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RE: 2022 Giants thread - Phogge - 06-23-2022

Doval is a loose cannon. Rogers is a mid game long reliever. The Giants have a possible closer in their pen already. Give Leone a chance to close.

Back in our day Bobbbbbb Rodon would have started the eighth inning and if still sharp been allowed to pitch a CG. Can you imagine limiting Warren Spahn to seven innings?

I am not thrilled for what has happened to our game in the last 30 years. Pitchers have become puzzies.

RE: 2022 Giants thread - BobK - 06-23-2022

My our day my friend you sadly mean 50 years ago
Actually I was surprised he didn’t pitch the 8th. Even today.
A very bad loss yesterday.

RE: 2022 Giants thread - Maple Leaf - 06-23-2022

(06-23-2022, 07:21 AM)Phogge Wrote:  Doval is a loose cannon. Rogers is a mid game long reliever. The Giants have a possible closer in their pen already. Give Leone a chance to close.

Back in our day Bobbbbbb Rodon would have started the eighth inning and if still sharp been allowed to pitch a CG. Can you imagine limiting Warren Spahn to seven innings?

I am not thrilled for what has happened to our game in the last 30 years. Pitchers have become puzzies.

..............very rich puzzie$.

RE: 2022 Giants thread - Phogge - 06-23-2022

I forget, alas. All you Stanford Einsteins and trust fund babies think about money uber alles.

RE: 2022 Giants thread - lex24 - 06-23-2022

(06-23-2022, 07:30 AM)BobK Wrote:  My our day my friend you sadly mean 50 years ago
Actually I was surprised he didn’t pitch the 8th.  Even today.
A very bad loss yesterday.

91 pitches.  In his early days Ryan would have been through maybe the 4th….On his way to a CG 1-0 loss with 12 Ks 8 walks and about 180 pitches.  Then he’d be back on the mound on 3 days rest. Course the pitch count did eventually catch up with him. At 45…..

Part of the change is analytics.  The “third time through the order” BS.  Part is most pitchers don’t really pitch anymore. They just throw as hard as they can from pitch 1.  Part is money.  Hell, if they sent Rodon out for the 8th his agent probably would have called Harris and screamed at him.

RE: 2022 Giants thread - Phogge - 06-23-2022

Anal-itics is killing the beautiful game. Throw as hard as long as you can. Take a lot of pitches. NEVER hit and run. NEVER sacrifice. Squeeze on pain of death.

RE: 2022 Giants thread - Phogge - 06-23-2022

David Villar... Sacto, 20 HR, 58 RBI, .279. Bring him up (to the tune of lock him up)!

RE: 2022 Giants thread - Mick - 06-23-2022

(06-23-2022, 02:59 PM)lex24 Wrote:  
(06-23-2022, 07:30 AM)BobK Wrote:  My our day my friend you sadly mean 50 years ago
Actually I was surprised he didn’t pitch the 8th.  Even today.
A very bad loss yesterday.

91 pitches.  In his early days Ryan would have been through maybe the 4th….On his way to a CG 1-0 loss with 12 Ks 8 walks and about 180 pitches.  Then he’d be back on the mound on 3 days rest. Course the pitch count did eventually catch up with him.  At 45…..

Part of the change is analytics.  The “third time through the order” BS.  Part is most pitchers don’t really pitch anymore. They just throw as hard as they can from pitch 1.  Part is money.  Hell, if they sent Rodon out for the 8th his agent probably would have called Harris and screamed at him.

Nolan Ryan's stats when he faced hitters for the third and fourth time were virtually identical to his stats when he faced them the first and seond time.

RE: 2022 Giants thread - OutsiderFan - 06-24-2022

(06-23-2022, 05:23 PM)Phogge Wrote:  David Villar... Sacto, 20 HR, 58 RBI, .279. Bring him up (to the tune of lock him up)!

Like seemingly most Giants prospects, Villar has a very high strikeout rate. The theory is that is keeping him from being called up or even put on the 40.

RE: 2022 Giants thread - Phogge - 06-24-2022

Duggar traded. At least they received something in return instead of just releasing him. The Giants longterm problem is managing the gap between now and the time when the so-called "prospects" are ready. Vaun Brown, Pomares, Luciano, Schmidt, McCray, Sean Roby, etc. Matos is hurt, Bishop, Toribio and Bailey are near the Mendoza Line in Eugene.

A question for the latent general managers on this thread. The Giants need to fill three or four gaps for 2023. A real closer with real stones, a third baseman, a right handed hitting OFer and a starter. How can they do it? Prospects? brobdingnagian cash outlay? Not going to be easy.

RE: 2022 Giants thread - lex24 - 06-24-2022

(06-24-2022, 09:09 AM)Phogge Wrote:  Duggar traded. At least they received something in return instead of just releasing him. The Giants longterm problem is managing the gap between now and the time when the so-called "prospects" are ready. Vaun Brown, Pomares, Luciano, Schmidt, McCray, Sean Roby, etc. Matos is hurt, Bishop, Toribio and Bailey are near the Mendoza Line in Eugene.

A question for the latent general managers on this thread. The Giants need to fill three or four gaps for 2023. A real closer with real stones, a third baseman, a right handed hitting OFer and a starter. How can they do it? Prospects? of immense proportions cash outlay? Not going to be easy.

Third base - Giants have a prospect, David Villar. He’s never listed as one of their top prospects.  Yet he hit 20 HRs last year in Richmond (historically a tough place to hit in a tough hitting league) and has 20 HRs with an OPS over 1.000 in Sac. He’s 25. He is not on the 40.  Giants keep sticking guys like Yearmin Mercedes and Donovan Walton on the 40.   I’d rather see Villar on the 40 and called up.  Let’s see what he’s got.  He could be another good RH bat.  Or he could be Brett Pill. But they won’t know until he’s called up.  

I’ve seen enough of Donovan Watson. Can’t hit.  Has an arm like a wet noodle.

Longoria looks like he’s 60.  Bat slow.  And it takes a triple to score him from second. I’d like to see Villar up and get some ABs. Both Susan Slusher and Melissa Lockard (covers Giants minor league system for “The Athletic “) speak very highly of him. So, maybe he’s a possibility in ‘23.  If not later this year. 

Doval is fine.  If I’m the Giants, I have him spend the off season working on  a change up.  Something he can use vs lefties.  Right now he’s fastball, slider only. Both are plus pitches. If he can add a decent change up, he’s gonna be very very good. I also think the staff screwed him up a bit by having him focus on a slide step.  I get why they did it (although no one runs much these days), but he seemed to struggle with it.  I think they have told him to scrap it.  He won’t be the first closer that is easy to run on.  

I do think they will seek bullpen help at the deadline.  But so will every other contender.  Won’t be a closer - costs too much in prospects.  But depth pieces. They will also add some next year.  FA and scrap heap reclamation projects.  But I don’t expect them to sign a closer.  

As for starting pitching,  Rodon will exercise his option.  So, they will lose him. They will find someone on FA market.  But most likely a middling starter or two they can sign for 3 years or less at a “reasonable “ price. Like they did with Wood and DeSclafani. 

Giants passed on every available RH hitting OF this off season.  Despite an obvious need.  So, unless Johnson and Company change course and stop pretending they are a mid level team, I don’t expect a big splash there.

I’ll add one other need - speed.  Giants may be the slowest team I’ve ever seen. Course, half the team has some leg issue.  You could grab 4 guys off this website and beat Longoria, Belt, Flores and Crawford in a relay. Add Pederson and Ruf to the list of plodders. And of course, Tommy La Stella. Who as far as I can tell brings almost nothing to the table. His best skill historically has been low K with a decent OBP. Both not happening. He’s slow and is a liability defensively.

 Slater fastest guy on team.  I read recently he is the only Giant in top 25% speed wise.  The lack of speed hurts them defensively and offensively.  Giants don’t seem to care, however.  Walks and homers….  And GPS positioning…. 

Giants have also decided they don’t need “stars”. It’s all about process and depth. Mix, match.  Platoon.  Etc.  Grab a bunch of fringe players, dump them in Sac and slot them in when necessary.  If they fail - dump and bring up the next guy.  It’s dizzying. Some have worked out quite well. Wade last year.  Gonzalez this year.  Others have failed.  The Stuart Fairchilds and Papierskis….  

 Personally, I think you can do process and depth AND have a couple stars to anchor your lineup.
(06-24-2022, 05:40 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  
(06-23-2022, 05:23 PM)Phogge Wrote:  David Villar... Sacto, 20 HR, 58 RBI, .279. Bring him up (to the tune of lock him up)!

Like seemingly most Giants prospects, Villar has a very high strikeout rate. The theory is that is keeping him from being called up or even put on the 40.

Everyone strikes out a lot.  No one else in AAA is putting up anything close to his other numbers.  What do they have to lose by giving him a shot?  Yearmin Mercedes?  Donovan Walton.  Please…..

RE: 2022 Giants thread - old spanish trail - 06-24-2022

Agree with everything, Lex.

RE: 2022 Giants thread - Phogge - 06-24-2022

I don't agree. Doval needs a mind set adjustment. Brings up the fired KNBR guy years ago. "brain dead............"

And OF doesn't agree with our (take a look at my Villar post before yours sir) take on Villar so with that lofty thumbs down he can't possibly be any good.

They do need a closer. Been looking for one for years. Doval can't handle it per Jack Nicholson. Neither can McGee or Rogers. Try Leone first.

RE: 2022 Giants thread - Mick - 06-24-2022

(06-24-2022, 12:45 PM)Phogge Wrote:  I don't agree. Doval needs a mind set adjustment. Brings up the fired KNBR guy years ago. "brain dead............"

That was Larry Krueger, circa 2005.  Felipe Alou demanded he be fired. With respect to the Giants team on a prima facia basis, he was 100% correct. the Giants were 1st in strikeouts of 16 NL teams, 15th of 16 NL teams in walks and 12th in on-base percentage at the time, after having led the league in walks the prior year (thanks to Bonds' all-time record of 232).

Krueger said "brain-dead Carribean hitters." Did he mean Latin hitters?  Maybe.  But the Latin hitters on that team walked 8.2% of the time and the caucasian and african american hitters walked 7.7% of the time.  So factually not accurate.

Not only Felipe Alou, but Ozzie Guillen (Chisox manager at the time) demanded Krueger be punished more.  Guillen was famously lacking in plate discipline himself.  His career OBP was an awful .287.

(06-24-2022, 12:45 PM)Phogge Wrote:  And OF doesn't agree with our (take a look at my Villar post before yours sir) take on Villar so with that lofty thumbs down he can't possibly be any good.

They do need a closer. Been looking for one for years. Doval can't handle it per Jack Nicholson. Neither can McGee or Rogers. Try Leone first.

Brebbia, maybe.

RE: 2022 Giants thread - Giants - 06-24-2022

Overall, I agree Lex…

I would add two comments:

Longoria’s long-term successor at 3B is Casey Schmitt not Villar.  I think they will find another position for Villar if he can hit big league pitching. 

I am not as pessimistic about SF’s spending habits.  After the success of ‘21, I think Zaidi wanted to give the vets one last shot at glory before turning the page.  The prospects are coming but there needs to be a transition plan between now and 2024/25 when “the kids” will finally make their presence felt. That plan must include signing a big RH bat and a #2 starting pitcher.  As you have said many times, the money is there.  It is time to put it on the table - not crazy spending but thoughtful spending.  For example, Judge. :)

RE: 2022 Giants thread - old spanish trail - 06-24-2022

(06-24-2022, 12:45 PM)Phogge Wrote:  I don't agree. Doval needs a mind set adjustment. Brings up the fired KNBR guy years ago. "brain dead............"

And OF doesn't agree with our (take a look at my Villar post before yours sir) take on Villar so with that lofty thumbs down he can't possibly be any good.

They do need a closer. Been looking for one for years. Doval can't handle it per Jack Nicholson. Neither can McGee or Rogers. Try Leone first.

Nope. Way more confident in Doval than Leone.

RE: 2022 Giants thread - Phogge - 06-24-2022

What in the word "try" is not clear?

RE: 2022 Giants thread - BobK - 06-24-2022

Doval is the guy.

Good bye Duggar

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/34137446/outfielder-swap-texas-rangers-trade-willie-calhoun-san-francisco-giants-steven-duggar

RE: 2022 Giants thread - lex24 - 06-24-2022

(06-24-2022, 02:46 PM)Giants Wrote:  Overall, I agree Lex…

I would add two comments:

Longoria’s long-term successor at 3B is Casey Schmitt not Villar.  I think they will find another position for Villar if he can hit big league pitching. 

I am not as pessimistic about SF’s spending habits.  After the success of ‘21, I think Zaidi wanted to give the vets one last shot at glory before turning the page.  The prospects are coming but there needs to be a transition plan between now and 2024/25 when “the kids” will finally make their presence felt. That plan must include signing a big RH bat and a #2 starting pitcher.  As you have said many times, the money is there.  It is time to put it on the table - not crazy spending but thoughtful spending.  For example, Judge. :)

Schmitt is a couple years away. And I’d sure hate signing a guy with a .950 career OPS.  :)

Went to the game tonight.  One thing that jumps out when you see the Giants live is how incredibly slow they are.  I guess team speed isn’t part of the process.

RE: 2022 Giants thread - old spanish trail - 06-24-2022

The Giants looked slow and weak and the game was boring. Boring is not a good look. And, how did Donnie get back on the team? Aren't there any AA or AAA infielders that could show more promise? LaStella is taking up space. Can't play in the field and isn't what you would call a threat at DH.
Starting pitchers are generally doing a pretty good job, or as well as we should expect.