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Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - Printable Version

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Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - BurgXXIII - 04-16-2015

(04-16-2015, 11:07 AM)gocard14 link Wrote:Israel's current policies regarding West Bank settlements, approach (or lack thereof) to a two state solution, etc...

gocard14, would you be willing to expand a bit? I'm not Jewish (insert joke here) but I did visit Israel last year for a few weeks. So a question I have is - when you say West Bank, what area are you referring to? It seemed to me that most of the non-desert part of Israel was "West Bank." So absent West Bank presence/control, Israel would have as much chance to defend itself as Monaco would from a combined attack by France and Italy. Is this your perception?

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - gocard14 - 04-16-2015

(04-16-2015, 11:40 AM)BurgXXIII link Wrote:[quote author=gocard14 link=topic=12033.msg116865#msg116865 date=1429207663]
Israel's current policies regarding West Bank settlements, approach (or lack thereof) to a two state solution, etc...

gocard14, would you be willing to expand a bit? I'm not Jewish (insert joke here) but I did visit Israel last year for a few weeks. So a question I have is - when you say West Bank, what area are you referring to? It seemed to me that most of the non-desert part of Israel was "West Bank." So absent West Bank presence/control, Israel would have as much chance to defend itself as Monaco would from a combined attack by France and Italy. Is this your perception?
[/quote]

Most of the "West Bank" is desert and contributes little to nothing in terms of economic prosperity.  In fact the opposite is true, a lot of money is spent supporting the settlement program. 

Strategic importance also seems minimal.  It adds a small buffer zone between Israel and Jordan (Israel's most stable/peaceful neighbor). I'm no military strategist, but I can't see a brobdingnagian benefit.  Contrast this to the Golan Heights, which is a strategic location overlooking Syria which Israel will not give up for any reason.

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - Ronnietrader - 04-16-2015

A two state solution has typically has been drawn to the pre-1967 lines (i.e. West Bank and Gaza would form a new Palestinian State) with small amounts of mutually agreed land swaps. The Palestinian state would get land in proper Israel while Israel would keep a few of their bigger settlements and a bigger buffer at its narrowest point (something like 9 miles across otherwise).  The reasonable heads on both sides can (and effectively have) agreed to this.  The problem becomes what to do about the "right of return" among Palestinians.  Israel can't acquiesce to allowing millions of Palestinians immigrate into the country as it would end Israel as we know it as the Jewish homeland.  On the other hand, nothing defines Palestinian unity more than the hope that they return back to pre-1948 Palestine.  Behind the scenes, some form of reparations and limited immigration has been debated, but nothing has ever been agreed upon. Moreover, Israel is not as keen to negotiate these days given Hamas' power. 

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - BurgXXIII - 04-16-2015

This seems to me to be the most intractable problem: Having Israel be a democratic Jewish state that isn't too microscopically small to be functional or defensible. Notice that places like Gaza don't have this problem, because they aren't surrounded by enemies. Treaties with Jordan are critically important to Israel, but the two states aren't exactly lovey-dovey.

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - 97fan - 04-16-2015

(04-16-2015, 01:26 PM)BurgXXIII link Wrote:This seems to me to be the most intractable problem: Having Israel be a democratic Jewish state that isn't too microscopically small to be functional or defensible. Notice that places like Gaza don't have this problem, because they aren't surrounded by enemies.

Huh? Gaza is completely fenced off from Israel, and also blockaded by Israel in terms of air and sea travel, with a small crossing into Egypt serving as the only outlet -- and that has been closed for the last couple of years, I believe. Israel certainly faces big challenges in defending itself, but it's pretty ridiculous to say that Gaza is more easily defended than Israel.

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - Nan3cy - 04-16-2015

(04-16-2015, 01:26 PM)BurgXXIII link Wrote:This seems to me to be the most intractable problem: Having Israel be a democratic Jewish state that isn't too microscopically small to be functional or defensible.

The first time I thought I had any minimal understanding of the complexities of the Middle East was when I read Tom Friedman's From Beirut to Jerusalem. The passage that has stuck with me is when he said that Israel wants three things: (1) the historic Israel; (2) a democratic Israel; and (3) a Jewish Israel. He said it is impossible for all three to happen, and Israelis have to figure out which two of the three they want the most.

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - yvonne - 04-16-2015

I heard Ehud Barak speak at Flint Center, and he said the problem was that there's a tension between 2 and 3, and that he saw a two-state solution as the only way to solve that. With birth rates as they are, the future population of Israel could be Arabs and ultra-religious Jews.

I don't think anyone except the really religious are concerned about 1.

As far as Gaza being easy to defend, you'll note that Egypt hasn't traditionally been open to them, either. In 2005, Israel uprooted thousands of its citizens from their established homes in Gaza. The result was using that land to launch missiles at Sderot. I can't imagine many Israelis feel secure in giving up more land in light of this.

Somehow, negotiators have to find a way to raise the standard of living for Gazans and residents of the West Bank (which basically function as two separate political entities), while leaving Israelis feeling secure.

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - BostonCard - 04-16-2015

I appreciate the respectful discussion here.

My experience (I am Jewish, for whatever it is worth) at Stanford in the mid-90's was completely devoid of anti-semitism. I can't come up with any episodes that even approached that.  Maybe it helped that the Oslo accords had just been signed, and that Israeli/Arab tensions were at an ebb, and there was optimism about a lasting peace.

I agree that there is a tendency to conflate criticism of Israeli policies with anti-semitism. Like others, I don't agree with all the policies of Israel (especially under the current Likud government), but that doesn't mean I'm a self-hating Jew.  Nor does it mean that I consider non-Jews who criticize Israel to be antisemitic. Of course, I can say that without having to worry about a a rocket landing on my house randomly, or a bus I'm on being blown up, and that does change the calculus somewhat.  Nonetheless, I do believe that Israel's long-term security is probably best guaranteed by arriving at a two-state solution that would allow it to live in peace with most of its neighbors.

There are, however, those whose criticism is so over-the-top that it veers into anti-semitism.

As for the critique that Israel is treated more harshly than other neighbors, I like to think that's because we have higher expectations.  Just as I hold US actions to a higher standard than other countries because I want my own country to occupy the moral high ground, I want the same for Israel.

BC

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - stupac2 - 04-16-2015

(04-16-2015, 09:45 AM)Ronnietrader link Wrote:Antisemitism has risen over campuses across the country over the past few years, in particular on the West Coast as many in the "progressive" community view Israel as a colonial, racist, aggressor.  Hence, many programs/displays/student government motions have targeted Israel which flirts and often crosses the line of antisemitism.  Many Jewish students have cited cases of bullying.  That being said, I NEVER encountered antisemitism as a student but that was 25 years ago.  Stanford has always had a much lower percentage of Jews than the Ivies given the proximity to the NYC area for the latter.  There are movements among the student population to divest there, but they have always failed.

My problem is association with those beliefs as antisemitism. It's entirely possible to believe that Jews are just another kind of people in this world and that Israel is doing bad things. Conflating criticism of Israel with antisemitism is beyond absurd.



Someone else mentioned singling Israel out in this regard, and from my perspective I think it's because Israel is one of the few counties where it could conceivably work. Putin clearly doesn't care what the west thinks about him and sanctions haven't changed his outlook. Same with Iran, North Korea, and whatever other crazy-ass state you could name. But unlike those states, Israel wants to think of itself as noble, as good, and emphasizing "hey, you're doing bad things" makes that harder and is legitimate.

Though I have to say I don't think it actually matters. I guess divestment could make you sleep better at night, in that you're doing the only thing you really can, but Israeli politicians, like all politicians, are responding to local concerns, and I really doubt those concerns are going to change with a handful of US universities divesting.

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - BostonCard - 04-16-2015

(04-16-2015, 02:56 PM)stupac2 link Wrote:[quote author=Ronnietrader link=topic=12033.msg116857#msg116857 date=1429202737]
Antisemitism has risen over campuses across the country over the past few years, in particular on the West Coast as many in the "progressive" community view Israel as a colonial, racist, aggressor.  Hence, many programs/displays/student government motions have targeted Israel which flirts and often crosses the line of antisemitism.  Many Jewish students have cited cases of bullying.  That being said, I NEVER encountered antisemitism as a student but that was 25 years ago.  Stanford has always had a much lower percentage of Jews than the Ivies given the proximity to the NYC area for the latter.  There are movements among the student population to divest there, but they have always failed.

My problem is association with those beliefs as antisemitism. It's entirely possible to believe that Jews are just another kind of people in this world and that Israel is doing bad things. Conflating criticism of Israel with antisemitism is beyond absurd.



Someone else mentioned singling Israel out in this regard, and from my perspective I think it's because Israel is one of the few counties where it could conceivably work. Putin clearly doesn't care what the west thinks about him and sanctions haven't changed his outlook. Same with Iran, North Korea, and whatever other crazy-ass state you could name. But unlike those states, Israel wants to think of itself as noble, as good, and emphasizing "hey, you're doing bad things" makes that harder and is legitimate.

Though I have to say I don't think it actually matters. I guess divestment could make you sleep better at night, in that you're doing the only thing you really can, but Israeli politicians, like all politicians, are responding to local concerns, and I really doubt those concerns are going to change with a handful of US universities divesting.
[/quote]

Also, it is worth noting that we have sanctions in place against Russia for their behavior against Ukraine, that are much more economically damaging than divestment could possibly be.  It carries the weight of the US government, so there is no need for a divestment campaign.  We have essentially no trade with North Korea because of sanctions.  Syria and North Korea are listed as one of fourthree (now that Cuba is off) state sponsors of terrorism.  Divestment, though it generates a lot of healthy debate, pales in comparison to our policy towards those nations.

China is in a bit of a different boat.  But even then, it is not like there isn't a campus Free Tibet movement.  It's not quite a move for divestment (perhaps because it would mean divestment from essentially every company  that does international business), but it is not like China has been untouchable in this regard.

BC

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - CornFed - 04-16-2015

There certainly appears to have been broad agreement that a two-state solution is ultimately the desired outcome.  But I took Netanyahu's recent comments to reflect that the potential for that is seriously constrained and greatly in doubt when one of the two states is committed to the destruction of the other.

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - stupac2 - 04-16-2015

Here's an article about these topics that I read recently and found interesting: http://www.vox.com/2015/4/13/8390387/israel-dark-future

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - CornFed - 04-16-2015

(04-16-2015, 03:48 PM)stupac2 link Wrote:Here's an article about these topics that I read recently and found interesting: http://www.vox.com/2015/4/13/8390387/israel-dark-future
I am struck in this article by the monolithic focus on Israel as the sole determinant of the outcome of the forces in play.  I believe the author correctly identifies the erosion to its democratic ideals as Israel continues the occupation of areas that were previously Palestinian.  Nonetheless, I have heard no defenses of that occupation that were not persuasively grounded in existential priorities.  Despite that existential concern, Israel has twice made offers of compromise that were stunning in their reach.  Those offers were unceremoniously rejected.  Israel has effectively ceded territory that, as I think Yvonne pointed out previously, was then used to launch missiles into Israel's populated areas.

So I think the temptation to describe right-wing elements in Israel as trying to squelch democracy vastly oversimplifies the motivations of those who promote caution and even cynicism in considering the advice and urgings of the world outside their country.  It is not an issue related exclusively to whether or not one is in favor of democratic principles.  It also entails the very real and demonstrated threats from nations who seek their destruction.

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - fullmetal - 04-16-2015

It seems the SOCC, or possibly large swaths of the student body, may be using Jewish identity as a proxy for "supporter of Israeli occupation/control over Palestinians"...and that would be a problem if so.

I'm unclear as to how this would affect the day-to-day life of an engineering student, but I suppose if one were to run for student govt office, this could be a big deal :(

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - Stymie - 04-17-2015

I see (from The not-so United Kingdom, and as a WASP atheist) Israel as the Rodney King of Global Politics.  Israel has been consistently saying, for over 60 years "Why can't we all get along?!" and it's neighbors have used every ruse possible to build an international coalition to drive Israel out of their United Nations allocated (1947) land and into the sea, or into atoms, if Iran builds and self-destructively sends a bomb towards Tel Aviv.....

As per Monty Python, "What have the Palestinians done for us?"  Nowhere near as much as the Romans, or even the Israelis. I would argue....

an update - BostonCard - 04-20-2015

Molly Horwitz won a seat on the ASSU senate.

http://www.stanforddaily.com/2015/04/18/finleyhill-elected-assu-executives/

BC

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - BostonCard - 04-20-2015

http://www.stanforddaily.com/2015/04/16/hennessy-announces-planned-survey-of-campus-culture-safety/

Our provost alludes to the incident.  Nice words by him.

BC

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - TrumpCard - 04-20-2015

Something very similar happened at UCLA recently:  http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/06/us/debate-on-a-jewish-student-at-ucla.html?_r=0

I won't opine on the conclusion that the question reflects antisemitism, but I am confident that the question was improper.  In this country, we do not accept race, religion, or national origin as an improper "bias."  It is just not an arguable point that any suspect classification is a disqualifying characteristic for purposes of any official capacity.  For example, a gay judge in California struck down Prop 8 as unconstitutional, and sexual orientation is not (yet) a suspect classification. 

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - Spiny_Norman - 04-20-2015

(04-20-2015, 07:30 PM)TrumpCard link Wrote:Something very similar happened at UCLA recently:  http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/06/us/debate-on-a-jewish-student-at-ucla.html?_r=0

There is a Stanford connection in the UCLA story.  The student who was subjected to questions about her ability to remain unbiased "given that [she is] a Jewish student and very active in the Jewish community" is Rachel Beyda.  Her father Bill is a Stanford alum and was (I believe) editor for the Stanford Daily.  Her brother Joseph is also a Stanford alum and former Daily editor who co-wrote the book "Rags to Roses."

Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford?  I don't know to be honest.  But I do think it is a problem with organizations like SOOP and SJP (Students for Justice in Palestine).  They are antagonistic and divisive organizations that do not allow any opposition to their views or positions. 

Re: Is anti-Semitism a problem at Stanford? - Jskass - 04-21-2015

our hard tax dollars at work. Another reason to leave CA?