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RE: Best conference for Stanford basketball and other sports - Mudhead - 08-05-2023

(08-05-2023, 12:45 PM)Snorlax94 Wrote:  
(08-05-2023, 12:29 PM)gocard14 Wrote:  I can almost guarantee that after realignment has sorted out, the next step (especially when media rights deals stop exponentially rising Im which is already happening), will be the conferences turning on themselves. 

First the sharks eat the little fish. Then they eat the smaller sharks. The true blue bloods will ask why Purdue is getting the same TV money as Ohio state. They will threaten to form "super leagues" unless the little guys agree to unequal revenue splits. Perhaps driven by tv ratings, prime time slot %, etc.
In terms of the big sharks eating the little sharks (or the old, dying medium shark eating some minnows), How feasible would it be to reconstitute a Pac-8 by raiding the MWC?

Stanford, Cal, Oregon State, Washington State, then try to get SJ State, Boise State, UNLV, Fresno State and SD State?

I think a CA-based conference, plus some historical Pac 12 teams, plus Las Vegas, would be a viable offering.

Would Apple+ still pay? Presumably, it’d be  lot more than what the MWC pays. Would the MWC teams all have to pay massive payouts to exit?
P
(08-05-2023, 05:07 PM)Mudhead Wrote:  
(08-05-2023, 12:45 PM)Snorlax94 Wrote:  [quote="gocard14" pid='394875' dateline='1691263789']
I can almost guarantee that after realignment has sorted out, the next step (especially when media rights deals stop exponentially rising Im which is already happening), will be the conferences turning on themselves. 

First the sharks eat the little fish. Then they eat the smaller sharks. The true blue bloods will ask why Purdue is getting the same TV money as Ohio state. They will threaten to form "super leagues" unless the little guys agree to unequal revenue splits. Perhaps driven by tv ratings, prime time slot %, etc.
In terms of the big sharks eating the little sharks (or the old, dying medium shark eating some minnows), How feasible would it be to reconstitute a Pac-8 by raiding the MWC?

Stanford, Cal, Oregon State, Washington State, then try to get SJ State, Boise State, UNLV, Fresno State and SD State?

I think a CA-based conference, plus some historical Pac 12 teams, plus Las Vegas, would be a viable offering.

Would Apple+ still pay? Presumably, it’d be  lot more than what the MWC pays. Would the MWC teams all have to pay massive payouts to exit?
 You have a creative mind and an optimistic outlook. I like that … but I have to admit, I would not watch Stanford play a lot of mid major teams. We wo t be able to recruit top talent so we won’t get to see it. I’m not talking so much about football and basketball where we have been in the doldrums and I still watch selected games ( down from 100%ten or so years ago) but womens volleyball and women’s basketball and softball. We have been fortunate enough to have womens bb tickets on the floor at the top of the key. Between our kids and us , a seat is never empty. But I could not stand to watch aStanford team composed of average talent athletes playing other teams with average to occasionally good talent.  I have been spoiled by excellence.

I just have no interest in a Stanford that walks away from excellence… in anything it does. If we do t get a shot at Big 10, let’s shut it down, build a monument and talk about what .Stanford .athletics was before mismanagement and lack of commitment destroyed it.

Please don’t take this as a critique of your idea; there may be a hundred or so family members and friends of players who will buy in.  If my grand daughters played, I’d go watch. But having seen the best and having been part of an institution that sought excellence, I have no interest in mediocrity.
(08-05-2023, 12:45 PM)Snorlax94 Wrote:  
(08-05-2023, 12:29 PM)gocard14 Wrote:  I can almost guarantee that after realignment has sorted out, the next step (especially when media rights deals stop exponentially rising Im which is already happening), will be the conferences turning on themselves. 

First the sharks eat the little fish. Then they eat the smaller sharks. The true blue bloods will ask why Purdue is getting the same TV money as Ohio state. They will threaten to form "super leagues" unless the little guys agree to unequal revenue splits. Perhaps driven by tv ratings, prime time slot %, etc.
In terms of the big sharks eating the little sharks (or the old, dying medium shark eating some minnows), How feasible would it be to reconstitute a Pac-8 by raiding the MWC?

Stanford, Cal, Oregon State, Washington State, then try to get SJ State, Boise State, UNLV, Fresno State and SD State?

I think a CA-based conference, plus some historical Pac 12 teams, plus Las Vegas, would be a viable offering.

Would Apple+ still pay? Presumably, it’d be  lot more than what the MWC pays. Would the MWC teams all have to pay massive payouts to exit?


RE: Best conference for Stanford basketball and other sports - Mick - 08-05-2023

(08-05-2023, 01:41 PM)BillBradley Wrote:  
(08-05-2023, 12:23 PM)Canalejas Wrote:  
(08-05-2023, 12:14 PM)StanfordMatt Wrote:  Every school in the WCC has a religious affiliation. I don’t see that working culturally.

I thought Pacific might be the exception but Wikipedia says they are Methodist. So you're right.  The others are all Catholic except for Pepperdine, whose affiliation is with the Church of Christ.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Conference

I don't think Stanford fits in a church league.
Crap. I knew there were a lot of Catholic schools in the league, but I thought it was more of a "private school" conference vs. a religious school conference. They probably wouldn't even invite us.

This really stinks. Stanford has enjoyed so much national success in many of the non-football sports and I loved so much of it as a fan - watching our baseball team in the CWS, our women's volleyball team win the natty 3 out of 4 years, of course our women's hoops team that has been great for a long, long time. If we join the MWC, kiss all of that goodbye. Few top recruits will want to come to Stanford and play the MWC schools when they could instead go to great schools in the Power 4 conferences (and get a bunch of NIL money too). 

We have to get into the B10. Do whatever it takes.

As a basketball conference, the WCC is quite strong, the 7th-rated overall basketball conference behind the Big Ten, Big 12, SEC, Big East, Pac 12 and ACC. 7th vs. 5th is not too bad. Gonzaga, 31-6, St. Mary's, 27-8, Santa Clara 23-10, Loyola, 19-12, USF, 20-14. And the religious thing is way overblown. The halftime exorcisms are actually a lot of fun...

RE: Best conference for Stanford basketball and other sports - Canalejas - 08-05-2023

Here's a peek at some figures for the two D1 non-football conferences that have a bunch of members in CA.

[Image: b1LdgW4.png]

The top half of the Big West seems a lot more like what we're used to.  Heck, it looks a lot like the Big Ten (except for the football.)  

Each western league has a little bit of baseball history to point to: 

Cal State Fullerton (Big West) has 18 CWS appearances and 4 titles.  
Fresno State (MWC) has 4 CWS appearances and 1 title.  
Pepperdine (WCC) has 2 CWS appearances and 1 title.  

As for the remnants of the Pac:  

Stanford has 19 CWS appearances and 2 titles.
Oregon State has 7 CWS appearances and 3 titles.  
California has 6 CWS appearances and 2 titles.
Washington State has 1 runner-up finish.

RE: Best conference for Stanford basketball and other sports - BillBradley - 08-06-2023

(08-05-2023, 11:18 PM)Canalejas Wrote:  Here's a peek at some figures for the two D1 non-football conferences that have a bunch of members in CA.

[Image: b1LdgW4.png]

The top half of the Big West seems a lot more like what we're used to.  Heck, it looks a lot like the Big Ten (except for the football.)  

Each western league has a little bit of baseball history to point to: 

Cal State Fullerton (Big West) has 18 CWS appearances and 4 titles.  
Fresno State (MWC) has 4 CWS appearances and 1 title.  
Pepperdine (WCC) has 2 CWS appearances and 1 title.  

As for the remnants of the Pac:  

Stanford has 19 CWS appearances and 2 titles.
Oregon State has 7 CWS appearances and 3 titles.  
California has 6 CWS appearances and 2 titles.
Washington State has 1 runner-up finish.
Very helpful, thanks Canalejas. The UC Schools help to strengthen the Big West, but the bottom half is dismal, both academically and athletically. Could you also post something like this for the MWC? Also, my somewhat educated guess is that the WCC offers better competition, top to bottom, in men's hoops, women's hoops, and women's soccer.

The figure $6M has been thrown around as a ballpark number for what the MWC members make annually. I would think we could come pretty close to that if we played football as an independent and had an interesting and competitive schedule that included ND, USC, Cal, BYU, and a few others with big fan bases. It could take a few years to build it up and figure out the best media partner(s) but $6M seems very achievable. If that assumption is true, I see no reason to join the MWC, which comes with an academic brand hit and thrashing of our other sports from a recruiting standpoint. The WCC would offer the softest landing, IMO (although there is the religion affiliation that we'd need to get around). If that doesn't work, I like the Big West next. Of course all of these options pail in comparison to membership in a Power 4 conference.

RE: Best conference for Stanford basketball and other sports - PalmTree - 08-06-2023

Quote:Of course all of these options pail in comparison to membership in a Power 4 conference.

Agree - P4 membership should be #1 on our bucket list.....

Sorry, but laughing a little at this whole s**t show that's come down these last couple of days sure beats the alternative.

RE: Best conference for Stanford basketball and other sports - chrisk - 08-06-2023

Timely action is and has been hindered by the fact that Cal and Stanford both have lame duck presidents.

The Pacxx conference has earned many millions of NCAA units over the last 6 years. There would be significant value in keeping the conference alive to collect those payments which are due over the next 6 years (and being split only 4 ways instead of 12). For scheduling, enter alliances with MWC for football and possibly with WCC and Big West for other sports.

Mudhead - Mudhead - 08-06-2023

(08-06-2023, 11:08 AM)chrisk Wrote:  Timely action is and has been hindered by the fact that Cal and Stanford both have lame duck presidents.

The Pacxx conference has earned many millions of NCAA units over the last 6 years.  There would be significant value in keeping the conference alive to collect those payments which are due over the next 6 years (and being split only 4 ways instead of 12).  For scheduling, enter alliances with MWC for football and possibly with WCC and Big West for other sports.

I had not thought of that.. any ballpark for how much that might be? Are we talking a few million for each of the four or could it get to $20m per year?  I guess I’m asking whether it s enough to help build a new approach or just enough for a nice funeral?

RE: Best conference for Stanford basketball and other sports - norcard10 - 08-06-2023

(08-05-2023, 11:18 PM)Canalejas Wrote:  Here's a peek at some figures for the two D1 non-football conferences that have a bunch of members in CA.

[Image: b1LdgW4.png]

The top half of the Big West seems a lot more like what we're used to.  Heck, it looks a lot like the Big Ten (except for the football.)  

Each western league has a little bit of baseball history to point to: 

Cal State Fullerton (Big West) has 18 CWS appearances and 4 titles.  
Fresno State (MWC) has 4 CWS appearances and 1 title.  
Pepperdine (WCC) has 2 CWS appearances and 1 title.  

As for the remnants of the Pac:  

Stanford has 19 CWS appearances and 2 titles.
Oregon State has 7 CWS appearances and 3 titles.  
California has 6 CWS appearances and 2 titles.
Washington State has 1 runner-up finish.

Can't wait to play all those absolute powerhouses in football. You thought attendance was bad now? just wait

RE: Best conference for Stanford basketball and other sports - chrisk - 08-06-2023

(08-06-2023, 12:31 PM)norcard10 Wrote:  
(08-05-2023, 11:18 PM)Canalejas Wrote:  Here's a peek at some figures for the two D1 non-football conferences that have a bunch of members in CA.

[Image: b1LdgW4.png]

The top half of the Big West seems a lot more like what we're used to.  Heck, it looks a lot like the Big Ten (except for the football.)  

Each western league has a little bit of baseball history to point to: 

Cal State Fullerton (Big West) has 18 CWS appearances and 4 titles.  
Fresno State (MWC) has 4 CWS appearances and 1 title.  
Pepperdine (WCC) has 2 CWS appearances and 1 title.  

As for the remnants of the Pac:  

Stanford has 19 CWS appearances and 2 titles.
Oregon State has 7 CWS appearances and 3 titles.  
California has 6 CWS appearances and 2 titles.
Washington State has 1 runner-up finish.

Can't wait to play all those absolute powerhouses in football.  You thought attendance was bad now? just wait

Not an issue. Those conferences don’t play football. Fresno and Hawaii play football in the MWC. UC Davis plays football in the Big Sky. Stanford will have to look much farther to fill out their football schedule.

RE: Best conference for Stanford basketball and other sports - BigJohn043 - 08-06-2023

(08-06-2023, 12:43 PM)chrisk Wrote:  
(08-06-2023, 12:31 PM)norcard10 Wrote:  
(08-05-2023, 11:18 PM)Canalejas Wrote:  Here's a peek at some figures for the two D1 non-football conferences that have a bunch of members in CA.

[Image: b1LdgW4.png]

The top half of the Big West seems a lot more like what we're used to.  Heck, it looks a lot like the Big Ten (except for the football.)  

Each western league has a little bit of baseball history to point to: 

Cal State Fullerton (Big West) has 18 CWS appearances and 4 titles.  
Fresno State (MWC) has 4 CWS appearances and 1 title.  
Pepperdine (WCC) has 2 CWS appearances and 1 title.  

As for the remnants of the Pac:  

Stanford has 19 CWS appearances and 2 titles.
Oregon State has 7 CWS appearances and 3 titles.  
California has 6 CWS appearances and 2 titles.
Washington State has 1 runner-up finish.

Can't wait to play all those absolute powerhouses in football.  You thought attendance was bad now? just wait

Not an issue.  Those conferences don’t play football.  Fresno and Hawaii play football in the MWC.  UC Davis plays football in the Big Sky.  Stanford will have to look much farther to fill out their football schedule.

You know that the right answer is, join the B1G in every sport but Football and Mens basketball.  They have outside members like Johns Hopkins in mens & women's lacrosse, Notre Dame in Hockey.  I bet they would take us.  Join the WCC in mens basketball and stay independent for football.

RE: Best conference for Stanford basketball and other sports - chrisk - 08-06-2023

(08-06-2023, 02:05 PM)BigJohn043 Wrote:  
(08-06-2023, 12:43 PM)chrisk Wrote:  
(08-06-2023, 12:31 PM)norcard10 Wrote:  
(08-05-2023, 11:18 PM)Canalejas Wrote:  Here's a peek at some figures for the two D1 non-football conferences that have a bunch of members in CA.

[Image: b1LdgW4.png]

The top half of the Big West seems a lot more like what we're used to.  Heck, it looks a lot like the Big Ten (except for the football.)  

Each western league has a little bit of baseball history to point to: 

Cal State Fullerton (Big West) has 18 CWS appearances and 4 titles.  
Fresno State (MWC) has 4 CWS appearances and 1 title.  
Pepperdine (WCC) has 2 CWS appearances and 1 title.  

As for the remnants of the Pac:  

Stanford has 19 CWS appearances and 2 titles.
Oregon State has 7 CWS appearances and 3 titles.  
California has 6 CWS appearances and 2 titles.
Washington State has 1 runner-up finish.

Can't wait to play all those absolute powerhouses in football.  You thought attendance was bad now? just wait

Not an issue.  Those conferences don’t play football.  Fresno and Hawaii play football in the MWC.  UC Davis plays football in the Big Sky.  Stanford will have to look much farther to fill out their football schedule.

You know that the right answer is, join the B1G in every sport but Football and Mens basketball.  They have outside members like Johns Hopkins in mens & women's lacrosse, Notre Dame in Hockey.  I bet they would take us.  Join the WCC in mens basketball and stay independent for football.

The non-revenue sports are the ones where Big 10 travel would be a bigger issue.

For football, Stanford would have to find at least 6 opponents. ND does that through its agreement with the ACC. Stanford would need to make a deal, probably with the MWC.

RE: Best conference for Stanford basketball and other sports - Canalejas - 08-06-2023

NCAA conferences are organized around basketball.  Despite the term getting tossed around liberally, there is no such thing as a basketball-only member.  Wherever your basketball teams go, your other non-football sports go too, provided that the basketball home conference sponsors those other sports.  

Arrangements like ND hockey in the B1G and the various sports Stanford has in the MPSF come about whenever the home basketball conference (ACC in ND's case and the Pac in ours) don't offer some of the sports carried.

RE: Best conference for Stanford basketball and other sports - Canalejas - 08-06-2023

(08-06-2023, 10:29 AM)BillBradley Wrote:  Could you also post something like this for the MWC? 

You got it!  

[Image: mqxqWAR.png]

The MWC actually makes most of the Big West look even better, almost top to bottom.  It starts off worse than Cal State Long Beach and then plummets from there. But, to be fair to Air Force, being a liberal arts college makes them the least straightforward to compare to any of the others.  

Boise, well, they don't even get an individual ranking.  They just get lumped into the worst 100+ schools in the national category. And I know that the explanation usually involves pointing to the fact that they were only upgraded to a four-year school in the 1960s.  But that's also when UCI was founded and Irvine is now a Top 10 public school nationally.  

But, and this is a big but, the MWC would be considered as a conference for football and everything else.  Not just for the non-football sports.  So more would be on the line by calling that Stanford's new home.

RE: Best conference for Stanford basketball and other sports - ADPinWDC - 08-06-2023

(08-05-2023, 12:23 PM)Canalejas Wrote:  
(08-05-2023, 12:14 PM)StanfordMatt Wrote:  Every school in the WCC has a religious affiliation. I don’t see that working culturally.

I thought Pacific might be the exception but Wikipedia says they are Methodist. So you're right.  The others are all Catholic except for Pepperdine, whose affiliation is with the Church of Christ.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Conference

I don't think Stanford fits in a church league.

Early on both Leland Stanford and the first President of the University, David Starr Jordan (1891-1913) believed in Freedom OF Religion,
not so much disdain for it.  History shows that Leland and Jane attended a variety of Protestant Churches rather than not attending. 
He did serve as Governor of newly appended California (1862-1863), and as a US Senator (1885-1993; Cleveland era; Harrison). 
There are no accounts of the Bible steaming up when Leland placed his hand on one for being sworn in. 

For his part, David Starr Jordan is the author of "Religion of a Sensible American" rather than proclaiming to be an Atheist.  
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Religion_of_a_Sensible_American.html?id=lHwiPQAACAAJ

Lastly, as I recall, the University still hosts a prominent Memorial Church, where services ARE HELD.  
Unlike Europe, Stanford has not chosen to convert its Church into a Museum.  Instead it remains very ecumenical.  
Stanford is not an UN-religioius school; Stanford merely has not been affiliated with just ONE CHURCH from the very beginning.  
We have no quarrel with religious-affiliated Universities.  We are not an Atheistic Insitution; instead some faculty are. 
And prayer remains in practice among the student body during exam week.

RE: Best conference for Stanford basketball and other sports - Canalejas - 08-06-2023

My main experience with prayer at Stanford was to the God of Partial Credit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz4N7vaVoDk  


God damn, did I love those Fleet Street guys.

RE: Best conference for Stanford basketball and other sports - BillBradley - 08-06-2023

(08-06-2023, 04:22 PM)Canalejas Wrote:  
(08-06-2023, 10:29 AM)BillBradley Wrote:  Could you also post something like this for the MWC? 

You got it!  

[Image: mqxqWAR.png]

The MWC actually makes most of the Big West look even better, almost top to bottom.  It starts off worse than Cal State Long Beach and then plummets from there. But, to be fair to Air Force, being a liberal arts college makes them the least straightforward to compare to any of the others.  

Boise, well, they don't even get an individual ranking.  They just get lumped into the worst 100+ schools in the national category. And I know that the explanation usually involves pointing to the fact that they were only upgraded to a four-year school in the 1960s.  But that's also when UCI was founded and Irvine is now a Top 10 public school nationally.  

But, and this is a big but, the MWC would be considered as a conference for football and everything else.  Not just for the non-football sports.  So more would be on the line by calling that Stanford's new home.
Thanks for posting this. It's worse than I thought. We can't go there. Just can't.

RE: Best conference for Stanford basketball and other sports - Canalejas - 08-06-2023

Just a small update.  I added Oregon State and Washington State. I'm not sure if Wazzu slipped many places recently, but perhaps they did because I don't remember them being in the 200s.  Maybe I was thinking about some other ranking system, though USNWR is usually the default one to look at first.

[Image: eE77tOu.png]  

Wazzu's number makes five of the MWC members fit within the current range of our rump conference. I'm not sure if it matters that almost all of the schools in both the Big West and WCC would fit in that range too, as sticking with Wazzu and the Beavs probably only happens if we don't need a WCC or Big West to park the non-football sports.