OT—former Stanford dean confessed to affair with undergrad student - Printable Version
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RE: OT—former Stanford dean confessed to affair with undergrad student - TrumpCard - 07-18-2024
(07-18-2024, 12:49 PM)cctop Wrote: And everyone in my peer group and all the younger people I know consider the relationship to have been inappropriate -- poor judgment on the part of the student and an abuse of power on the part of the dean.
I think most would agree that a relationship between a married 47 y/o university dean and a 22 y/o undergrad who was dating someone else at the time was inappropriate. I know lots of people in positions of power, but I don't think I personally know anyone who's been in a relationship with such a tremendous gap in age and experience. I know age gaps were common in my parents' generation, but in my circle, almost everyone is still married to their first spouse and spouses are mostly within a few years of each other. I know some people who got divorced and ended up re-marrying someone maybe 7 years younger. 47 and 22 is gross.
The question of whether the dean abused power is a different one. I don't have a strong opinion on that because of the lack of any sort of teaching or supervising relationship. Maybe there were details in the article that I skimmed that addressed the power dynamics in this particular situation, but I didn't see those details.
RE: OT—former Stanford dean confessed to affair with undergrad student - CardinalSagehen - 07-18-2024
The strangest part of this story is the dean's husband, who is portrayed as the supportive, happy-go-lucky cuck that knowingly supported the affair. Maybe it gave him license for his own extramarrital relationships? Different strokes, I guess.
On the morality question, a 47 year-old with a 22 year-old could be considered a gray area, but it's definitely inappropriate when one person is the dean and the other is an active student. That said, I think the public shame and the likely loss of her careers in politics and academia are quite severe punishments for Ms. Lythcott-Haims.
Coincidentally, my kids (both teens) know each of the respective parties in this story personally. This led to a lively dinner table discussion in our home about grooming and what to do if it happens to you.
Lythcott-Haims was the Palo Alto City Council's bridge to the Palo Alto Youth Council, on which my son happens to serve. She often joined meetings to hear feedback and respond to ideas and questions. I can't imagine her continuing in this role working directly with teens in the fall. A 16 year-old is not the same as a 22 year-old, but honestly, does anyone really want to be parsing those distinctions? What a fall from grace for her.
The former undergrad, Olivia, now in her mid-30s, is a brilliant performer in local/regional theaters. Our daughter performed in a cast with her last year and always raved about her talent and wit. We met her on several occassions and she was delightful. I assume this is Olivia's way of dealing with a situation that has weighed on her for years. Maybe she also feels like something good can come of telling the story for today's young people.
RE: OT—former Stanford dean confessed to affair with undergrad student - jonnyss - 07-18-2024
(07-18-2024, 04:44 PM)TrumpCard Wrote:(07-18-2024, 12:49 PM)cctop Wrote: And everyone in my peer group and all the younger people I know consider the relationship to have been inappropriate -- poor judgment on the part of the student and an abuse of power on the part of the dean.
I think most would agree that a relationship between a married 47 y/o university dean and a 22 y/o undergrad who was dating someone else at the time was inappropriate. I know lots of people in positions of power, but I don't think I personally know anyone who's been in a relationship with such a tremendous gap in age and experience. I know age gaps were common in my parents' generation, but in my circle, almost everyone is still married to their first spouse and spouses are mostly within a few years of each other. I know some people who got divorced and ended up re-marrying someone maybe 7 years younger. 47 and 22 is gross.
The question of whether the dean abused power is a different one. I don't have a strong opinion on that because of the lack of any sort of teaching or supervising relationship. Maybe there were details in the article that I skimmed that addressed the power dynamics in this particular situation, but I didn't see those details.
not so rare for powerful men to be much older than their women partners. melania was 28 and donald 52 when they met. rupert is 26 years older than his wife and 36 years older than a previous wife. gerard butler 25 years older. george clooney 19 years older, bradley cooper 20 years older, harrison ford 22 years older, don johnson 21 years, ryan seacrest 23 years, alex baldwin 26 years, clint eastwood 21 years then 36 years then 30 years, steve martin 26 years, nelson mandela 26 years (last wife), william shatner 30 years, kelsey grammer 25 years, sylvester stallone 22 years. congressman john rose (tennessee) 24 years and she was 17 when they met. the list goes on.
possible that what is rare (and more often stigmatized) is for the woman to be older. highly publicized that susan sarandon is 12 years older than tim robbins.
RE: OT—former Stanford dean confessed to affair with undergrad student - Goose - 07-18-2024
(07-18-2024, 08:00 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote: On the morality question, a 47 year-old with a 22 year-old could be considered a gray area, but it's definitely inappropriate when one person is the dean and the other is an active student. That said, I think the public shame and the likely loss of her careers in politics and academia are quite severe punishments for Ms. Lythcott-Haims.While the "public shame" should IMO indeed cost Ms. Lythcott-Haims her political career, it is not clear that will be the case at all. We have significant evidence that much of the electorate (I fear probably most) does not consider personal morality, integrity or character at all in their political choices. If you appear to back the "correct" set of causes and are endorsed by the "right" people you are just fine, no matter what else you have done. It would be nice if that were not the case, but here we are. This situation is not confined to one party or political persuasion. It is demonstrably ubiquitous.
RE: OT—former Stanford dean confessed to affair with undergrad student - CardinalSagehen - 07-18-2024
(07-18-2024, 08:34 PM)Goose Wrote:(07-18-2024, 08:00 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote: On the morality question, a 47 year-old with a 22 year-old could be considered a gray area, but it's definitely inappropriate when one person is the dean and the other is an active student. That said, I think the public shame and the likely loss of her careers in politics and academia are quite severe punishments for Ms. Lythcott-Haims.While the "public shame" should IMO indeed cost Ms. Lythcott-Haims her political career, it is not clear that will be the case at all. We have significant evidence that much of the electorate (I fear probably most) does not consider personal morality, integrity or character at all in their political choices. If you appear to back the "correct" set of causes and are endorsed by the "right" people you are just fine, no matter what else you have done. It would be nice if that were not the case, but here we are. This situation is not confined to one party or political persuasion. It is demonstrably ubiquitous.
I agree. I have a feeling, in Lythcott-Haims’ case, that her own shame will cause her to stay out of the arena going forward. I’m probably wrong.
As for her continued involvement in the Youth Council, we’ll know next month. I wonder if one of the other parents will raise concerns to the program administrator if she continues? My guess is that she won’t let it come to that.
RE: OT—former Stanford dean confessed to affair with undergrad student - TrumpCard - 07-18-2024
As for the billionaires, their marriages seem mostly transactional. Melania, for example, was asked in an interview if she would have married her husband if he didn't have money, and she responded something about her husband marrying her for youth and looks. Some people might think that's fine. I think it's inappropriate/gross and I'll re-affirm that I don't personally know anyone with such an age and experience gap as there was between the Trumps. The Murdoch situation is even worse. 92 and 67 when they married. She's just hoping he dies asap, unless her prenup says she gets paid by the day/month/year they are married and he's still alive in which case she's hoping for a long-term coma.
Some celebrity situations arguably are a little different. The old guys arguably are silver foxes who aren't outkicking their coverage by as much as we might think. Calista Flockhart was in her late 30s and rich and famous when she married Harrison Ford. I don't get her decision, but I don't think she was bought or groomed or anything like that. Some of the celebs seem more like the Trump situation except with a lower transaction value. Maybe I'm overlooking the value of a sense of humor. To me, you have to have a sense of humor to think about getting in bed with someone 25 years older let alone marry them.
Maybe none of this is rare like 1 in 1,000,000, but when it comes to sex/marriage, we're still a country of prudes and anything less common than 1 in 1,000 is probably considered super weird and inappropriate. Maybe I'm projecting.
RE: OT—former Stanford dean confessed to affair with undergrad student - PAsportsfan - 07-18-2024
CardinalSagehen dateline='[url=tel:1721362815' Wrote: 1721362815[/url]']
Goose dateline='[url=tel:1721360097' Wrote: 1721360097[/url]']
CardinalSagehen dateline='[url=tel:1721358016' Wrote: 1721358016[/url]']While the "public shame" should IMO indeed cost Ms. Lythcott-Haims her political career, it is not clear that will be the case at all. We have significant evidence that much of the electorate (I fear probably most) does not consider personal morality, integrity or character at all in their political choices. If you appear to back the "correct" set of causes and are endorsed by the "right" people you are just fine, no matter what else you have done. It would be nice if that were not the case, but here we are. This situation is not confined to one party or political persuasion. It is demonstrably ubiquitous.
On the morality question, a 47 year-old with a 22 year-old could be considered a gray area, but it's definitely inappropriate when one person is the dean and the other is an active student. That said, I think the public shame and the likely loss of her careers in politics and academia are quite severe punishments for Ms. Lythcott-Haims.
I agree. I have a feeling, in Lythcott-Haims’ case, that her own shame will cause her to stay out of the arena going forward. I’m probably wrong.
As for her continued involvement in the Youth Council, we’ll know next month. I wonder if one of the other parents will raise concerns to the program administrator if she continues? My guess is that she won’t let it come to that.
https://www.paloaltoonline.com/stanford/2024/07/18/former-stanford-dean-faces-backlash-after-inappropriate-relationship-with-student/
She is stepping down from three committees related to youth.
-city/Stanford committee
-city/school liaison committee
-youth mental health task force
RE: OT—former Stanford dean confessed to affair with undergrad student - Nan3cy - 07-19-2024
(07-16-2024, 02:50 PM)TrumpCard Wrote: Nan3cy, is your speculation specific to Stanford? Based on the 2013 change in rules governing faculty conduct? Or is your speculation about general societal trends, including in response to #metoo? Is there decent data on the societal trends, or is data collection/comparison over time too difficult to allow for meaningful conclusions? I would like to think the world is bending in the right direction here, but I have no strong sense whether that is happening or not.
It’s definitely related to Stanford. I was there as an undergrad 65-69, a grad student 74-76, and I worked there from 1989 to 2008. I have no experience whatsoever with any other university. And as I said, it’s pure speculation, but I got to know my grad advisor pretty well and I got the distinct impression from him that this sort of thing was rampant in the 70s. I could easily have been misinterpreting, or extrapolating from a very small data set. My assumption that it still continues is mostly based on my view of human nature.
RE: OT—former Stanford dean confessed to affair with undergrad student - M T - 07-19-2024
(07-18-2024, 09:22 PM)TrumpCard Wrote: The Murdoch situation is even worse. ,,,<removed the details>…coma.
No matter how much in the public these people are, I believe your statement is in very poor taste unless you have data to support it
RE: OT—former Stanford dean confessed to affair with undergrad student - cctop - 07-19-2024
(07-18-2024, 09:22 PM)TrumpCard Wrote: The Murdoch situation is even worse. 92 and 67 when they married. She's just hoping he dies asap, unless her prenup says she gets paid by the day/month/year they are married and he's still alive in which case she's hoping for a long-term coma.
Reminds me of that old joke:
A 70 yr old man came to the country club with his gorgeous 25 yr old wife.
Friend: "How did she marry you?"
Man: "I lied about my age."
Friend: "You said 50?"
Man: "No, I told her I was 90."
(07-18-2024, 09:22 PM)TrumpCard Wrote: Calista Flockhart was in her late 30s and rich and famous when she married Harrison Ford. I don't get her decision, but I don't think she was bought or groomed or anything like that.
Harrison Ford is my wife's celebrity cheat. Even now that he's 82 I suspect she'd still jump at the chance. :-)
Though we just saw "Twisters" last night and Glen Powell might have become her new boy toy. He's about the same age difference from her as Harrison.
RE: OT—former Stanford dean confessed to affair with undergrad student - OCcardinal - 07-19-2024
Lythcott-Haims was the Dean of Freshmen, which Stanford described as follows: "The Freshman Dean's Office welcomes and integrates freshmen into Stanford from acceptance of admission through the end of the first undergraduate year. It addresses students' individual transitional needs, connects students to resources and opportunities, and cultivates an understanding of Stanford's history and traditions." Sounds like a glorified Orientation volunteer. How much power does such person really have over a 22 year old Stanford senior?
To me this seems less about power dynamics and more about two people in the same community hooking up. I support Stanford's current policy - it should be straightforward that all deans are barred from relationships with students - but this doesn't seem like a particularly egregious example of a power imbalance (age gap aside).
What bothers me more about this than the power imbalance is that even after Stanford asked Lythcott-Haims to leave (and let her pretend it was a personal choice), she chose to fully leverage her role as a former dean to launch her new career as a writer. She wrote a NY Times best-selling book about how she learned as a Stanford dean that parents need to stay out of their college kids' lives. And she did this knowing that Stanford had learned of her improper behavior from a student's parents. I've read that book and there is some decent advice in it, but I can't help think that the whole exercise was really about her being angry that a Stanford student's parents ratted her out.