WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021)

WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021) - Printable Version

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RE: WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021) - M T - 10-23-2021

(10-22-2021, 07:47 PM)paloalto Wrote: I turned off my TV. I can't watch this. In all the years I've been following Cardinal volleyball I've never seen a team that makes so many unforced errors. It's one step forward, one step backward. I just don't see any net progress through the season in reducing unforced errors.

Too bad. I hope you recorded it so you can go see how it turned out.

I was out during the game and forgot to start my recording until early in the 3rd set. I don't recall ever seeing Stanford fall apart so badly as it did at the end of the 3rd, where there were many unforced errors. Stanford was in a dominant position before losing.

But Stanford turned it around. Fourth set was good, and they were awesome in the 5th set.

It didn't help to have such a homer for a PAC-12 announcer. Sigh.... He made so many missed calls, was he calling it from home?
(By the way, the late challenge was for whether the first over by WSU had actually gone over the net and touched by Stanford (yes, it was) or bounced off the net and should have been called four touches. The announcer initially thought Stanford was challenging whether there was a Stanford touch before the ball landed in bounds on the Stanford side [Huh??]. He then guessed at something else.)

-----
Some thoughts I had as I was watching:

Yes, part of the reason we enjoy sports is not knowing what the outcome will be. We cheer for our team and enjoy or suffer as the events turn out. You can't have the thrill of victory without the agony of defeat (credit: ABC Wide World of Sports). That 3rd set certainly had the agony of defeat. But, fortunately, we are Stanford fans and have much more thrill of victory than fans of other schools. An extreme disparity in Stanford's favor.

What would be fun, perhaps as a pre-season event, would be to have a scrimmage with season-ticket holders as refs & line judges rotating through.

RE: WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021) - 82 Card - 10-23-2021

(10-23-2021, 11:42 AM)M T Wrote: It didn't help to have such a homer for a PAC-12 announcer. Sigh....

It also doesn't help that the PAC-12 volleyball feed is so pixelated. Could someone donate a new cell phone?

RE: WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021) - CompSci87 - 10-23-2021

Yeah, the announcer wasn't the best, but tried hard. The most annoying thing for me was that he called everything that wasn't a full swing a "dump". Tips, offspeed shots, whatever.

It would have helped if he'd had a spotter to tell him what the call or challenge was about when he didn't know.

RE: WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021) - M T - 10-23-2021

(10-23-2021, 12:02 PM)82 Card Wrote: It also doesn't help that the PAC-12 volleyball feed is so pixelated. Could someone donate a new cell phone?

I watched that particular game as a recording from Sling (which is delivered as a stream over the Internet). It had no pixelation that I noticed. So, the problem is not in PAC-12's original signal.

It makes a lot of difference how you are watching the game: via a TV using a Xfinity set-top box that is directly wired to their coax versus on a old smart phone using some public or private wifi connecting to some stream sent from half a world away. I'd suggest you consider what locally might be causing the signal to be faulty and try to confirm/deny it is a local-to-you issue. If it isn't, then talk to your provider.

---- Parenthetically:
The PAC-12 apparently chose 1080i 30Hz as their format instead 720p 60Hz. (See my 2013 post.) Neither of those would appear pixelated. For volleyball, the blur of the ball would be a lot less in single frames if the PAC-12 had gone with 720p 60Hz. IMO, 1080i 30Hz is appropriate for landscape shots, but 720p 60Hz would be better for action, whether look for a touch in VB, a sideline call in tennis, or looking at the finish of a swimming race, or even watching water polo.

RE: WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021) - BostonCard - 10-23-2021

Is there any reason not to be shooting in 1080p now and downsampling as needed? Hell, people are starting to shoot in 4K (3840 x 2160), which has twice the horizontal and twice the vertical resolution (4x the pixels) of 1080p.

BC

RE: WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021) - M T - 10-23-2021

It is the 60Hz that I care about.

RE: WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021) - BostonCard - 10-23-2021

The 1080p standard has been 60hz since 2008.

BC

RE: WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021) - CompSci87 - 10-23-2021

(10-23-2021, 07:48 PM)BostonCard Wrote: The 1080p standard has been 60hz since 2008.

BC

MT did say 1080i originally.

RE: WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021) - joemontes - 10-24-2021

Replay of Stanford win over WSU yesterday (Fri, Oct 22, 2021):

[/url][url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urWmurz9AzA]Stanford vs Washington State | Women Volleyball Oct 22,2021 - YouTube

RE: WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021) - 82 Card - 10-24-2021

(10-23-2021, 07:14 PM)M T Wrote:
(10-23-2021, 12:02 PM)82 Card Wrote: It also doesn't help that the PAC-12 volleyball feed is so pixelated. Could someone donate a new cell phone?

I watched that particular game as a recording from Sling (which is delivered as a stream over the Internet). It had no pixelation that I noticed. So, the problem is not in PAC-12's original signal.

It makes a lot of difference how you are watching the game: via a TV using a Xfinity set-top box that is directly wired to their coax versus on a old smart phone using some public or private wifi connecting to some stream sent from half a world away. I'd suggest you consider what locally might be causing the signal to be faulty and try to confirm/deny it is a local-to-you issue. If it isn't, then talk to your provider.

---- Parenthetically:
The PAC-12 apparently chose 1080i 30Hz as their format instead 720p 60Hz. (See my 2013 post.) Neither of those would appear pixelated. For volleyball, the blur of the ball would be a lot less in single frames if the PAC-12 had gone with 720p 60Hz. IMO, 1080i 30Hz is appropriate for landscape shots, but 720p 60Hz would be better for action, whether look for a touch in VB, a sideline call in tennis, or looking at the finish of a swimming race, or even watching water polo.

I watch on a computer that's hardwired on a Gig. network. I don't have the same problem when the VB matches are on ESPN. I've watch soccer games on exactly the same setup on the same channel without having the same problem.

RE: WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021) - ca245 - 10-24-2021

(10-24-2021, 05:05 AM)82 Card Wrote:
(10-23-2021, 07:14 PM)M T Wrote:
(10-23-2021, 12:02 PM)82 Card Wrote: It also doesn't help that the PAC-12 volleyball feed is so pixelated. Could someone donate a new cell phone?

I watched that particular game as a recording from Sling (which is delivered as a stream over the Internet). It had no pixelation that I noticed. So, the problem is not in PAC-12's original signal.

It makes a lot of difference how you are watching the game: via a TV using a Xfinity set-top box that is directly wired to their coax versus on a old smart phone using some public or private wifi connecting to some stream sent from half a world away. I'd suggest you consider what locally might be causing the signal to be faulty and try to confirm/deny it is a local-to-you issue. If it isn't, then talk to your provider.

---- Parenthetically:
The PAC-12 apparently chose 1080i 30Hz as their format instead 720p 60Hz. (See my 2013 post.) Neither of those would appear pixelated. For volleyball, the blur of the ball would be a lot less in single frames if the PAC-12 had gone with 720p 60Hz. IMO, 1080i 30Hz is appropriate for landscape shots, but 720p 60Hz would be better for action, whether look for a touch in VB, a sideline call in tennis, or looking at the finish of a swimming race, or even watching water polo.

I watch on a computer that's hardwired on a Gig. network. I don't have the same problem when the VB matches are on ESPN. I've watch soccer games on exactly the same setup on the same channel without having the same problem.

The situation you describe is puzzling. I used to have pixelation on my cable feed and lag on my WiFi streaming, but those problems were fixed when Comcast added a booster to my cable line and I installed a mesh system for my WiFi. In any case, when I had my problems they were generic and not confined to Pac-12. I can now stream onto my iMac or iPad or view on cable PAC-12, ESPN, etc. without any issues.

RE: WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021) - M T - 10-26-2021

I found a reference to volleyball serving speeds of professional athletes in competition (10-90 percentile; max speed is in parentheses):

	Men	Women
Standing (Max)	42-55 km/h (62)	43-61 km/h (78)
Jump float	40-75 km/h (87)	40-62 km/h (80)
Power jump	73-104 km/h (123)	66-89 km/h (95)

At 50km/hr (toward the lower end of serving speeds), a ball travels about 0.5m (nearly 20 inches) in 1/30 of a second (the time between frames). So 10 inches at 1/60 of a second.

How much blur there is in a single frame will depend on shutter speed. At 1/100 second, the ball will travel about 0.14m (5.5 inches).

At 50km/hr, 30fps and 1/100 second shutter, there is about 14 inches where the ball isn't seen (even as a blur).
At 50km/hr, 60fps and 1/100 second shutter, there is about 4 inches where the ball isn't seen (even as a blur).

As far as 1080i30 (frames/sec; 1080i is 30 frames/sec delivered as 60 fields (half-frame)/sec), 1080p30, 1080p60, 720p60: While ATSC 3.0 allows for 1080p60, I don't know that any broadcasters are broadcasting 1080p60. As for cable providers and set-top boxes (including those like TiVo OTA that receive broadcast signals), it may be difficult to figure out the original signal as many of those providers and boxes may convert the signal from one to the other (possibly multiple times).

When I looked at this back in 2013 on Comcast, ESPN was carried in 720p60 while PAC-12 network went with 1080i30. Also, see this 2017 article.

The above link to a Youtube recording of the game doesn't show pixelation to me. (Instead, it shows signs of being converted to the 720p60 version on Youtube because of time glitches (see the repeat at 70 seconds into the video).)

Per an Aug 2021 article, about 1/3 of US households are in range of at least one station with ATSC 3.0, while only about 2M TV sets are capable of taking advantage of it (my 2019 TV is not capable of ATSC 3). The ATSC 3.0 signals will have better compression but that doesn't mean that the broadcasters will choose to broadcast 1080p60 rather than 1080p30. Even if they broadcast 1080p60, it doesn't mean that the PAC-12 network cameras would be providing that signal.

RE: WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021) - BostonCard - 10-26-2021

Thanks MT. I remember the switch to HD and the 1080i vs. 720p debate, but I figured once the technology came up to support 1080p that the transition would happen reasonably fast, especially as 4K starts to be touted as the next big thing.

BC

RE: WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021) - 82 Card - 10-26-2021

I think my problem must be a combination of refresh rate and de-interlacing. My monitors refresh at 60p. If the video is interlaced, I assume the video signal is de-interlaced at some point, reducing quality further, at least with any motion.

I just watched replay of parts of the Washington State match, this time paying attention to just the video quality. As MT described, the ball gets lost on any faster hit. To make things worse, the camera is panning most of the time, causing the whole picture to be blurry. The few times that the camera stops moving, the picture is fairly sharp.

RE: WVB: #15 Stanford @ #22 WSU (Fri, 10/22/2021) - BostonCard - 10-26-2021

I think most streaming (and, I assume, cable and OTA) broadcasts use a compression algorithm to transmit the signal. One thing I've noticed about digital compression algorithms is that they are efficient when things are not changing much from frame to frame. However, when there is a lot of action, or the camera is panning quickly, the algorithms are less efficient so they are forced to degrade quality to keep a similar size file. I think that's why the picture gets sharper when the camera stops moving.

BC