The Call to "Shut It Down, Start Over, Do It Right" - Printable Version
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RE: The Call to "Shut It Down, Start Over, Do It Right" - OutsiderFan - 07-25-2020
The “can’t do spirit” that grips America today - and is on display in this forum - is way more responsible for the potency of this pandemic than anything about the virus or even our government decision makers. There is no end in sight until this changes. Therefore...
Maybe the authors of the “reset and try again” letter should have started at a much more remedial level that has nothing to do with the virus or the available approaches to getting control over its spread and attendant damage. I mean after five months of stepping on the pandemic rake, we all know what the available solutions are. They aren’t that complicated. The issue is not finding solutions. It is our ability to take the medicine and make the sacrifices necessary to implement them.
Maybe the writers should have started not by calling out those in decision making positions. Maybe they should have trained fire on the American people. Like Congresswomen Alexandria Ocasio Cortez called out those who dehumanize women, on the floor of the House of Representatives this week, maybe health experts and scientists need to call out the selfish stupidity and moral cowardice in Americans that allows decision makers in this country to make terrible decisions. Maybe we need to all be read the riot act and made to think much deeper about ourselves. Maybe we need to have a “coming to Jesus” moment about who we are and what we want to be. Maybe they should have called out the fact political partisanship and tribalism is the real problem we face that must be addressed, and the destruction wrought by SARS-CoV-2 is just a symptom of a much more debilitating disease.
RE: The Call to "Shut It Down, Start Over, Do It Right" - Goose - 07-25-2020
(07-25-2020, 04:51 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: The “can’t do spirit” that grips America today - and is on display in this forum - is way more responsible for the potency of this pandemic than anything about the virus or even our government decision makers. There is no end in sight until this changes. Therefore...OF, I agree with you that the public is the problem. The "Ask not what your country can do for you" ideal, and a sense of moral and personal responsibility has been pretty much absent for quite a while IMHO. Equally unfortunately, we have a bunch of politicians that are afraid of the consequences if they attempt to enforce a standard of behavior that is beyond what "most people" want to provide. They just don't have the moral courage to even try.
Maybe the authors of the “reset and try again” letter should have started at a much more remedial level that has nothing to do with the virus or the available approaches to getting control over its spread and attendant damage. I mean after five months of stepping on the pandemic rake, we all know what the available solutions are. They aren’t that complicated. The issue is not finding solutions. It is our ability to take the medicine and make the sacrifices necessary to implement them.
Maybe the writers should have started not by calling out those in decision making positions. Maybe they should have trained fire on the American people. Like Congresswomen Alexandria Ocasio Cortez called out those who dehumanize women, on the floor of the House of Representatives this week, maybe health experts and scientists need to call out the selfish stupidity and moral cowardice in Americans that allows decision makers in this country to make terrible decisions. Maybe we need to all be read the riot act and made to think much deeper about ourselves. Maybe we need to have a “coming to Jesus” moment about who we are and what we want to be. Maybe they should have called out the fact political partisanship and tribalism is the real problem we face that must be addressed, and the destruction wrought by SARS-CoV-2 is just a symptom of a much more debilitating disease.
Unfortunately, I do not believe that the public will just have a "come to Jesus" moment. Even if people at some point intellectually realize that the way they choose to behave is not helpful, for very many their attention span is now so short they will forget that realization in a few hours and go to a block party. They won't connect the two.
RE: The Call to "Shut It Down, Start Over, Do It Right" - Mick - 07-25-2020
[quote="chrisk" pid='286710' dateline='1595628433'
Who thought 4 months ago, Americans would make the Italians look good?
[/quote]
Italians are pretty smart. Highest average IQ in Europe, per this site:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/average-iq-by-country
RE: The Call to "Shut It Down, Start Over, Do It Right" - Goose - 07-25-2020
(07-25-2020, 07:35 AM)Mick Wrote:Italians are pretty smart. Contrary to popular belief they are also extremely hard workers, especially by EU standards. That said, much like Americans the people of Italy have a very definite sense of personal freedom. The are very aware of there "rights", some of which are undocumented in law but fiercely asserted. Italians also know that their government has the power to curtail their liberties. Troops on the street corners is not against any laws. The Italians felt no compunction about fleeing from the North to the South when the quarantine was announced. They were free to do this for six hours. However, they also allowed their nation to be shut down and to become a police state temporarily without so much as a whimper. Different rules, different national myths.(07-24-2020, 03:07 PM)chrisk
Who thought 4 months ago, Americans would make the Italians look good?
Italians are pretty smart. Highest average IQ in Europe, per this site:
[url=https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/average-iq-by-country' Wrote: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/average-iq-by-country[/url]
lex24 - lex24 - 07-25-2020
(07-25-2020, 11:32 AM)lex24 Wrote:(07-25-2020, 04:51 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: The “can’t do spirit” that grips America today - and is on display in this forum - is way more responsible for the potency of this pandemic than anything about the virus or even our government decision makers. There is no end in sight until this changes. Therefore...
Maybe the authors of the “reset and try again” letter should have started at a much more remedial level that has nothing to do with the virus or the available approaches to getting control over its spread and attendant damage. I mean after five months of stepping on the pandemic rake, we all know what the available solutions are. They aren’t that complicated. The issue is not finding solutions. It is our ability to take the medicine and make the sacrifices necessary to implement them.
Maybe the writers should have started not by calling out those in decision making positions. Maybe they should have trained fire on the American people. Like Congresswomen Alexandria Ocasio Cortez called out those who dehumanize women, on the floor of the House of Representatives this week, maybe health experts and scientists need to call out the selfish stupidity and moral cowardice in Americans that allows decision makers in this country to make terrible decisions. Maybe we need to all be read the riot act and made to think much deeper about ourselves. Maybe we need to have a “coming to Jesus” moment about who we are and what we want to be. Maybe they should have called out the fact political partisanship and tribalism is the real problem we face that must be addressed, and the destruction wrought by SARS-CoV-2 is just a symptom of a much more debilitating disease.
I find the two statements I’ll highlight from your post to be inconsistent. Which I’ll explain.
First, you talk of the “stupidity” and “moral cowardice” for which you call for a “come to Jesus” talk. A lecture. Do you truly believe that people would respond well to being lectured by someone on their “stupidity” and “moral cowardice”. If so, who gets to decide what is “smart ” and what is “moral”
Then you add that we should call out the “political partisanship” and “tribalism” as a real problem we must address. I fully agree with that. As long as we can actually discuss it without things devolving into one side calling the other “stupid” and denigrating the other sides “morals.” Indeed one of the cornerstones of our deepening political/ ideological divide is that both “sides” self-righteously believe they are not just right, but that they are morally superior. And cynical politicians exploit that.
When in fact, when it comes to “ moral issues” (and I use air quotes because I’m uncertain of the definition to be applied) there is considerably more agreement than disagreement; and where there is disagreement, if we could actually freely and openly talk, we might at least understand that those with whom we disagree are not our “moral” inferiors. We don’t have to agree. That’s fine. But with some exceptions (racists being the best example) we can at least try to hear the “other side” and avoid the self-righteousness that leads to our further division.
Let me give you an example. Two people embark on a European tour in early Mar 2020. They didn’t know each other but are assigned to room together. Covid hits. They are positive and forced to quarantine. On day 5, they decide to branch out a bit in their discussion. They address abortion. One says: “I’m staunchly Pro-life. Abortion is murder. The Drs that do it are are baby killers.” The other says: “it’s about a woman’s right to control her own body. No one has a right to tell a woman what to do with her own body. Pro-lifers are mysoginists.” Discussion ends. They don’t talk much the last 9 days. They leave feeling the other - and all who share their position are morally inferior. If not downright “evil”
Now same situation. But the pro-lifer explains the position by setting forth the religious (or other) reasons for the beliefs. But does so in a manner that does not attack the other sides moral values. The pro- choicer responds. Explains the history of women dying from botched abortions, The gut wrenching decision that a woman must make in an unwanted or difficult pregnancy and the position that a woman’s body is hers. Thus the decision is hers. And does so without slamming the others beliefs.
Are either ones mind changed. Highly unlikely. But at least at the end of the discussion and the quarantine they may have some better understanding of the others position. And simply agree to disagree. Without reducing the other to being morally deficient . And perhaps they feel a bit less of the “us vs them” mentality that permeates our discourse. Hey, maybe they felt empowered to discuss other difficult issues. And came away feeling better about the state of things. That there is a whole lot more we agree on than we disagree on.
I can dream, can’t I?
((Yes, I know. But I wove Covid in......). :).
RE: lex24 - OutsiderFan - 07-25-2020
(07-25-2020, 11:32 AM)lex24 Wrote:(07-25-2020, 04:51 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: The “can’t do spirit” that grips America today - and is on display in this forum - is way more responsible for the potency of this pandemic than anything about the virus or even our government decision makers. There is no end in sight until this changes. Therefore...
Maybe the authors of the “reset and try again” letter should have started at a much more remedial level that has nothing to do with the virus or the available approaches to getting control over its spread and attendant damage. I mean after five months of stepping on the pandemic rake, we all know what the available solutions are. They aren’t that complicated. The issue is not finding solutions. It is our ability to take the medicine and make the sacrifices necessary to implement them.
Maybe the writers should have started not by calling out those in decision making positions. Maybe they should have trained fire on the American people. Like Congresswomen Alexandria Ocasio Cortez called out those who dehumanize women, on the floor of the House of Representatives this week, maybe health experts and scientists need to call out the selfish stupidity and moral cowardice in Americans that allows decision makers in this country to make terrible decisions. Maybe we need to all be read the riot act and made to think much deeper about ourselves. Maybe we need to have a “coming to Jesus” moment about who we are and what we want to be. Maybe they should have called out the fact political partisanship and tribalism is the real problem we face that must be addressed, and the destruction wrought by SARS-CoV-2 is just a symptom of a much more debilitating disease.
I find the two statements I’ll highlight from your post to be inconsistent. Which I’ll explain.
First, you talk of the “stupidity” and “moral cowardice” for which you call for a “come to Jesus” talk. A lecture. Do you truly believe that people would respond well to being lectured by someone on their “stupidity” and “moral cowardice”. If so, who gets to decide what is “smart ” and what is “moral”
Then you add that we should call out the “political partisanship” and “tribalism” as a real problem we must address. I fully agree with that. As long as we can actually discuss it without things devolving into one side calling the other “stupid” and denigrating the other sides “morals.” Indeed one of the cornerstones of our deepening political/ ideological divide is that both “sides” self-righteously believe they are not just right, but that they are morally superior. And cynical politicians exploit that.
When in fact, when it comes to “ moral issues” (and I use air quotes because I’m uncertain of the definition to be applied) there is considerably more agreement than disagreement; and where there is disagreement, if we could actually freely and openly talk, we might at least understand that those with whom we disagree are not our “moral” inferiors. We don’t have to agree. That’s fine. But (with some obvious exceptions -real racism (or any other ism) being the best example) we can at least try to hear the “other side” and avoid the self-righteousness that leads to our further division.
Good questions and thank you for your sincere curiosity. It's hard to imagine anyone objectively saying we haven't as a collective society been stupid about our response to the pandemic, just based on how virtually every other developed country in the world has gotten control of it while we flail away and continue to absorb damage. I see this as a product of moral cowardice, like someone can't sacrifice anything for anyone else, even though doing so will in fact make things better for that person, because they are so afraid of who knows what. In sum, my post adds up to me making a personal commentary about what might be needed and reasons why. I do not advocate calling people stupid or moral cowards personally. I never attack or advocate attacking people personally. I attack ideas if I find them wrong or objectionable and do my utmost to avoid the word "you" whenever in a debate with anyone because that word can make arguments personal and people defensive.
The "let's try again" letter was directed at government decision makers. Alexandra Ocasio Cortez's House floor speech was addressed to men who dehumanize women. Both were strong objections to ideas and policy responses, respectively, without personally attacking anyone. My belief is the American people all need to be called out in a similar fashion as a collective.
To add some needed humor to this, here's a metaphor for how Americans need to be called out as a collective body of people. It's not perfect, but think of the Trekkies as Americans doing stupid stuff, thinking they are cool, and William Shatner as the someone calling us on the carpet and knocking us off our high horse. Only he doesn't say "just kidding" to us:
https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/trekkies/n9511
RE: lex24 - teejers1 - 07-25-2020
(07-25-2020, 01:28 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: The "let's try again" letter was directed at government decision makers. Alexandra Ocasio Cortez's House floor speech was addressed to men who dehumanize women. Both were strong objections to ideas and policy responses, respectively, without personally attacking anyone. My belief is the American people all need to be called out in a similar fashion as a collective.
We're so far afield of Terry Rule - which I think is poor policy, but that ship sailed a loooong time ago . . . about the time Garvin bolted, right?) - but I just have to ask: weren't AOC's comments directed at a Florida congressman who treated her in an unprofessional manner?
P.S. As a Trekkie (Old School), I of course appreciated the video clip . . .
RE: lex24 - 76lsjumb - 07-25-2020
(07-25-2020, 01:28 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(07-25-2020, 11:32 AM)lex24 Wrote:(07-25-2020, 04:51 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: The “can’t do spirit” that grips America today - and is on display in this forum - is way more responsible for the potency of this pandemic than anything about the virus or even our government decision makers. There is no end in sight until this changes. Therefore...
Maybe the authors of the “reset and try again” letter should have started at a much more remedial level that has nothing to do with the virus or the available approaches to getting control over its spread and attendant damage. I mean after five months of stepping on the pandemic rake, we all know what the available solutions are. They aren’t that complicated. The issue is not finding solutions. It is our ability to take the medicine and make the sacrifices necessary to implement them.
Maybe the writers should have started not by calling out those in decision making positions. Maybe they should have trained fire on the American people. Like Congresswomen Alexandria Ocasio Cortez called out those who dehumanize women, on the floor of the House of Representatives this week, maybe health experts and scientists need to call out the selfish stupidity and moral cowardice in Americans that allows decision makers in this country to make terrible decisions. Maybe we need to all be read the riot act and made to think much deeper about ourselves. Maybe we need to have a “coming to Jesus” moment about who we are and what we want to be. Maybe they should have called out the fact political partisanship and tribalism is the real problem we face that must be addressed, and the destruction wrought by SARS-CoV-2 is just a symptom of a much more debilitating disease.
I find the two statements I’ll highlight from your post to be inconsistent. Which I’ll explain.
First, you talk of the “stupidity” and “moral cowardice” for which you call for a “come to Jesus” talk. A lecture. Do you truly believe that people would respond well to being lectured by someone on their “stupidity” and “moral cowardice”. If so, who gets to decide what is “smart ” and what is “moral”
Then you add that we should call out the “political partisanship” and “tribalism” as a real problem we must address. I fully agree with that. As long as we can actually discuss it without things devolving into one side calling the other “stupid” and denigrating the other sides “morals.” Indeed one of the cornerstones of our deepening political/ ideological divide is that both “sides” self-righteously believe they are not just right, but that they are morally superior. And cynical politicians exploit that.
When in fact, when it comes to “ moral issues” (and I use air quotes because I’m uncertain of the definition to be applied) there is considerably more agreement than disagreement; and where there is disagreement, if we could actually freely and openly talk, we might at least understand that those with whom we disagree are not our “moral” inferiors. We don’t have to agree. That’s fine. But (with some obvious exceptions -real racism (or any other ism) being the best example) we can at least try to hear the “other side” and avoid the self-righteousness that leads to our further division.
Good questions and thank you for your sincere curiosity. It's hard to imagine anyone objectively saying we haven't as a collective society been stupid about our response to the pandemic, just based on how virtually every other developed country in the world has gotten control of it while we flail away and continue to absorb damage. I see this as a product of moral cowardice, like someone can't sacrifice anything for anyone else, even though doing so will in fact make things better for that person, because they are so afraid of who knows what. In sum, my post adds up to me making a personal commentary about what might be needed and reasons why. I do not advocate calling people stupid or moral cowards personally. I never attack or advocate attacking people personally. I attack ideas if I find them wrong or objectionable and do my utmost to avoid the word "you" whenever in a debate with anyone because that word can make arguments personal and people defensive.
The "let's try again" letter was directed at government decision makers. Alexandra Ocasio Cortez's House floor speech was addressed to men who dehumanize women. Both were strong objections to ideas and policy responses, respectively, without personally attacking anyone. My belief is the American people all need to be called out in a similar fashion as a collective.
To add some needed humor to this, here's a metaphor for how Americans need to be called out as a collective body of people. It's not perfect, but think of the Trekkies as Americans doing stupid stuff, thinking they are cool, and William Shatner as the someone calling us on the carpet and knocking us off our high horse. Only he doesn't say "just kidding" to us:
https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/trekkies/n9511
Question: Do you consider yourself among the group of stupid moral cowards?
RE: lex24 - OutsiderFan - 07-26-2020
(07-25-2020, 04:54 PM)76lsjumb Wrote:(07-25-2020, 01:28 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(07-25-2020, 11:32 AM)lex24 Wrote:(07-25-2020, 04:51 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: The “can’t do spirit” that grips America today - and is on display in this forum - is way more responsible for the potency of this pandemic than anything about the virus or even our government decision makers. There is no end in sight until this changes. Therefore...
Maybe the authors of the “reset and try again” letter should have started at a much more remedial level that has nothing to do with the virus or the available approaches to getting control over its spread and attendant damage. I mean after five months of stepping on the pandemic rake, we all know what the available solutions are. They aren’t that complicated. The issue is not finding solutions. It is our ability to take the medicine and make the sacrifices necessary to implement them.
Maybe the writers should have started not by calling out those in decision making positions. Maybe they should have trained fire on the American people. Like Congresswomen Alexandria Ocasio Cortez called out those who dehumanize women, on the floor of the House of Representatives this week, maybe health experts and scientists need to call out the selfish stupidity and moral cowardice in Americans that allows decision makers in this country to make terrible decisions. Maybe we need to all be read the riot act and made to think much deeper about ourselves. Maybe we need to have a “coming to Jesus” moment about who we are and what we want to be. Maybe they should have called out the fact political partisanship and tribalism is the real problem we face that must be addressed, and the destruction wrought by SARS-CoV-2 is just a symptom of a much more debilitating disease.
I find the two statements I’ll highlight from your post to be inconsistent. Which I’ll explain.
First, you talk of the “stupidity” and “moral cowardice” for which you call for a “come to Jesus” talk. A lecture. Do you truly believe that people would respond well to being lectured by someone on their “stupidity” and “moral cowardice”. If so, who gets to decide what is “smart ” and what is “moral”
Then you add that we should call out the “political partisanship” and “tribalism” as a real problem we must address. I fully agree with that. As long as we can actually discuss it without things devolving into one side calling the other “stupid” and denigrating the other sides “morals.” Indeed one of the cornerstones of our deepening political/ ideological divide is that both “sides” self-righteously believe they are not just right, but that they are morally superior. And cynical politicians exploit that.
When in fact, when it comes to “ moral issues” (and I use air quotes because I’m uncertain of the definition to be applied) there is considerably more agreement than disagreement; and where there is disagreement, if we could actually freely and openly talk, we might at least understand that those with whom we disagree are not our “moral” inferiors. We don’t have to agree. That’s fine. But (with some obvious exceptions -real racism (or any other ism) being the best example) we can at least try to hear the “other side” and avoid the self-righteousness that leads to our further division.
Good questions and thank you for your sincere curiosity. It's hard to imagine anyone objectively saying we haven't as a collective society been stupid about our response to the pandemic, just based on how virtually every other developed country in the world has gotten control of it while we flail away and continue to absorb damage. I see this as a product of moral cowardice, like someone can't sacrifice anything for anyone else, even though doing so will in fact make things better for that person, because they are so afraid of who knows what. In sum, my post adds up to me making a personal commentary about what might be needed and reasons why. I do not advocate calling people stupid or moral cowards personally. I never attack or advocate attacking people personally. I attack ideas if I find them wrong or objectionable and do my utmost to avoid the word "you" whenever in a debate with anyone because that word can make arguments personal and people defensive.
The "let's try again" letter was directed at government decision makers. Alexandra Ocasio Cortez's House floor speech was addressed to men who dehumanize women. Both were strong objections to ideas and policy responses, respectively, without personally attacking anyone. My belief is the American people all need to be called out in a similar fashion as a collective.
To add some needed humor to this, here's a metaphor for how Americans need to be called out as a collective body of people. It's not perfect, but think of the Trekkies as Americans doing stupid stuff, thinking they are cool, and William Shatner as the someone calling us on the carpet and knocking us off our high horse. Only he doesn't say "just kidding" to us:
https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/trekkies/n9511
Question: Do you consider yourself among the group of stupid moral cowards?
I informed myself about this virus since January and took it seriously from beginning. My mask wearing started in March and that was more to protect others than myself. That said, I am still tethered to the actions of my fellow citizens, so the answer unfortunately is that I absolutely am stupid and a moral coward because I am an American.