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Re: The Giants - lex24 - 03-09-2018

I dont like that SB’s are out of the game. And I still believe in productive outs. I think it’s unfortunate that analytics has taken over the game.


(03-09-2018, 02:41 PM)qwerty49 link Wrote:Ok you’ve convinced me for now. It seems like yesterday that Wills would walk, steal second, go to third on a ground ball to the right side by Gilliam, and score on a Tommy Davis sac fly. Then Koufax or Drysdale would throw a shutout and we lose to the bad guys 1-0.

I agree that this is a far better lineup than anything we saw last year.

I think my attitude toward Belt is getting in the way of seeing things clearly. I just don’t like the guy, too many holes in his swing, fastball high and inside and curve low and inside to name just two.





. [quote author=lex24 link=topic=18773.msg225582#msg225582 date=1520567169]
SB are so yesterday. Metrically bad.  Which is one if the reasons I don’t like metrics.  :D

But Panik is fine going first to third. So are Crawford and Belt. Cutch Pence and either Duggar or Jackson have some speed.  So they aren’t as slow as you suggest.

Belt at No 2 is not classic Bochy. In fact it’s classic analytics. The metric guys love Belt. They feel the No 2 guy should be a high OPS guy. The days of a two hitter taking pitches and hitting behind runners is gone. The metric guys have been screaming Belt should hit second for years. 

Right now it appears to be something like:

Versus righties

Panik
Belt
Cutch
Posey
Longoria
Crawford
Pence
Jackson/Duggar/Blanco. Whoever wins CF.

Against lefties:

Jackson
Panik
Cutch
Posey
Longoria
Belt
Pence
Crawford

That’s a heck of a lot better than any lineup they put out last year.

Staff:

Bum
Cueto
Samardzija
Stratton
Blach

Pen

Watson
Osich (Smith won’t be ready till May or June)
Guerrin
Strickland
Dyson
Law
Melancon

I think they break with 12, because they have a couple off days early and can skip Blach or Stratton and moving one to the long man. They will add a 13th fairly quickly.

Bench

Hundley
Tomlinson
Blanco (Duggar will be up by June 1but I don’t think he will be on opening day roster)
Pablo
Williamson

Williamson is my reach. But he’s changed his stroke and is raking. He is a guy that played his way off the radar. But they have liked him. Having both Pablo and Mac on the bench gives you both a righty and lefty that are capable of hitting a late inning HR. Slater has options. Parker doesn’t. But I think the Giants have seen enough of him. He’s a AAAA Guy. 

So thats my roster.  Until people start getting hurt.....







[quote author=qwerty49 link=topic=18773.msg225548#msg225548 date=1520535931]
Sigh. Where to start on this one. You’re absolutely right that Panik is an ideal #2 guy. This lineup had better rediscover some power. because it’s gonna take 3 hits to score a run otherwise. I put the over-under of total SB this year by this parade of elephants to be around 10, and most of those will be from whoever plays CF. Bochy’s got himself another Earl Weaver lineup — 3-run HR or nothing.

Belt at #2 just because he’s a lefty? That’s classic Bochy. If we want someone to hit to right, send Buster up there. Stick Belt in between two righties where he’ll be more effective.

I got a feeling we’re in for a lot of 7-6 and 8-7 games this year. Let’s hope for the best.




[quote author=Mick link=topic=18773.msg225530#msg225530 date=1520517218]
Bochy said yesterday that the Giants batting lineup against right handers would start Panik at leadoff, then Belt.  At leadoff last year, Panik hit .295 with a .354 OBP.  Panik was also the NL's toughest batter to strike out both of the last two years (which makes him the ideal #2 hitter, IMHO).

3-4-5 will be some combination of Posey, McCutchen and Longoria.  Pence, Crawford and the yet-to-be-named center fielder will complete the lineup.

Melancon had a 1-2-3 inning, first time back.  He has discomfort, but doesn't know if it's regular spring training discomfort or operation-gone-wrong discomfort.

From yesteryear, the performance of the Giants' traded-away high draft picks:

- Arroyo is batting .413 this spring, which compares to the .412 he batted during all of the Giants' spring training sessions (MLB career .192 BA)
- Phil Bickford, the top 2015 pick, has never progressed beyond A ball and has a career 8-8 record in the minors with a 2.71 ERA in 37 starts.  Not in the major league camp, 22 years old.
- 2016 2nd round pick Bryan Reynolds has hit between .312 and .317 between rookie and A ball the last two years.  He is 0 for 11 in spring training this year.
- 20 year old Lucius Fox, recipient of the largest signing bonus in SF Giants intl' history, has hit .242 the past two seasons in the low minors with 5 HRs in 702 ABs.  Improved from .207 to .266 from 2016 to 2017.

So that's what we're missing.

BTW, I realize that it's just spring training, but 29 year old career minor leaguer Kyle Jensen has five home runs (out of six hits) in 11 ABs this spring.  That makes him #2 in the majors after the Indians' second baseman Kipnis (who has six HRs in 20 ABs).  Everyone else in the top nine has more ABs than Jensen.

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Re: The Giants - BobK - 03-09-2018

Awesome battles vs the Dodgers.  Of course the play off in 1962 was my favorite. 

Re: The Giants - qwerty49 - 03-09-2018

LOL Mick will probably correct me again but I think it was Cepeda’s SF that put us ahead in the 9th and then we added one more as insurance.

Then later, Chuck Hiller’s GS at Yankee Stadium and of course McCovey’s liner that had Charlie Brown depressed for a week.

But what also hurt was Wills “stole” the MVP award from Mays that year.
(03-09-2018, 07:04 PM)BobK link Wrote:Awesome battles vs the Dodgers.  Of course the play off in 1962 was my favorite.


Re: The Giants - qwerty49 - 03-09-2018

Wow Mick good research. So how many times did the Dodgers lead off a game with the Wills-Gilliam-Davis scenario to score the first run? I know I didn’t imagine it. 😜

(03-09-2018, 04:21 PM)Mick link Wrote:[quote author=qwerty49 link=topic=18773.msg225628#msg225628 date=1520631663]
Ok you’ve convinced me for now. It seems like yesterday that Wills would walk, steal second, go to third on a ground ball to the right side by Gilliam, and score on a Tommy Davis sac fly. Then Koufax or Drysdale would throw a shutout and we lose to the bad guys 1-0.

Oddly enough, that never actually happened.  The San Francisco Giants never lost a 1-0 game against the Los Angeles Dodgers when either Koufax or Drysdale was pitching during the 12 seasons that at least one pitcher was on the Dodgers pitching staff (1958 to 1969).  The LA Dodgers, however, lost three games by a 1-0 score over the Giants in that time frame, and McCormick was the WP two of the three times:

1) Koufax lost to McCormick:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN196009030.shtml

2) Drysdale lost to Herbel with O'Dell in relief:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN196406280.shtml

3) McCormick beat Claude "The White Rat" Osteen:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN196707090.shtml

The only game in which the San Francisco Giants lost 1-0 to the Los Angeles Dodgers during the careers of Koufax and Drysdale, the winning Dodgers pitcher was Roger Craig, who beat Sam Jones 1-0 on 7/21/59.  Incidentally, Craig had a 49-38 record with the Dodgers at the start of his career, then went to the Mets in 1962 and nosedived.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN195907210.shtml 

Obviously, Koufax and Drysdale had some close victories over the Giants.  Drysdale, in particular won seven games by a 2-1 score (including one over Marichal) and Koufax beat O'Dell 2-0 and Shaw 2-1 in that time span, but Koufax had no other victories in which he beat the SF Giants by a 2-0 or 2-1 score. 
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN195905220.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN195904200.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN196207080.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN196305100.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN196504290.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN196506160.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN196706250.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN196806260.shtml

Incidentally, during those 12 seasons, the teams were very evenly matched, with the Giants winning 120 games and the Dodgers winning 115.  Four of the season series ended in ties (1958, 1963, 1966 and 1968), the Dodgers won three series (14-8 in 1959, 10-8 in 1965 and 12-6 in 1967), and the Giants won five season series (1960 and 1961 were 12-10, 1962 was 11-10, 1964 was 12-6 and 1969 was the most lopsided at 13 wins for the Giants and five for the Dodgers).

Then came the 1970s and the Giants lost Cepeda, Mays, McCovey, Jim Ray Hart, McCormick, Perry, Marichal, Dietz and Bobby Bonds to be replaced by nothing and no one.  At least they got rid of Foster, Kingman, Bonds, Henderson and Speier.  The Dodgers replaced their 1960s stars with Sutton, Garvey, Cey, Russell, Buckner, Ferguson, Messersmith, Yeager, Dusty Baker, Reggie Smith, Rick Monday, Mike Marshall and Tommy John. And won pennants in 74, 77, 78 and 91.  Ugh.

The Giants would have to wait from 1962 to 1989 and Ron Fairly's only memorable line "27 years of waiting have come to an end..."
[/quote]

Re: The Giants - Phogge - 03-10-2018

My first game was their first game. Cepeda, O’Connell, Spencer, Davenport, King, Mays, Kirkland, Thomas, Gomez. Shutout 8-0. Homers by Spencer, Cepeda.

Re: The Giants - 81alum - 03-10-2018

(03-08-2018, 10:19 PM)Phogge link Wrote:Bad trades:
- Felipe for Bob Shaw
- Cepeda for Sadecki
- Bill White for Sam Jones... although one great year for Jones
- Matty Alou, Jose Cardenal, Jose Pagan, bye bye and getting Jack Fischer, Billy Hoeft
- George Foster for Duffy
- Worst of all Gaylord for Sudden Sam

How about Willie Mays for minor league pitcher Charlie Williams and some cash?  That trade cost the Giants one avid 14 year old fan (my wife) who has militantly maintained her boycott against ever watching another Giants game for 46 years.

Re: The Giants - Phogge - 03-10-2018

Horace unloaded Mays and Kingman to make his payroll. Traded Matthews for the malcontent Willie Montanez and lost Gary Maddox. Once Chub Feeney became NL prexy the Giants fell apart. The ultimate for me was trading Gaylord for a known dissolute drunk. Perry went on to win two Cy Young’s, the M Boys helped carry the Phillies to their first WS title and Kingman went on to hit 400 more home runs.

Tell your wife that Mays was a most difficult person to work with when I was with the Giants. Trumped of course by the sub human Barry Bonds.

Re: The Giants - Mick - 03-10-2018

(03-09-2018, 11:00 PM)qwerty49 link Wrote:Wow Mick good research. So how many times did the Dodgers lead off a game with the Wills-Gilliam-Davis scenario to score the first run? I know I didn’t imagine it. 😜

[quote author=Mick link=topic=18773.msg225640#msg225640 date=1520637682]
[quote author=qwerty49 link=topic=18773.msg225628#msg225628 date=1520631663]
Ok you’ve convinced me for now. It seems like yesterday that Wills would walk, steal second, go to third on a ground ball to the right side by Gilliam, and score on a Tommy Davis sac fly. Then Koufax or Drysdale would throw a shutout and we lose to the bad guys 1-0.

Oddly enough, that never actually happened.  The San Francisco Giants never lost a 1-0 game against the Los Angeles Dodgers when either Koufax or Drysdale was pitching during the 12 seasons that at least one pitcher was on the Dodgers pitching staff (1958 to 1969).  The LA Dodgers, however, lost three games by a 1-0 score over the Giants in that time frame, and McCormick was the WP two of the three times:

1) Koufax lost to McCormick:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN196009030.shtml

2) Drysdale lost to Herbel with O'Dell in relief:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN196406280.shtml

3) McCormick beat Claude "The White Rat" Osteen:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN196707090.shtml

The only game in which the San Francisco Giants lost 1-0 to the Los Angeles Dodgers during the careers of Koufax and Drysdale, the winning Dodgers pitcher was Roger Craig, who beat Sam Jones 1-0 on 7/21/59.  Incidentally, Craig had a 49-38 record with the Dodgers at the start of his career, then went to the Mets in 1962 and nosedived.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN195907210.shtml 

Obviously, Koufax and Drysdale had some close victories over the Giants.  Drysdale, in particular won seven games by a 2-1 score (including one over Marichal) and Koufax beat O'Dell 2-0 and Shaw 2-1 in that time span, but Koufax had no other victories in which he beat the SF Giants by a 2-0 or 2-1 score. 
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN195905220.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN195904200.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN196207080.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN196305100.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN196504290.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN196506160.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN196706250.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN196806260.shtml

Incidentally, during those 12 seasons, the teams were very evenly matched, with the Giants winning 120 games and the Dodgers winning 115.  Four of the season series ended in ties (1958, 1963, 1966 and 1968), the Dodgers won three series (14-8 in 1959, 10-8 in 1965 and 12-6 in 1967), and the Giants won five season series (1960 and 1961 were 12-10, 1962 was 11-10, 1964 was 12-6 and 1969 was the most lopsided at 13 wins for the Giants and five for the Dodgers).

Then came the 1970s and the Giants lost Cepeda, Mays, McCovey, Jim Ray Hart, McCormick, Perry, Marichal, Dietz and Bobby Bonds to be replaced by nothing and no one.  At least they got rid of Foster, Kingman, Bonds, Henderson and Speier.  The Dodgers replaced their 1960s stars with Sutton, Garvey, Cey, Russell, Buckner, Ferguson, Messersmith, Yeager, Dusty Baker, Reggie Smith, Rick Monday, Mike Marshall and Tommy John. And won pennants in 74, 77, 78 and 91.  Ugh.

The Giants would have to wait from 1962 to 1989 and Ron Fairly's only memorable line "27 years of waiting have come to an end..."
[/quote]
[/quote]

You didn't imagine it, it's just that the games tended to be 2-1 instead of 1-0, at least when Drysdale and Koufax were pitching.  And Mills-Gilliam-Davis was pretty common, but my limited research skills can't produce the answer, unfortunately.  My uneducated guess would be "a lot."

Re: The Giants - Mick - 03-10-2018

(03-10-2018, 07:56 AM)Phogge link Wrote:Horace unloaded Mays and Kingman to make his payroll. Traded Matthews for the malcontent Willie Montanez and lost Gary Maddox. Once Chub Feeney became NL prexy the Giants fell apart. The ultimate for me was trading Gaylord for a known dissolute drunk. Perry went on to win two Cy Young’s, the M Boys helped carry the Phillies to their first WS title and Kingman went on to hit 400 more home runs.

Tell your wife that Mays was a most difficult person to work with when I was with the Giants. Trumped of course by the sub human Barry Bonds.

I heard horror stories about Mays, and Glenn Dickey couldn't stand him.  I got to know Ken Henderson (LF) a bit and he said that he and Mays always got along really well.

Re: The Giants - Mick - 03-11-2018

Giants won two yesterday.  Williamson had three hits, including a triple and an HR.  Osich and Okert looked good, Beeded got crushed, so did Law (who got the win over the Angels).  Trout went 3 for 3 with an HR.  I think he's a free agent next year.  Tomlinson 2 for 3, Jensen and Pence 1 for 2.  Stanford's Slater 0-4 with two strikeouts.  Tough spring.

In the other game, Hundley went 3 for 4 with an HR and a double, Panik 1 for 3 with a walk at leadoff, Duggar 1 for 2 with two walks, Belt 2 for 4 with an HR.

Interesting stat of the day: In 17 games, SF Giants lead all 30 MLB teams with a .309 spring training batting average, #1 with a .373 OBP, and #1 with a .556 slugging percentage.  they are the OPS leader at .929.  Crazy.  They have the third-most doubles with 37, second most triples (10) and -- wait for it -- the MOST home runs of any team with 33 (Indians have 32).  We have the fifth most walks, and the most strikeouts.  And...they have the second most stolen bases, with 19.  That's right.  The San Francisco Giants have the second most stolen bases of the 30 MLB teams in spring training.  Almost goes without saying, but the Giants have scored the most runs in spring training with 127 (second most is 118).

Our fielding percentage is second from last at .966.  Tied for the most errors with 22.  We're middle of the pack in "caught stealing."  We have the third fewest DPs with 11 (MLB leader has 27).

Pitching.  We're #20 of 30 teams with a 5.29 ERA.  Our WHIP is #25 at 1.56.  Worst of all, our pitching staff has given up 25 unearned runs.  Tampa Bay has given up ONE unearned run.  On the slight good news front, our pitchers are #7 in most strikeouts, but have given up the third most walks.  Only the 18th most home runs, which is a good sign.

Re: The Giants - lex24 - 03-11-2018


Glenn Dickey is an ass.  Willie had a reason to be somewhat bitter.  Couldn’t buy a house in the City. Then never fully embraced by the City.

Greatest baseball player I’ve ever seen.

(03-10-2018, 08:02 AM)Mick link Wrote:[quote author=Phogge link=topic=18773.msg225689#msg225689 date=1520693781]
Horace unloaded Mays and Kingman to make his payroll. Traded Matthews for the malcontent Willie Montanez and lost Gary Maddox. Once Chub Feeney became NL prexy the Giants fell apart. The ultimate for me was trading Gaylord for a known dissolute drunk. Perry went on to win two Cy Young’s, the M Boys helped carry the Phillies to their first WS title and Kingman went on to hit 400 more home runs.

Tell your wife that Mays was a most difficult person to work with when I was with the Giants. Trumped of course by the sub human Barry Bonds.

I heard horror stories about Mays, and Glenn Dickey couldn't stand him.  I got to know Ken Henderson (LF) a bit and he said that he and Mays always got along really well.
[/quote]

Re: The Giants - BobK - 03-11-2018

I’m not sure how many games you saw in the 60s but Willie was a brobdingnagian fan favorite.  Yes the fans took to Cepeda as our own but Mays was hugely cheered.

Willie was turned down for his first house because of race but did buy in the City.

 

Re: The Giants - lex24 - 03-11-2018

Quite a few. But probably not as many as you!  Cepeda and McCovey.


(03-11-2018, 08:59 PM)BobK link Wrote:I’m not sure how many games you saw in the 60s but Willie was a of exceedingly large proportions fan favorite.  Yes the fans took to Cepeda as our own but Mays was hugely cheered.

Willie was turned down for his first house because of race but did buy in the City.


Re: The Giants - Phogge - 03-11-2018

I bought Willie’s house on Miraloma Drive. Lex and Bobbb I’ll tell you the true story next September. The fans came around to him eventually but Dick Young and other writers deified him and he didn’t hit .400 and 70 homers so in some respects he was a letdown.

And neither of you guys worked with him for five years. He was a nightmare.

Re: The Giants - Mick - 03-12-2018

(03-11-2018, 11:17 PM)Phogge link Wrote:I bought Willie’s house on Miraloma Drive. Lex and Bobbb I’ll tell you the true story next September. The fans came around to him eventually but Richard Young and other writers deified him and he didn’t hit .400 and 70 homers so in some respects he was a letdown.

And neither of you guys worked with him for five years. He was a nightmare.

These days, you would say he "lacks basic life skills."

He did eventually end up buying in Atherton or Hillsborough.  I don't feel too bad for him.

My generation was slightly after Mays.  My favorite and that of all my friends was Willie McCovey.

Re: The Giants - terry - 03-12-2018

Did anyone else have this baseball card?

[Image: s-l300.jpg]

Re: The Giants - BobK - 03-12-2018

My brother has it.  He’s selling at a card show in Sacramento Saturday

Re: The Giants - qwerty49 - 03-12-2018

I remember McCovey had such a fabulous debut year, ending at .359 back in 1959 but had a terrible year the following year where he slumped to about .238. And one of the local curmudgeons in the Chron, Charles McCabe, was all over him. McCabe was pretty vitriolic and IIRC he was really upset that they couldn’t figure out what to do with Cepeda, who himself hit .312 in his rookie year in 1958.

They tried Cepeda at 3B briefly but he was terrible there and they had Davenport already and Jim Ray Hart in the pipeline. Then they tried him in LF and he was really bad there. They also tried moving McCovey to LF, which provided some thrilling adventures as Willie was not exactly a born outfielder.  But for a couple of years they had one too many HOF 1st basemen.  It eventually forced the infamous Cepeda-for-Sadecki trade.

(03-12-2018, 09:18 AM)Mick link Wrote:[quote author=Phogge link=topic=18773.msg225787#msg225787 date=1520835466]
I bought Willie’s house on Miraloma Drive. Lex and Bobbb I’ll tell you the true story next September. The fans came around to him eventually but Richard Young and other writers deified him and he didn’t hit .400 and 70 homers so in some respects he was a letdown.

And neither of you guys worked with him for five years. He was a nightmare.

These days, you would say he "lacks basic life skills."

He did eventually end up buying in Atherton or Hillsborough.  I don't feel too bad for him.

My generation was slightly after Mays.  My favorite and that of all my friends was Willie McCovey.
[/quote]

Re: The Giants - Mick - 03-12-2018

This was my first McCovey card:

[Image: 136724.jpg]

This, sadly, was my only Willie Mays card:

[Image: il_570xN.696131249_ahey.jpg]