Is China liable? - Printable Version
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RE: Is China liable? - 2006alum - 04-14-2020
At least they're finally being honest about why they're adapting the ol' South Park Mantra, Blame Canada China:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/POTUSNetwork/status/1250258988324847616?s=20[/tweet]
RE: Is China liable? - magnus - 04-14-2020
Another comment jogged my memory from January to help point out another potential reason to blame China and one less reason to blame the WHO.
It wasn't only the CDC that couldn't get into China, but also the WHO scientists. I recall early on, an announcement that China had agreed to let the WHO scientists in to investigate/help. A week later, Tedros or someone high up in the organization said something to the effect of..."we're just working out the logistics. We'll be there soon". Perhaps it really was just a logistics thing, but if you're bent on blaming China it seems a convenient excuse for China to hide behind. =/
RE: Is China liable? - Snorlax94 - 04-15-2020
One weird thing about these threads is that people talk about China as if it’s this inscrutable, mysterious land from which we have no information. Maybe that was true 40 years ago, but now, at any given moment, there are many many thousands of Americans in China working and visiting. There are American scientists in China, there are American doctors in China.
For example, a friend recently shared a video on Youtube which is put on by The American Academy of Family Physicians. They interview Dr. Laura Jordhen, who is the chief of family medicine at a hospital in Shanghai. It’s now like a week old but it’s interesting to hear a doctor’s observations working on the front lines in China.
The part with Dr. Jordhen starts at 10:47
https://youtu.be/d1DFk21oIoc
Yes, governments can hide things, especially during a Lockdown, but there were many American doctors in China during the outbreak, they were aware of what was happening. Maybe they assumed the US government would actually act on all the information and warnings they received .
RE: Is China liable? - Genuine Realist - 04-15-2020
(04-15-2020, 12:51 AM)Snorlax94 Wrote: One weird thing about these threads is that people talk about China as if it’s this inscrutable, mysterious land from which we have no information. Maybe that was true 40 years ago, but now, at any given moment, there are many many thousands of Americans in China working and visiting. There are American scientists in China, there are American doctors in China.I don't see China as mysterious or inscrutable. I do see it as being governed by a ruling party that (a) minimized or deliberately misrepresented the possibility of human-to-human transmission well into January, (b) engaged in a policy of disinformation about the origins of the virus, and © failedto impose any sort of travel restriction in December when it really might have mattered.
For example, a friend recently shared a video on Youtube which is put on by The American Academy of Family Physicians. They interview Dr. Laura Jordhen, who is the chief of family medicine at a hospital in Shanghai. It’s now like a week old but it’s interesting to hear a doctor’s observations working on the front lines in China.
The part with Dr. Jordhen starts at 10:47
https://youtu.be/d1DFk21oIoc
Yes, governments can hide things, especially during a Lockdown, but there were many American doctors in China during the outbreak, they were aware of what was happening. Maybe they assumed the US government would actually act on all the information and warnings they received .
The availability of disorganized anecdotal information from American doctors and observers doesn't signify in the same way.
(04-15-2020, 08:35 AM)Genuine Realist Wrote:(04-15-2020, 12:51 AM)Snorlax94 Wrote: One weird thing about these threads is that people talk about China as if it’s this inscrutable, mysterious land from which we have no information. Maybe that was true 40 years ago, but now, at any given moment, there are many many thousands of Americans in China working and visiting. There are American scientists in China, there are American doctors in China.I don't see China as mysterious or inscrutable. I do see it as being governed by a ruling party that (a) minimized or deliberately misrepresented the possibility of human-to-human transmission well into January, (b) engaged in a policy of disinformation about the origins of the virus, and © failedto impose any sort of travel restriction in December when it really might have mattered.
For example, a friend recently shared a video on Youtube which is put on by The American Academy of Family Physicians. They interview Dr. Laura Jordhen, who is the chief of family medicine at a hospital in Shanghai. It’s now like a week old but it’s interesting to hear a doctor’s observations working on the front lines in China.
The part with Dr. Jordhen starts at 10:47
https://youtu.be/d1DFk21oIoc
Yes, governments can hide things, especially during a Lockdown, but there were many American doctors in China during the outbreak, they were aware of what was happening. Maybe they assumed the US government would actually act on all the information and warnings they received .
The availability of disorganized anecdotal information from American doctors and observers doesn't signify in the same way.
I'm going to reply to my own post, with a cut-and-paste from another Commentary article. From the text:
As for the World Health Organization, it is a repository of data and is supposed to be the global whistleblower when a threat to international public health arises. And so it has been, for example in the 2009 case of the H1N1 outbreak. On April 15 that year, a California patient took ill with a new influenza virus. On April 17 came a second case. The day after, April 18, the federal Centers for Disease Control (CDC) notified the World Health Organization (WHO) of the outbreak. On April 25, a mere 10 days after the first case emerged, the WHO declared a public health emergency of international concern.
Not this time. The first Chinese victims of 2019’s novel coronavirus began showing symptoms in the Wuhan region as early as November. It was already December 30 by the time a doctor at Wuhan Central Hospital blew the whistle in a chat-room on a new coronavirus. Only the day after word leaked out in this way did the Chinese government inform the local WHO office. Through much of January, the WHO accepted and repeated the false Chinese claim that there was no evidence of human-to-human transmission. Not until January 31, when human-to-human transmission was obvious and undeniable, did the WHO declare an emergency—more than six weeks, rather than 10 days, after the outbreak.
This seems to me a devastating critique of the Chinese response, particularly given the untrammeled holiday traffic that went on in Wuhan throughout December. This is not a 'blame Canada' situation. The full link is here - https://www.commentarymagazine.com/tod-lindberg-3/the-return-of-the-state-coronavirus/
RE: Is China liable? - cardcrimson - 04-15-2020
Several years ago, Bloomberg News, from the highest levels in the organization, killed a story on the wealth of China's elite. Then they seriously threatened the reporter and his wife.
Why is NPR, of all news organizations, publishing this story now?
https://www.npr.org/2020/04/14/828565428/bloomberg-news-killed-investigation-fired-reporter-then-sought-to-silence-his-wi
hopefully the link is now there. user error or brain cramp. . ..
RE: Is China liable? - BostonCard - 04-15-2020
(04-15-2020, 05:56 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Several years ago, Bloomberg News, from the highest levels in the organization, killed a story on the wealth of China's elite. Then they seriously threatened the reporter and his wife.
Why is NPR, of all news organizations, publishing this story now?
I assume you are talking about this story:
https://apple.news/A-0mMu14CTBWoXSTVs-lCMA
And I assume you are publishing it now because someone leaked audio recordings that dispute Bloomberg's claim that the report wasn't run because it needed additional reporting.
Quote:At the time, two Bloomberg editors told NPR the story didn't run because it needed additional reporting. Winkler publicly said much the same. But these audio recordings reveal otherwise. They also show how much newsroom leaders were worried about losing lucrative business in China.
BC
BC
RE: Is China liable? - cardcrimson - 04-15-2020
(04-15-2020, 06:51 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(04-15-2020, 05:56 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Several years ago, Bloomberg News, from the highest levels in the organization, killed a story on the wealth of China's elite. Then they seriously threatened the reporter and his wife.
Why is NPR, of all news organizations, publishing this story now?
I assume you are talking about this story:
https://apple.news/A-0mMu14CTBWoXSTVs-lCMA
And I assume you are publishing it now because someone leaked audio recordings that dispute Bloomberg's claim that the report wasn't run because it needed additional reporting.
Quote:At the time, two Bloomberg editors told NPR the story didn't run because it needed additional reporting. Winkler publicly said much the same. But these audio recordings reveal otherwise. They also show how much newsroom leaders were worried about losing lucrative business in China.
BC
BC
Did the link not post? I'll edit it. . .. .
RE: Is China liable? - chrisk - 04-15-2020
Trump had a personal agenda in going along with Xi rather than listening to US and Taiwan intelligence.
RE: Is China liable? - Mick - 04-15-2020
Did Xi Jinpint Deliberately Sicken the World?
This guy think so...
https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/did-xi-jinping-deliberately-sicken-the-world/
RE: Is China liable? - M T - 04-15-2020
(04-15-2020, 09:16 PM)Mick Wrote: Did Xi Jinpint Deliberately Sicken the World?
This guy think so...
In another thread, I just said that (almost all) theories should be heard out. I'm sure glad I included the caveat.
Click bait doesn't interest me. Hence I removed the link in this reply.
RE: Is China liable? - Genuine Realist - 04-15-2020
(04-15-2020, 07:46 PM)chrisk Wrote: Trump had a personal agenda in going along with Xi rather than listening to US and Tsiwan intelligence.I've read that. But if anyone can articulate anything to be gained by deliberately underestimating the potential for pandemic, I have yet to read it.
If anything, raising the alarm would have helped him with the impeachment (remember that?) and undoubtedly would have been characterized as a wag-the-dog tactic by the opposition.
Plus the underestimation of the potential seems to have been shared by everyone on both sides of the aisle, plus the major media. I've posted links on that, and won't post them again.
I appreciate that many would like to make political hay out of what happened in January, even when that requires embarrassing selective amnesia. But it just ain't there.
The culprit here is the Communist Party of China, which to avoid institutional and national embarrassment, deliberately understated the seriousness of the virus and its human-to-human transmission potential. The WHO did not declare this as a pandemic until January 30th - one day before a travel ban that (we now know) was already much, much too late.
RE: Is China liable? - BostonCard - 04-15-2020
(04-15-2020, 10:45 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote: The culprit here is the Communist Party of China, which to avoid institutional and national embarrassment, deliberately understated the seriousness of the virus and its human-to-human transmission potential. The WHO did not declare this as a pandemic until January 30th - one day before a travel ban that (we now know) was already much, much too late.
The WHO declared COVID-19 to be a pandemic on March 11. That was late, but remember, to be a pandemic, it has to show widespread community transmission. There is no way that it could have been considered a pandemic back then.
BC
RE: Is China liable? - M T - 04-16-2020
(04-15-2020, 10:45 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote: The culprit here is the Communist Party of China, which to avoid institutional and national embarrassment, deliberately understated the seriousness of the virus and its human-to-human transmission potential.
GR, how do you know these things? Are you a psychic that can read minds? Do you have internal documents of the CCP? If you somehow have some inside track to the real actions and real purposes behind world leaders, the US intelligence agencies could use you. But, they'll probably require either evidence or reasoning behind such opinions.
Also, I implore you to quit repeating false statements such as those underlined here:
(04-15-2020, 08:35 AM)Genuine Realist Wrote: I'm going to reply to my own post, with a cut-and-paste from another Commentary article. From the text:
Not this time. The first Chinese victims of 2019’s novel coronavirus began showing symptoms in the Wuhan region as early as November. It was already December 30 by the time a doctor at Wuhan Central Hospital blew the whistle in a chat-room on a new coronavirus. Only the day after word leaked out in this way did the Chinese government inform the local WHO office.
As far as I am aware, the first symptoms known to this day are December 1, and that patient didn't seek help until Dec. 8. If you have DOCUMENTED evidence (not rumors), please document it. China properly was looking for earlier cases. Looking for earlier cases doesn't indicate that earlier cases were found.
As for this reputed whistleblower, he was one of 8 people that got their hand slapped for initially saying (falsely) that it was SARS ("There are 7 confirmed cases of SARS at Huanan Seafood Market."). Does a whistleblower write this: "Don't circulate the information outside of this group, tell your family and loved ones to take caution."? No, that sounds like a person very reasonably warning his group of associates. Canonizing him as a "whistleblower" is a political play. However, he, with too many other healthcare workers, was indeed a martyr. (In yet another post, you state that he was arrested. He was not. He was summoned, interrogated, and admonished.)
Claiming somehow that this was how word "leaked out" is throwing a misleading slant to what was going on. On that Dec. 30, a notice was circulated to report all related cases (presumably to know how many patients were related). A total of 27 cases were found. The National Health Commission was called in. The next day, WHO was notified. On Jan 4 & 8, the heads of the China CDC and US CDC talked about the outbreak.
On that same Dec. 30, information about the disease was in "the official People's Daily newspaper" per a Reuter report dated Dec. 30.
Dr. Ian Lipkin indicated he first found out about the outbreak on Dec. 15. He indicated that on that same Dec. 30, he was asking for sequencing to be done. He visited China, and spoke to both leading scientists and government leaders, up to the premier, from Jan. 29 - Feb. 4.
Since you and others seem to believe that WHO wasn't notified early enough.....
Suppose the US had an outbreak of unknown pneumonia in the past year, how long would it take the CDC to officially notify WHO? Unfortunately, I looked but have not found any mention that the CDC ever notified the WHO. (I can't find it at the WHO main site. Where I hoped to find it at the PAHO site is currently broken.)
The first case was in March 2019. From a September report:
Quote:The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported a rising number of cases of mysterious pneumonias linked to vaping on Friday. Now, the agency reports 450 people from 33 states and one U.S. jurisdiction have been affected. Three deaths have been confirmed, authorities said, and another is being investigated.
CDC's first publication on this outbreak was Sep 6. (WHO is certainly concerned about the health effects of smoking and lead poisoning, so I imagine they would consider this issue a topic of concern.)
RE: Is China liable? - BostonCard - 04-16-2020
(04-16-2020, 01:57 AM)M T Wrote: GR, how do you know these things? Are you a psychic that can read minds? Do you have internal documents of the CCP? If you somehow have some inside track to the real actions and real purposes behind world leaders, the US intelligence agencies could use you. But, they'll probably require either evidence or reasoning behind such opinions.
I suppose there is no way to know motivations, but as late as the third week in January, when it was clear that there was human to human transmission because patients with no known connection to the Huanan seafood market were showing up sick. Obviously there is no way to know if this was a deliberate cover-up, or incompetence, or motivated reasoning on the part of local officials or anchoring to their initial assessment. Whatever the reason, they were wrong, and it is not unreasonable to hold them to account.
But that being said, I go back to my earlier point, which is that CCP officials are not accountable to us, the American voters, and whatever missteps they may have made (and whatever the reason for that), they don't take away from the current administration's obvious failures.
BC