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Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - Card Fan in OR - 12-11-2017

So it seems like the TX cheerleaders violated both portions of the rule cited by MT. Why doesn’t our coach point this out to the officials and ask for redress?

Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - FarmBoy - 12-11-2017

Would we complain this much about an opposing set of cheerleaders acting the same way during a free throw attempt in basketball?

Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - 2006alum - 12-11-2017

(12-11-2017, 06:13 AM)FarmBoy link Wrote:Would we complain this much about an opposing set of cheerleaders acting the same way during a free throw attempt in basketball?
The difference is the geography of the court. A free throw shooter is not a foot away from three megaphones in her ear. The cheer squad is all the way at the end behind the hoop, or else back in the opposite side of the court.

Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - oldalum - 12-11-2017

(12-10-2017, 10:46 PM)MT link Wrote:Cheerleaders may use nonelectronic megaphones in a nondisruptive manner.

cheerleaders and mascots must not interfere with the opponents at any time.
The latter depends on the meaning of the word "interfere" which might refer to physical interference. I think the former is the applicable rule: "nondisruptive" has to mean so as not to distract or verbally disrupt the opponent's play.

Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - FarmBoy - 12-11-2017

(12-11-2017, 06:50 AM)2006alum link Wrote:[quote author=FarmBoy link=topic=18281.msg217878#msg217878 date=1512997987]
Would we complain this much about an opposing set of cheerleaders acting the same way during a free throw attempt in basketball?
The difference is the geography of the court. A free throw shooter is not a foot away from three megaphones in her ear. The cheer squad is all the way at the end behind the hoop, or else back in the opposite side of the court.
[/quote]

I can't tell from the angle in the photos MT posted how far the cheerleaders are. There's not enough perspective to measure it. It could be 2 feet it could be 15.

Can anyone at the game actually confirm?

Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - M T - 12-11-2017

(12-11-2017, 11:20 AM)FarmBoy link Wrote:I can't tell from the angle in the photos MT posted how far the cheerleaders are. There's not enough perspective to measure it. It could be 2 feet it could be 15.

Can anyone at the game actually confirm?
It depends upon where the player serves from.  Some servers start further back.  The attached picture is typical of our servers.

I think it is the responsibility of the officials to enforce these rules.  Requiring an opposing coach to complain first puts the coach in an awkward position.  Actually,  IMO, it should be the school (here, Texas) to rein in the representatives of their school (as Stanford does with the LSJUMB).

As an alumnus of Univ of Texas grad school, I was bothered by their behavior before I found out it apparently is against the WVB rules.

Anyone remember the NCAA URL for commenting on the experience of the event?



Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - qwerty49 - 12-11-2017

I found this on the NCAA website:

“Information regarding potential rules violations can be reported by calling the NCAA at 317-917-6008. “


(12-11-2017, 12:18 PM)MT link Wrote:[quote author=FarmBoy link=topic=18281.msg217902#msg217902 date=1513016441]
I can't tell from the angle in the photos MT posted how far the cheerleaders are. There's not enough perspective to measure it. It could be 2 feet it could be 15.

Can anyone at the game actually confirm?
It depends upon where the player serves from.  Some servers start further back.  The attached picture is typical of our servers.

I think it is the responsibility of the officials to enforce these rules.  Requiring an opposing coach to complain first puts the coach in an awkward position.  Actually,  IMO, it should be the school (here, Texas) to reign in the representatives of their school (as Stanford does with the LSJUMB).

As an alumnus of Univ of Texas grad school, I was bothered by their behavior before I found out it apparently is against the WVB rules.

Anyone remember the NCAA URL for commenting on the experience of the event?
[/quote]

Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - BobK - 12-11-2017

Most of our servers serve on the left.  Gray serves on both sides Saturday it was more on the right like the photo

Yes Stanford band was yelling at the Texas Or Wisconsin server.  But without megaphones of course

Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - 76lsjumb - 12-11-2017

While I, too, noticed the, er, ... aggressive... use of megaphones by the UT cheerleaders and band [especially], and also wondered whether their use of same complied with NCAA rules, I'm not exactly sure why folks appear so bent out of shape by that.  Indeed, it you look at the stats, our serve and serve receive games [which, presumably, is where any adverse effect would be most apparent] were actually better in Set 2 [when we were on the UT Band side of the net] than either Set 1 or 3.  We had one service error in Set 2 [Plummer, channeling her inner Kristin Folkl, as she is wont to do] and zero serve receive errors/aces.  On the other hand, in Set 1 [while on the "friendly," non-UT Band side of the court], we had three service errors and gave up two aces, and in Set 3 [again, on the "good guys" side] we had 2 service errors and gave up 1 ace.  Empirically, then, we did better under megaphone pressure than otherwise.

Also, at the Wisconsin match the previous evening -- with the benefit of no opposing megaphones -- our service game had many more errors [both serving and receiving].  Indeed, the atmosphere for that match was much more akin to a library or a morgue than to a sporting event [other than golf or tennis].  In fact, that is an ongoing gripe I have about the wvb fan base [indeed, Stanford fan bases as a whole].  Florida, Penn State, and Nebraska fans don't satisfy themselves with golf claps; there's no reason why we should.  Also, as has been noted [I think], the LSJUMB quite often "assists" the opposing server by yelling "bounce, bounce, bounce..." as she dribbles before serving.  More power [even megaphones, perhaps  ;D ] to them...

In short, I think the UT band and cheerleaders did us a favor.  The energy level was much higher for the UT match, and it sure looked to me like our team fed off that higher level -- including the megaphone "harassment" -- to turn in one of the better performances of the year.

As for being disruptive, I can't imagine anything more disruptive than the ASU "curtain of doom" [or whatever they call it] that they have for visiting team free throw shooters at b'ball games.  Compared to that spectacle, those megaphones  [especially the little ones the UT band had] seem almost cute...

Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - teejers1 - 12-11-2017

Gotta give it up to Sparky for Curtain of Doom.  Are some of the items behind Curtain No. 1 juvenile or stupid?  Sure.  But several are clever, and the anticipation of what's coming must be worth a FT or two per game.

But then again, perhaps it just makes the opponent more focused. 

Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - qwerty49 - 12-11-2017

On one hand, the megaphone shenanigans are a bit over the top and IMHO should be squashed.

But OTOH we really can’t complain when the system gives home advantage to higher seeds all the way to the Final Four.

Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - BobK - 12-11-2017

Service errors Are a great judge of being distracted.  Instead it’s how well did the opposing team pass from our serve.  And Texas passed poorly. 

Nevertheless great analysis 76.

Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - oldalum - 12-11-2017

(12-11-2017, 02:48 PM)76lsjumb link Wrote:While I, too, noticed the, er, ... aggressive... use of megaphones by the UT cheerleaders and band [especially], I'm not exactly sure why folks appear so bent out of shape by that.  . . .  Empirically . . . we did better under megaphone pressure than otherwise.

Sorry, but IMO this proves nothing. Our servers may not have served as aggressively in set 2 because of the noise in their ears. They may have been more warmed up and had better feel for the ball in set 2 than set 1 or 3 because of the lack of down time before the set started. The sample and effect sizes are too small to draw any conclusions. I did not see the cheerleaders yelling at our serve receivers, but if they did they were further away than our servers were from them, so I wouldn't expect an effect.

More important, in judging whether it is acceptable for the cheerleaders to do what they did, to me it's irrelevant whether the megaphone yelling had a discernible effect on our players, positive or negative. It's an attempt to gain an advantage in a way that is prohibited by the rules and therefore shouldn't be done. The ends--positive or negative--don't excuse or justify the means. Megaphones, small or large, are an artificial amplification device and are intended for cheerleaders to be heard by the crowd, not to raise the volume level directed in the ear of the athletes.

No apologies for being displeased with poor sportsmanship and rule breaking in competitive sports, where fair play should be the norm. No, it's not the end of the world, but few things discussed on this board are! It's just a game, but the athletes and many fans try to take the game seriously. "respect the game, respect the opponent, respect the officials"

Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - 76lsjumb - 12-11-2017

(12-11-2017, 05:18 PM)oldalum link Wrote:[quote author=76lsjumb link=topic=18281.msg217951#msg217951 date=1513028883]
While I, too, noticed the, er, ... aggressive... use of megaphones by the UT cheerleaders and band [especially], I'm not exactly sure why folks appear so bent out of shape by that.  . . .  Empirically . . . we did better under megaphone pressure than otherwise.

Sorry, but IMO this proves nothing. Our servers may not have served as aggressively in set 2 because of the noise in their ears. They may have been more warmed up and had better feel for the ball in set 2 than set 1 or 3 because of the lack of down time before the set started. The sample and effect sizes are too small to draw any conclusions. I did not see the cheerleaders yelling at our serve receivers, but if they did they were further away than our servers were from them, so I wouldn't expect an effect.

More important, in judging whether it is acceptable for the cheerleaders to do what they did, to me it's irrelevant whether the megaphone yelling had a discernible effect on our players, positive or negative. It's an attempt to gain an advantage in a way that is prohibited by the rules and therefore shouldn't be done. The ends--positive or negative--don't excuse or justify the means. Megaphones, small or large, are an artificial amplification device and are intended for cheerleaders to be heard by the crowd, not to raise the volume level directed in the ear of the athletes.

No apologies for being displeased with poor sportsmanship and rule breaking in competitive sports, where fair play should be the norm. No, it's not the end of the world, but few things discussed on this board are! It's just a game, but the athletes and many fans try to take the game seriously. "respect the game, respect the opponent, respect the officials"
[/quote]

I have no desire whatsoever to get into an argument over this or to support bad sportsmanship or anything like that.  I was just sort of looking at it empirically and observing that I don't think it hurt our play at all and may even have helped it.  Along the same lines, I'm interested in whether you think stone silence -- which is quite often the situation at Maples when our servers are serving, and certainly was in the match against Wisconsin, for example -- makes it easier or harder on the server?  I'd argue that, if anything, it makes it harder [but readily admit that is just my feeling].

Also, I will confess to yelling "sideout" quite often when the opposing server is preparing to serve [often using my hands as a sort of "megaphone].  Do you consider that to be bad form/poor sportsmanship?  What about the Band yelling "bounce, bounce, bounce..."?  My feeling is that those are the things that create "home court advantage" and are why [especially in wvb] so much of a premium is put on getting a top four seed.  I went to the Pac-12/B1G tournament at Univ. of Illinois earlier this year, and, believe me, the noise level and yelling directed at our team during the Illinois match was way louder than the UT band and cheerleaders, even with their megaphones.

Moreover, if a school is willing to support its team enough to send along its band and cheerleaders to a distant regional, it seems to me their purpose is to do what they can [definitely within the rules, of course] to mitigate that home court advantage.  Fortunately, I believe the LSJUMB Red Vest Band is going to Kansas City for the Final Four.  FWIW, I hope they make some noise...

One final thought:  Since these competitions are always crawling with NCAA competition management personnel [I'm sure you saw all the people with credentials, earphones, suits, etc.], I've got to believe that the possession and use of those megaphones was sanctioned by the powers that be.


Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - teejers1 - 12-11-2017

Stone silence is ALWAYS much harder to deal with than some good 'ol fan noise.  Maybe that explains why Stanford is so pathetic on the FT line at Maples.

As for sportsmanship, 76, that is terrible that you yell as the opponent is serving.  I'm surprised you haven't been kicked out by the officials.  And speaking of that, I liked it MUCH better when you sat behind the Stanford bench in the Glory Days of Montgomery Hoops and gave the refs an earful.  THAT's what we need to see more of at Maples. Unfortunately, few people actually sit in those seats on game day, and the ones that do show no imagination whatsoever.

Question for 76 and OldAlum - Mick - 12-11-2017

(12-11-2017, 06:10 PM)76lsjumb link Wrote:[quote author=oldalum link=topic=18281.msg217985#msg217985 date=1513037905]
[quote author=76lsjumb link=topic=18281.msg217951#msg217951 date=1513028883]
While I, too, noticed the, er, ... aggressive... use of megaphones by the UT cheerleaders and band [especially], I'm not exactly sure why folks appear so bent out of shape by that.  . . .  Empirically . . . we did better under megaphone pressure than otherwise.

Sorry, but IMO this proves nothing. Our servers may not have served as aggressively in set 2 because of the noise in their ears. They may have been more warmed up and had better feel for the ball in set 2 than set 1 or 3 because of the lack of down time before the set started. The sample and effect sizes are too small to draw any conclusions. I did not see the cheerleaders yelling at our serve receivers, but if they did they were further away than our servers were from them, so I wouldn't expect an effect.

More important, in judging whether it is acceptable for the cheerleaders to do what they did, to me it's irrelevant whether the megaphone yelling had a discernible effect on our players, positive or negative. It's an attempt to gain an advantage in a way that is prohibited by the rules and therefore shouldn't be done. The ends--positive or negative--don't excuse or justify the means. Megaphones, small or large, are an artificial amplification device and are intended for cheerleaders to be heard by the crowd, not to raise the volume level directed in the ear of the athletes.

No apologies for being displeased with poor sportsmanship and rule breaking in competitive sports, where fair play should be the norm. No, it's not the end of the world, but few things discussed on this board are! It's just a game, but the athletes and many fans try to take the game seriously. "respect the game, respect the opponent, respect the officials"
[/quote]

I have no desire whatsoever to get into an argument over this or to support bad sportsmanship or anything like that.  I was just sort of looking at it empirically and observing that I don't think it hurt our play at all and may even have helped it.  Along the same lines, I'm interested in whether you think stone silence -- which is quite often the situation at Maples when our servers are serving, and certainly was in the match against Wisconsin, for example -- makes it easier or harder on the server?  I'd argue that, if anything, it makes it harder [but readily admit that is just my feeling].

Also, I will confess to yelling "sideout" quite often when the opposing server is preparing to serve [often using my hands as a sort of "megaphone].  Do you consider that to be bad form/poor sportsmanship?  What about the Band yelling "bounce, bounce, bounce..."?  My feeling is that those are the things that create "home court advantage" and are why [especially in wvb] so much of a premium is put on getting a top four seed.  I went to the Pac-12/B1G tournament at Univ. of Illinois earlier this year, and, believe me, the noise level and yelling directed at our team during the Illinois match was way louder than the UT band and cheerleaders, even with their megaphones.

Moreover, if a school is willing to support its team enough to send along its band and cheerleaders to a distant regional, it seems to me their purpose is to do what they can [definitely within the rules, of course] to mitigate that home court advantage.  Fortunately, I believe the LSJUMB Red Vest Band is going to Kansas City for the Final Four.  FWIW, I hope they make some noise...

One final thought:  Since these competitions are always crawling with NCAA competition management personnel [I'm sure you saw all the people with credentials, earphones, suits, etc.], I've got to believe that the possession and use of those megaphones was sanctioned by the powers that be.
[/quote]

Question for you, 76 and OldAlum.  Imagine a reasonably competitive basketball game of 7th and 8th graders.  Not AAU, but not gym class either.  One team is down by one point, two seconds left in the game.  Gym is silent.  The team that is behind has two free throws to tie, win or lose the game.  As the shooter goes into his motion, a parent from the other team yells "Miss!"

Poor sportsmanship, or just getting an advantage over the other team?

Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - FarmDad.01 - 12-11-2017

@ Mick... Since your example is basketball, a sport that doesn't seek to suppress crowd participation, acceptable. Whereas golf: An opponent has a three-foot putt to seal the match and a spectator screams on the backsstroke, MISS IT!! -- unacceptable,

Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - Roberton3 - 12-11-2017

(12-11-2017, 06:46 PM)FarmDad.01 link Wrote:[font=times new roman][size=12pt]@ Mick... Since your example is basketball, a sport that doesn't seek to suppress crowd participation, acceptable.

With college players, absolutely. With 7th and 8th grade players?  Um, no.

Re: WVB - on to the Sweet 16 - terry - 12-11-2017

There's nothing wrong with heckling by people in the seats.

To me, the cheerleaders are different because they have been given special access to the floor for a specific purpose (leading the crowd in cheers). They are allowed to bring megaphones on the floor for the same purpose. When they use their floor access and megaphones for up-close heckling, that's an abuse of the privilege they've been given.

This is why the bands are required to stop playing during game action. They are allowed to play musical instruments for a specific purpose. They are not allowed to use those instruments to try to disrupt the other team. That's an abuse of the privilege they've been given, so it's not allowed. Seems to me that the same principle should apply to cheerleaders and megaphones.

The NCAA rule quoted above refers to using megaphones in a "nondisruptive" manner. It's obvious from the photos that the cheerleaders are using the megaphones for the specific purpose of being disruptive at point blank range. It's an abuse of the special privilege they've been given. If the cheerleaders want to heckle the other team's serve, let them sit in the stands.

Re: Question for 76 and OldAlum - oldalum - 12-11-2017

(12-11-2017, 06:22 PM)Mick link Wrote:Question for you, 76 and OldAlum.  Imagine a reasonably competitive basketball game of 7th and 8th graders.  Not AAU, but not gym class either.  One team is down by one point, two seconds left in the game.  Gym is silent.  The team that is behind has two free throws to tie, win or lose the game.  As the shooter goes into his motion, a parent from the other team yells "Miss!"

Poor sportsmanship, or just getting an advantage over the other team?

Absolutely poor sportsmanship at that age. In California's excellent state-wide youth competitive basketball league (National Junior Basketball, or NJB, grades 3-8, in the middle between recreational league and AAU), any criticism or heckling or disruption of either team by fans, parents, coaches, or players is prohibited; only positive cheering is allowed. To help instill this often-foreign habit, in the second game of the season there is no fan verbal comments/cheering allowed at all, only clapping. There is also an adult gym monitor to enforce this.

In college, with a noisy gym, fan noise is part of the game and yelling to encourage your team and discourage the other team is fine.