not the ESPN announcers.
I'll take Stanford being good enough to be #1 over having the announcers and refs on our side.
RE: WBB: Stanford 68 ASU 60 - teejers1 - 01-04-2021
(01-03-2021, 10:51 PM)2006alum Wrote: I guess the burden of being #1 in the country is a new bevy of bandwagon Monday morning point guarding - where were you all when we were fighting and scraping over the past half decade! (But seriously, it's really lovely to have so many folks focused on our women's team again.)
Work has kept me too busy to watch the games in anything close to real time, and I'm only halfway through the Arizona game now, but while Prechtel has some gorgeous offensive moves and can be a great low post shot blocker, but she's still a bit of a liability in a motion offense (both in terms of moving screens and in terms of quickness) and not especially deft at handling clogged paint on either offense or defense. Right now, I view her as a slightly improved Shannon Coffee who is best situated at the high post on offense and the low post on defense. She's also very good at set plays, which this offense doesn't run a lot of (with that Colorado last-second clutch shot the perfect example of what Prechtel excels at!)
The problem is that we don't need her much on at the high post given our exceptionally strong contingent of guards, and she's still a liability in the low post on D. Indeed, as I now pay closer attention to it thanks to everyone's focus on her play, I've noticed a number of "freshman mistakes" that she's still making around the basket on both sides of the court, ones that for the most part Fran is working her way out of, and Brink has largely transcended altogether already.
That's not to say Prechtel doesn't still have of immense proportions upside, but she's on a team where the starting lineup features recruits ranked #1, #7, #14, #18, and #40 (Wilson, who was underranked because she changed schools and coasts but was still a McD's A-A). And that doesn't even count Brink! So she's facing exactly what I'd expect from a sophomore ranked somewhere around 20-25 in the country in a slightly weaker than average recruiting class coming into #1 team led by some very, very seasoned top players. When I think of other similarly situated players in their sophomore years, her level of game time is pretty similar to someone like Nadia Fingall, who averaged 11.7 minutes her sophomore year. And unlike Fingall's sophomore year, we have a far more stacked lineup these days!
In short, I'm not surprised that with this much talent on the court that she's fighting for minutes; the bigger surprise is simply my delight that we have such a problem, because for the longest time Tara has been trying to make lemonade out of lemons with large recruiting gaps, so this has been a welcome issue to be facing! Watch teams like UConn, Baylor, South Carolina, and Oregon, and it's the exact same kinds of problems: players who are somewhere around 7th or 8th of the bench could make a very reasonable case that they're not being utilized enough.
I agree with a lot of your post - most notably the reality that Prechtel is seeking minutes amid a stacked lineup; so minutes can be hard to come by (for lots of players). And believe me, I'm not saying that Prechtel is better than the other posts and should be playing starter minutes; however, I am questioning the disparate treatment that I see (but perhaps others do not). It strikes me as such an outlier.
And finally, I don't think you give Prechtel quite the credit she deserves vis a vis former players. She is significantly better than Coffee, and I'd take Prechtel over Fingall in a New York minute (though I loved Fingall's toughness).
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. ASU 3pm Sunday - M T - 01-04-2021
(01-03-2021, 06:05 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Do they have +/- stats for women's college games?
I'd be interested in seeing those numbers.
GoStanford.com game stats do not.
ESPNw stats do not.
StatBroadcast ("Live Stats" for Stanford) does. I will say that people reported poor stats for some of the WBB games here, at least during the game. Today's game vs ASU is here. Their Stanford games can be found here.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. ASU 3pm Sunday - teejers1 - 01-04-2021
(01-04-2021, 03:40 AM)M T Wrote:(01-03-2021, 06:05 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Do they have +/- stats for women's college games?
I'd be interested in seeing those numbers.
GoStanford.com game stats do not.
ESPNw stats do not.
StatBroadcast ("Live Stats" for Stanford) does. I will say that people reported poor stats for some of the WBB games here, at least during the game. Today's game vs ASU is here. Their Stanford games can be found here.
Thanks. Even though stats are not accurate (I saw a couple errors just looking at one player entry), if they are directionally accurate they are somewhat interesting.
RE: WBB: Stanford 68 ASU 60 - M T - 01-04-2021
For decades, I've seen Tara substitute quickly for players that make a poor play (foul, turnover, failure to defend properly, etc.). Saying that she has a quick hook for any particular player seems odd. She does it for all her players, but maybe not every time. I've always figured that a foul or turnover is a sign the player may be tired. After a foul, you want to avoid the player getting upset and making another foul.
Here's the players subbed out during the ASU game and recent events involving them. I generally didn't go back to look at the events leading up to the replacement.
Stanford sub outs vs ASU 1/3/21
(Note: subs are often poorly recorded.)
1st
5:23 Wilson: I see no reason.
2:57 Lexie,Lacie, Belibi. Up 15-2, this is likely to get experience for others.
1:32 Wilson: 1st chance to sub after a Wilson TO at 1:55
0:37 Jones: Jones TO
0:00 Prechtel: Foul by Prechtel
2nd
8:28 Jana VG: First chance to replace after foul at 9:31 (Sub not listed at GoStanford.com)
7:23 Lexie & Jones: Foul by Jones
3:36 Jump, Belibi, Jerome.
1:36 Wilson: TO by Wilson at 2:24
0:13 Prechtel: Foul by Prechtel.
3rd
7:16 Belibi
6:57 Lexie. Foul by Lexie
5:09 Prechtel & Wilson
4th
6:22 Jones & Belibi. Belibi TO (2nd in 32 seconds)
4:52 Prechtel & Jump: Prechtel foul at 5:19
4:05 Wilson. Wilson foul
I think a typical Prechtel (offensive) play is at 2Q 3:36. On an inbounds, she cuts to the block and gets the ball with no one in front of her for a layup, which she tried with two hands. She missed, but that happens. What was poor was that she didn't get in position for a rebound. She turns to run up court and has her back to the basket when the rebound comes down and so lets two smaller players pin her in. Then Lacie scrambles for the ball and winds up getting tied up, but watch Prechtel. She gets in position for Lacie to dump the ball out to her, but then she doesn't block out another shorter ASU player who steps in front of her. It almost seems she's used to practicing without opponents.
Prechtel is good, and can be better. But on this team, she's a backup. She got subbed in with Jump & Lacie in the first quarter.
Regarding the foul calling. The refs kept falling for ASU #10's flops. Watch how she throws her head back time after time. She jumped into players and then threw her head back and fell away from the opponent, like the opponent pushed them. I've pointed it out before, if a player's head leads their body, they are flopping. If their head trails their body, they were pushed. (2Q 5:19)
Barlow properly did not call out-of-bounds at 2nd Qtr 3:57 when an ASU player's toe was just inside the court and raised heel had to be over the side line. (See it in the replay after 3:37)
Bad call by the male ref with bad mask hygiene at 2nd Qtr 3:37. Had it been called properly, this would have been a Prechtel TO.
Why didn't a ref call the trip at 2:23?
One of the really bad calls by the ref and announcer was at 0:04.5 in the 2nd Q. ASU screener sets both feet and then jumps 2-3 to her left in front of Lexie who was going under her, resulting in the collision a good 4' from the ASU player cutting around the screener. Anyone care to guess the ref that made the call from the one angle all the way across the court who couldn't see the jump in her line of sight? Indeed, you can see Missy looking away from the incident at the time of the foul, looking back when the collision occurred. The other female ref who was closer & had a good angle started to move her left arm to signal a charge, and then instead pointed to Missy. So, the foul was called against Stanford.
3Q 7:16 was when the ASU player extended her arms & hit Belibi in the throat.
Quote:Art. 2. To establish or maintain legal rebounding position, a player shall not:
b. Extend either or both shoulders, hips, or knees, or extend either or both
arms or elbows fully or partially in a position other than vertical, so that the freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with any of these body parts occurs
Clearly an uncalled foul. I don't mind that the refs didn't rule it excessive, and they're not allowed to call an ordinary foul after a review, but I'm disappointed they didn't find a foul to make up for what they missed.
(The incompetent announcers babbled about intent. The rule for "intentional foul" does not mention intent.)
A similar incident happens at 3Q 3:23 when a player hits Belibi in the head with an elbow, not during play and not intentionally.
Rebounding: Stanford got a very impressive 43% of the available rebounds under their own basket and an ok 69% of the available rebounds under their opponent's basket.
Turnovers: I believe the turnovers are part of the high tempo offense that Stanford has. It is a lot less risky to throw the ball to a stationary player when you're stationary. While I wish they'd have fewer turnovers, to me a higher number is a consequence of what is helping them win.
RE: WBB: Stanford 68 ASU 60 - 2006alum - 01-04-2021
(01-04-2021, 02:56 AM)teejers1 Wrote: She is significantly better than Coffee, and I'd take Prechtel over Fingall in a New York minute (though I loved Fingall's toughness).
I agree with your subjective assessment of her potential. But right now, the stats don't lie. Compare Fingall's sophomore campaign to Prechtel's:
Fingall: 11.7 min, .45 FG%, .42 3PT%, 3.3 PTs, .69 FT%, 3.1 RBs, 1.5 F, 0.6 TO, .40 B
Prechtel: 11.2 min, .39 FG%, .33 3PT%, 4.6 PTs, .46 FT%, 3.2 RBs, 1.8 F, 1.0 TO, .78 B
Objectively, the player w/ the second stat line scores slightly more points and has slightly more blocks per minutes played, but she scores less efficiently from all parts of the court (inside, outside, and at the line), she's no more of a rebounder, and she generates more fouls and turnovers. And sophomore year Fingall was playing behind more seasoned bigs like Alanna Smith and Kaylee Johnson, as well as an upstart freshman (Dodson), so she had the same problem Prechtel does: perfectly adequate doesn't cut it when you have All-Conference type performances coming from the bigs ahead of you.
I do hope and expect Prechtel will get better and that her ceiling will be higher than Fingall's (esp. because Fingall was never really back to 100% after her ACL tear.). But on a team this stacked, I just can't fault a coach for pulling someone making rookie mistakes and shooting <.400 when they're 6'5"!
(01-04-2021, 03:40 AM)M T Wrote:(01-03-2021, 06:05 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Do they have +/- stats for women's college games?
I'd be interested in seeing those numbers.
GoStanford.com game stats do not.
ESPNw stats do not.
StatBroadcast ("Live Stats" for Stanford) does. I will say that people reported poor stats for some of the WBB games here, at least during the game. Today's game vs ASU is here. Their Stanford games can be found here.
Thanks for this link, MT - great stats site to draw on in the future!
RE: WBB: Stanford 68 ASU 60 - teejers1 - 01-04-2021
(01-04-2021, 07:52 AM)2006alum Wrote:(01-04-2021, 02:56 AM)teejers1 Wrote: She is significantly better than Coffee, and I'd take Prechtel over Fingall in a New York minute (though I loved Fingall's toughness).
I agree with your subjective assessment of her potential. But right now, the stats don't lie. Compare Fingall's sophomore campaign to Prechtel's:
Fingall: 11.7 min, .45 FG%, .42 3PT%, 3.3 PTs, .69 FT%, 3.1 RBs, 1.5 F, 0.6 TO, .40 B
Prechtel: 11.2 min, .39 FG%, .33 3PT%, 4.6 PTs, .46 FT%, 3.2 RBs, 1.8 F, 1.0 TO, .78 B
Objectively, the player w/ the second stat line scores slightly more points and has slightly more blocks per minutes played, but she scores less efficiently from all parts of the court (inside, outside, and at the line), she's no more of a rebounder, and she generates more fouls and turnovers. And sophomore year Fingall was playing behind more seasoned bigs like Alanna Smith and Kaylee Johnson, as well as an upstart freshman (Dodson), so she had the same problem Prechtel does: perfectly adequate doesn't cut it when you have All-Conference type performances coming from the bigs ahead of you.
I do hope and expect Prechtel will get better and that her ceiling will be higher than Fingall's (esp. because Fingall was never really back to 100% after her ACL tear.). But on a team this stacked, I just can't fault a coach for pulling someone making rookie mistakes and shooting <.400 when they're 6'5"!
(01-04-2021, 03:40 AM)M T Wrote:(01-03-2021, 06:05 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Do they have +/- stats for women's college games?
I'd be interested in seeing those numbers.
GoStanford.com game stats do not.
ESPNw stats do not.
StatBroadcast ("Live Stats" for Stanford) does. I will say that people reported poor stats for some of the WBB games here, at least during the game. Today's game vs ASU is here. Their Stanford games can be found here.
Thanks for this link, MT - great stats site to draw on in the future!
Your comparative stats are really limited (especially for Prechtel's sophomore season). Plus, it doesn't account for things like "Fingall did not have an outside shot to speak of, allowing teams to sag off completely."
As for MT, if you watch the game and don't think there has been disparate treatment, then we just won't agree. Prechtel played 10 minutes; was 3-4; and 3 boards (MT's linked stats missed on defensive rebound, at minimum); and 1 TO in 10 minutes. Belibi played 3X the time and had a great game - 20+ points double double . . . and 5 TOs. Who knows what Prechtel's line would have been with 30 minutes - maybe close to Fran's numbers (though I doubt it because Prech doesn't have the game stamina).
Again, none of this is to say that Prechtel should be playing as much as Belibi or Brink. Rather, it's just to point out that Prechtel is climbing a steeper hill to make her case, due to seemingly disparate PT decisions by the coach. Coaches can have confirmation bias, too. In fact, you see it at all levels of competition. And I respectfully submit that if Belibi or Cam believed they would be pulled after their first mistake, their play would be adversely affected.
RE: WBB: Stanford 68 ASU 60 - 2006alum - 01-04-2021
(01-04-2021, 11:42 AM)teejers1 Wrote:(01-04-2021, 07:52 AM)2006alum Wrote: Fingall: 11.7 min, .45 FG%, .42 3PT%, 3.3 PTs, .69 FT%, 3.1 RBs, 1.5 F, 0.6 TO, .40 BYour comparative stats are really limited (especially for Prechtel's sophomore season). Plus, it doesn't account for things like "Fingall did not have an outside shot to speak of, allowing teams to sag off completely."
Prechtel: 11.2 min, .39 FG%, .33 3PT%, 4.6 PTs, .46 FT%, 3.2 RBs, 1.8 F, 1.0 TO, .78 B
Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about whether 42% 3 pt shooting and 1/3 of made shots coming from beyond the arc constitutes "an outside shot to speak of." My memory is that Fingall was often effective at the high post precisely because she could step back and make the trey.
RE: WBB: Stanford 68 ASU 60 - TheFarm07 - 01-04-2021
Re: Prechtel's playing time. I agree with teejers that I am not arguing either that she should be getting more minutes relative to Brink or Belibi, but I believe she should be getting more time relative to Jerome (especially in games like yesterday's when Brink was injured and Haley was dealing with foul trouble when we needed another big besides Fran). I think she adds more offensively than Alyssa at this point and I believe her ceiling is higher as well.
Re: Prechtel v. Fingall. Nadia was a fine contributor, but I also wanted to add a couple extra data points. Nadia dramatically improved her 3PT% from her freshman year (15% to 42%) and her willingness to shoot the three (13 attempts to 31) into her sophomore year, but Ashten is working off a higher floor from last season (34% from 3PT range and 73 three point attempts her freshman year -- more than twice Fingall's attempts even in her second year) so there is more of an expectation that Ashten can and is able to shoot from long range than Nadia coming into their respective sophomore years. Also, looking at just their freshman years, Nadia reached double digits (points-wise) in 6 of the 36 games she played in while Ashten achieved that mark twice as often (12) and in fewer games (32).
RE: WBB: Stanford 68 ASU 60 - 81alum - 01-04-2021
Prectel is a much better shooter than Belibi, but Belibi is a much better finisher than Prechtel. I think which one is in the game might depend on what is needed. Belibi really can't play in an all-out offense since she is not a credible threat to shoot from mid or long range. Prechtel can. So if the opponent is playing a tight zone and refusing to let us come into the paint, then Prechtel would be the better player to have in the game. But so long as we can get the ball inside, Belibi is clearly better.
That said, Belibi and Prechtel have nearly the same number of assists per minute played. And their turnovers are very comparable too.
The two biggest differences are that Belibi has fewer fouls than Prechtel despite playing almost twice as much, and Belibi is shooting 60% to Prechtel's 39%.
On the later, you could say it is apples to oranges, since Prechtel shoots from distance more and Belibi has more layups. But that is partly the point. Belibi is able to get herself inside for high percentage shots. And she has been using her body to maneuver under the basket to get better angles in a way that Fingall famously never could. Belibi has turned into a very special inside player.
Baez87 - Baez87 - 01-05-2021
I enjoy the analysis and reflections that are shared on the Cardboard, but I’ll have to admit that I tire of the overly-persistent, can’t-let-go Monday Morning Quarterbacking that has dominated this thread.
Tara is the coach, she is responsible for all the practices, game prep, and game-time coaching. I don’t always agree with her coaching decisions or her treatment of players, but I give her the benefit of the doubt—she is the coach, and a very successful one at that!
We don’t know what has transpired between her and her players in practice. What we might see as a premature substitution of a player that doesn’t make the correct move might well be a response to a pattern of mis-steps stemming from practice. The substitution might be justified on events or conversations that we weren’t privy to. Tara's job is to make a "team" out of "many players." To borrow from one of her classic Tara-isms, "Basketball is a team sport. If you're into individual things, take up tennis!"
I think there is much to glean from the recent article in the Daily, which taps into the minds of Tara's players over the years. Give it a read, see what the players experienced, and you might choose to walk in Tara's moccasin before taking your point of view too seriously.
https://www.stanforddaily.com/2020/12/14/tara-vanderveer-history/