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Re: WBB: Stanford vs. Western Illinois 7pm Monday - TheFarm07 - 12-18-2017

This game is a microcosm of this season. Just when you think the team is making progress (2nd quarter), we play a miserable 3rd quarter as we allowed 21 points and our offense scores 14 to mirror the first quarter to see our lead narrow down to just 2.

Shooting below 40% and 16 turnovers...sigh...I haven't seen much improvement as a team so far this season.





Re: WBB: Stanford vs. Western Illinois 7pm Monday - CompSci87 - 12-18-2017

This game should drop us out of the top 25.

Re: WBB: Stanford vs. Western Illinois 7pm Monday - TheFarm07 - 12-18-2017

A step forward, three steps back. So many things to cringe about from this game...missed layups, atrocious free throw shooting, sloppy turnovers...please tell me what I am missing, but I don't see any progress. If we play like this against Tennessee on Thursday, it will be a massive blowout for Warlick's team.

I feel like the team is less than the sum of its parts right now, we are not even playing up to our combined level.

Re: WBB: Stanford vs. Western Illinois 7pm Monday - mbdude - 12-18-2017

when you have the height advantage on a team and half your shots (35) are 3 ptrs something is wrong. And something was definitely off with Alanna shooting tonight - so many missed layups and fts

will be interesting to see how Tara reacts to this - definitely can't say we showed improvement

Already talking about it on UConn Boneyard

Re: WBB: Western Illinois 71 Stanford 64 - Jskass - 12-18-2017

I'd like any insights from those who saw it live. I was stuck in a board meeting and was catching glimpses on my iphone GameCast. Third quarter terrible then completely fell apart in fourth quarter. Can't see minutes played but looks like Johnson was in there rebounding and Sniezek turning over the ball. What happened to Dodson who had played well in the first half? Also, did Carrington play? It seemed to show her as having played but no stats...

time to mess both with starting lineup and with minutes played again?

Re: WBB: Western Illinois 71 Stanford 64 - chimera - 12-18-2017

I aw it live and I'm sorry I schlepped my self an hour there and an hour back to see it.  Oh my, that was bad.  We just cannot pass, even when we got a lead and played good D for a quarter, we turned the ball over way too much.  We can't make good entry passes and when we got the ball inside, our bigs were too slow to make a move, got swarmed, either missed or turned it over too much.  Terrible defense, poor rebounding, line-ups changing by the minute, no flow.  Everything is too slow.  I don't know what the offense was trying to do.  None of us in the stands around me could tell.  We did not look well coached, I hate to say.  Yes, team is young, and yes we have significant injuries, but I'm sorry, we should have slaughtered that team.  They did not even beat us with threes or brilliant shooting.  They beat us by driving on us and making layups, which we could not defend.  Maybe changing the offense significantly every couple of seasons is not a brilliant strategy? 

Alanna looked tired.  She started ok and had a few tough baskets later, but overall she struggled with their double teams.  Kaylee could not score, which is not new.  I think the Coffee starting experiment is probably over.  Our young guards do some nice things but we lack someone to take over the ball handling and be solid as a rock.  That person should be Marta, but she turns the ball over too much too, and her lack of offense really hurts.  Do we win this game with McPhee and Carrington?  Almost certainly, but that does not change the fact that even without them we should have won.  As we lost the lead and they went ahead Tara did not call time out.  We never really regrouped.  They won going away.  They had a smaller team, not super quick, no reason we could not defend them.  Anyone who starts on oh they were good, no they were a team we should have taken to the cleaners.  Yeah they are good for what they are, but no way should the game even be close. 

Sorry folks, baring a miracle, this season is toast.  I can't see how we beat good teams when we consistently cannot take care of the ball, and when we don't play good defense often enough.  I think we should drop out of the top 25.  We are not going to beat TN, UCLA, or even USC playing like this.  I was a fan back when we had seasons when we struggled and never would have contemplated not showing up for games, but times have changed.  There are not all the fun events associated with games like FBC used to have, nobody cares much about fans anymore, and you can tell by the attendance that fans notice.    It is now show up and watch, then go home, and tickets are not cheap.  So if what I watch is not enjoyable, I am not showing up out of some obligation.  I'm staying home Thurs.  Yes, it was that brutal to watch.  Sports are a hobby, an escape from the bad parts of life (and boy do I need that lately), but this is just not fun, in fact, it is making me cranky to watch. 

Re: WBB: Western Illinois 71 Stanford 64 - 81alum - 12-18-2017

The post-mortem is done at the top.

I do not think the season is completely lost, since I think we will gradually improve as our young players continue to learn and as we get back McPhee and Carrington.  We have talent, we have coaching, and we always play better later in the season than earlier.  So it will get better than this sad, sad night.

But we are in a race against time, now.  Can Tara improve this team fast enough to have a winning season?  To make the NCAAs?  Sadly, those are reasonable questions right now.  I will count us quite lucky if we can win 1 of the next 3 and head into the new year 7-7.

I do not blame Marta for ball handling tonight.  She had 6 assists to 3 turnovers.  Kaylee had 4 turnovers, Williams had 3, and just about everyone else had 2.  It is the nature of Western Illinois's defense--they always get a lot of steals.  Marta's problem was that she had 0 points.

What I am grudgingly learning is what Tara has known all along--defense at the college level is very difficult for young players to learn.  Despite the fact that Karlie was not a particularly gifted athlete she was always in the right place at the right time.  Bri and Bird too.  We have figured out ways to replace their offense.  We are far, far from being able to replace their defense, as the 5'4" Western Illinois point guard made abundantly clear.

Re: WBB: Western Illinois 71 Stanford 64 - TheFarm07 - 12-18-2017

A lot can happen over the next three months, but at this point, we are not a very good team, for all the reasons mentioned above.

I thought this was the year Alanna could separate herself and make even bigger strides as a top player not only in conference, but perhaps make national attention. Yes, she had a monster game against Ohio State, but this game was really disappointing. In a must-win game against an inferior opponent with three tough games coming up and two other top scorers out, it was her time to shine. She did score the most points, but she was highly inefficient, missing layups, getting blocked and missing free throws.

Maybe Tara wanted Kaylee's defense and rebounding out there, she did finish with 18 rebounds, but her offense was non-existent and even though Dodson started missing shots, I still think she is our best scoring option in the paint right now.

We also hardly saw Fingall in the game, after she put up a decent showing and showed some long range shooting in the UNLV game.

We can't also just rely on three point shooting either. It was amazing and sad to see Western Illinois slashing to the basket and we either settle for long range shots or turn the ball over inside. I saw Kiana hit a nice free throw line-range jumper hitting nothing but net and wished I saw more of that.

The problem was compounded by missing a few point-blank layups and our FT shooting was atrocious. We left at least ten points out there, which was the difference in the game.

I know Tara wasn't anticipating either Brit's or DiJonai's injuries, but she seemed so high on the team coming into the season. On paper, we should be better than this with our talent level. Maybe not UConn or Baylor-level talent, but clearly enough to beat Western Illinois handedly even without McPhee or Carrington. We keep making the same mistakes over and over again. I can take the losses if the team is improving, but every game, we are making careless turnovers and missing jumpers from a team that Tara promised would be a good shooting team.

Re: WBB: Western Illinois 71 Stanford 64 - 81alum - 12-18-2017

Now that the better boxscore is available, here are some additional shocking stats:

Points in the paint;  Stanford 26 Western Illinois 34
Points off turnovers: Stanford 8 Western Illinois 23
Free throws made: Stanford 8 Western Illinois 20

Stanford shooting: First half 42% Second half 23%

I suppose I should also mention the atmosphere at the game.  No band, no Dollies, no cheerleaders, now that break is on.  Not even the usual hoards of school kids who come on weekends.  The crowd was announced at 2254 but I was one of 3 people in a row of 14 season ticket holder--and I think that is typical.  Practically no one was in the upper area.  Rather than 2254 I would guess less than half that was actually in attendance. 

I wonder what our game vs. Tennessee will look like, with depressed fans and a rotten start time at 6pm on a weekday night.

Re: WBB: Western Illinois 71 Stanford 64 - 2006alum - 12-19-2017

Yeesh. Every time I get hopeful about our team's progress, the next game proves to be a major regression. I didn't see the game, so I defer to those who did, but man, our shooting was bad. We have no excuse for shooting 31% against a team whose star player is 5'4". Romano was the only player who shot above 40%, and until this year, she was only getting junk minutes. Encouraging to see her progress, but it also says something about where we are as a team.

I am now perhaps beginning to understand Tara's enthusiasm for our team's prospects... in the future. Our upperclass leadership is not getting it done, and the underclassmen are the ones to be excited about. 81, I think we're hurting for Bird, Karlie, and Bri on offense as much as on defense. Consider this:

Sniezek played 29 minutes, took 2 (missed) shots, and ended with 0 points.
Johnson played 27 minutes and also took only 2 missed shots, and got total 1 point off a free throw (while missing 4 others).
Our leading scorer among non-injured players, Smith, went 8 for 24 and 2-7 for free throws in 35 minutes.

Think about what that means:
-Our three upperclassmen who played significant minutes prior to this season combined for 8 for 28, 3 for 12 from the line, and 19 total points.
-In 31 minutes Kiana Williams nearly matched (17 points) the output of Smith+Johnson+Sniezek in 91 minutes.
-If you count Wilson as a freshman (which she more or less is from the standpoint of playing experience), our frosh outscored the upperclassmen 37 to 25.

I cannot remember ever seeing stats like that from our upperclassmen, ever, in the decade and a half I've followed Stanford women's basketball. I know we're missing McPhee and Carrington (who herself is only a sophomore), but still. Sniezek, Johnson and Smith have all gotten significant meaningful playing time in final four type situations - they have no excuse for this in a home game against a non-P5 school.

If I were Tara, for Tennessee I would start Williams, Wilson, Romano (or Jerome if wanting to keep it all underclassmen), Fingall, and Dodson, simply to send a message to the upperclassmen. We're not going to win anyway, so she might as well use the game as a teachable moment.

Re: WBB: Western Illinois 71 Stanford 64 - TheFarm07 - 12-19-2017

Any transcripts from Tara's postgame press conference? I would love to hear her thoughts. I know she has to be gracious in the loss, but I bet she's just as frustrated as everyone here on the board.

Re: WBB: Western Illinois 71 Stanford 64 - 81alum - 12-19-2017

Yes, the audio of the press conference just game up.  Here are my transcriptions.  Tara is brutally honest and very critical:

Tara's first words were about defense:  "I'm very disappointed...a couple of things...their three point shooting, we played one good quarter of defense in the second quarter.  I thought we really let up coming out in the second half."

"Their point guard did a good job for them.  In the beginning we weren't guarding her, she hit two threes--she was 4/32 coming into this game.  Then we gotta guard her and she's driving to the basket...she did a really nice job for them."

"Overall it was very disappointing.  Not being able to hit free throws, not being able to finish at the rim.  We got a lot of good looks and just didn't knock shots down." 

Tom Fitzgerald asked Tara if the team was looking past this game to Tennessee.  "I didn't" said Tara.  "I don't know that anyone consciously did....This should be a great game for us--this should be a game where people can build confidence...but this is not how you want to go in to the Tennessee game."

Another reporter asked about the "visibly frustrated Alanna Smith" and what they did to her.  "She had shots and you gotta finish, and then, like you said, got frustrated.  They were more aggressive, they were more physical."

"I give them a lot of credit.  They came in, they played well, and they didn't even do what they were really good at, which is knocking down threes...they spread out and drove....we didn't get the job done on every single level.....We came back, we played a really nice second quarter, but you're not going to win going 3/15, going 3/11, turning the ball over 18 times, we didn't give ourselves a chance.  I was hoping that we could do better."

Fitzgerald reference the Harvard lost and asked Tara if this game was one of the worst regular season disappointments she's ever had.  "No.  Not really.  Some of it is we don't have Britt and Di, I think it would be different with them, this is a really young group--this (Western Illinois) is a good team--this is disappointing but it doesn't rank in my top 10."

"What's disappointing...whether its Kayl, whether its Maya, whether its Alanna--our post play we have someone going inside and getting good looks and we need to finish.  Not understanding how people might be using their body....to use your body...I though [the posts] got good looks inside.  I thought people on the perimeter had good looks.  We did not knock shots down." 

"I'm disappointed with our effort, our lack of aggressiveness, and it starts with me.  We have to look at this and get better.  This was not playing Baylor and Tennessee is a whole different group coming in here.....We have to be more competitive, we totally, our staff our team, need to be more competitive, we have to work harder.  I know that we have a lot of inexperienced or young people but you either have results or excuses, we don't have results, so I'm not going to make excuses.  We did not get the job done."

Asked whether our team looked fatigued at the end of the game.  "I don't think we are in the type of shape that past Stanford teams have been in.  Alanna to me did look tired, and she was short on her shot. "

And this concluding remark, which from the audio it sounded as if Tara was pounding the table with each team that she named:  "I hope it can be something our team can look at and learn from, but we are not going to beat anybody playing like this.  We will not beat Tennessee, we will not beat UCLA, we will not beat USC, we will not beat Arizona, we will not beat Arizona State--people play harder than we played.  The people who played hard either graduated or were not on the court."





Re: WBB: Western Illinois 71 Stanford 64 - crackpot - 12-19-2017

The things that were driving me nuts last night (besides Missy, of course) were effort and attitude. The lack of rebounding effort was ridiculous. WIU's coach said they'd have a chance if they got 15 rebounds. Heh. And did last year's seniors take their We're still in this! attitude with them? During the first half at the USF game, I hadn't seen the team be that mopey in nearly two decades. Thankfully, something happened in the locker room at halftime to set things straight. But last night? Eesh. The body language in the entire second half just radiated defeat.

WIU is a fun team to watch.

Re: WBB: Western Illinois 71 Stanford 64 - Phogge - 12-19-2017

From what little I've seen of them on TV they don't have a leader and they don't have a player with the ability to take over a game. It happens. Plus a bunch of teams obviously caught up. Have they lost the ability to recruit players like Powell, Wiggins and the sisters? And if so, why?

Re: WBB: Western Illinois 71 Stanford 64 - chimera - 12-19-2017

(12-19-2017, 09:53 AM)crackpot link Wrote:The things that were driving me nuts last night (besides Missy, of course) were effort and attitude. The lack of rebounding effort was ridiculous. WIU's coach said they'd have a chance if they got 15 rebounds. Heh. And did last year's seniors take their We're still in this! attitude with them? During the first half at the USF game, I hadn't seen the team be that mopey in nearly two decades. Thankfully, something happened in the locker room at halftime to set things straight. But last night? Eesh. The body language in the entire second half just radiated defeat.

WIU is a fun team to watch.

Great point and part of why I just wanted to leave the building.  Don't whine or get frustrated, get to work, focus, finish, be aggressive.  Nobody on the team showed much urgency when we were down near the end.  I hate to use this word but I will - it was pathetic.  Except for a brief stretch in the second quarter there was little fire, from anyone, coaches or players.  I knew mid-way in the 4th quarter that we were going to lose.  We went meekly. 


Re: WBB: Western Illinois 71 Stanford 64 - 81alum - 12-19-2017

(12-19-2017, 10:24 AM)chimera link Wrote:[quote author=crackpot link=topic=18382.msg218628#msg218628 date=1513702381]
The things that were driving me nuts last night (besides Missy, of course) were effort and attitude. The lack of rebounding effort was ridiculous. WIU's coach said they'd have a chance if they got 15 rebounds. Heh. And did last year's seniors take their We're still in this! attitude with them? During the first half at the USF game, I hadn't seen the team be that mopey in nearly two decades. Thankfully, something happened in the locker room at halftime to set things straight. But last night? Eesh. The body language in the entire second half just radiated defeat.

WIU is a fun team to watch.

Great point and part of why I just wanted to leave the building.  Don't whine or get frustrated, get to work, focus, finish, be aggressive.  Nobody on the team showed much urgency when we were down near the end.  I hate to use this word but I will - it was pathetic.  Except for a brief stretch in the second quarter there was little fire, from anyone, coaches or players.  I knew mid-way in the 4th quarter that we were going to lose.  We went meekly.
[/quote]
Tara thought so too.  Almost her own words (see above.)

I had the sense in the third quarter that if we didn't put them away early in the 3rd by widening the lead that we would lose-that we were playing with fear and that meant we could not play well in a close game or when we were behind.  Our players just do not seem mentally tough.  Not sure if that is coachable or not.

Re: WBB: Western Illinois 71 Stanford 64 - biketoc - 12-19-2017

Yes, last night was (hopefully) the low point of the season.  Props to WI for their fight and not backing down.  That being said, there was no excuse for losing with or without Brit and Dijonai.  I agree with much of what has been said about lack of intensity.  I think we have all been waiting for Alanna to step up and be a leader on this team, but that just doesn’t seem to be part of her makeup, at least not yet.  I think Marta wants to be that person, but she doesn’t seem able to lead the team.  Brit is more of the silent assassin type.
 
So, back to last night’s game.  I too was surprised at the starting lineup.  That lineup made perfect sense for UNLV, but looking at the starting five for WI I wondered why it was the same five for Stanford.  The only reason I could think of was because it worked before and Tara seems to make decisions like that.  Tara didn’t stick with that lineup for very long so it wasn’t really an issue.  What I really don’t understand is why she stuck with Kaylee and Marta for so long in the 4th quarter.  Even after Kaylee picked up her 4th foul she stayed in the game.  I wish someone had asked her about that.  As has been said on this board before when Marta and Kaylee are in the game at the same time it is almost 3 on 5.  Why, when your offense has gone completely cold, does she stick with two players who don’t even look to score?  My hope is that Tara was making a statement to the two of them that this is your opportunity.  Unfortunately both of them failed to step up.  Quite a bit was made about Alanna looking tired and not finishing and both of those things are true, but in the 4th quarter WI pounded on her whenever she got the ball because they knew they did not have to worry about Kaylee.  I think Kaylee is what she is and there isn’t anymore there.  I don’t intend this to be mean, it’s more about her ceiling.  Now it is up to the coaches to limit her playing time to situational substitutions.  Let Maya and Nadia get the experience they need.  They both have a nose for the basket on offense that Kaylee has never had.
I don’t think Marta has hit her ceiling, but she sure seems stuck.  I was a big fan of her from the first time I saw her play.  She brought so much energy and pushed the ball up the floor like no one since Toni Kokenis.  I always thought her biggest problem was going to be all the other players not being ready for her quick passes and that was true her freshman year.  Now her problems are too much dribbling at times, her reluctance to shoot and her turnovers.  She just really seems out of sorts at times.  Watching Kiana at the point vs UNLV really brought to light the issues that Marta is struggling with.

In the post game notes Tara made reference to how the coaches need to step up.  I thought the 4th quarter was all on her. I was so surprised to see her put on a press, but why wait so long to do it?  If her goal was to win the game then she failed miserably.  If her goal was to send a message to Marta, Kaylee and the rest of the team, then we can only hope it was received.  I try to keep in mind these are young women and this is a process. 


Re: WBB: Western Illinois 71 Stanford 64 - TheFarm07 - 12-19-2017

(12-19-2017, 09:41 AM)81alum link Wrote:And this concluding remark, which from the audio it sounded as if Tara was pounding the table with each team that she named:  "I hope it can be something our team can look at and learn from, but we are not going to beat anybody playing like this.  We will not beat Tennessee, we will not beat UCLA, we will not beat U$C, we will not beat Arizona, we will not beat Arizona State--people play harder than we played.  The people who played hard either graduated or were not on the court."

Thank you 81 for relaying Tara's press conference remarks.

I am struck by that last sentence: The people who played hard either graduated or were not on the court.  Basically, she called out everyone except Brit and DiJonai, including the upperclassmen, such as Alanna and Marta. I hope it's a rallying call for the team.

I remember in the 2014 FF game against UConn, when the telecast was showing the warmups and motivational speeches before the game, I was struck by the fact that it was Erica Payne, a seldom-used bench player who was pumping everyone up, daring the team not to be awed by the Huskies and to show the nation that we have the ability to beat them.

We need that confidence. As Billie Jean King once said, "pressure is a privilege." That means the reason you are expected to win is because you have the talent to win. We have that talent, certainly against a Western Illinois team.

(12-19-2017, 04:27 PM)biketoc link Wrote:So, back to last night’s game.  I too was surprised at the starting lineup.  That lineup made perfect sense for UNLV, but looking at the starting five for WI I wondered why it was the same five for Stanford.  The only reason I could think of was because it worked before and Tara seems to make decisions like that.  Tara didn’t stick with that lineup for very long so it wasn’t really an issue.  What I really don’t understand is why she stuck with Kaylee and Marta for so long in the 4th quarter.  Even after Kaylee picked up her 4th foul she stayed in the game.  I wish someone had asked her about that.  As has been said on this board before when Marta and Kaylee are in the game at the same time it is almost 3 on 5.  Why, when your offense has gone completely cold, does she stick with two players who don’t even look to score?  My hope is that Tara was making a statement to the two of them that this is your opportunity.  Unfortunately both of them failed to step up.  Quite a bit was made about Alanna looking tired and not finishing and both of those things are true, but in the 4th quarter WI pounded on her whenever she got the ball because they knew they did not have to worry about Kaylee.  I think Kaylee is what she is and there isn’t anymore there.  I don’t intend this to be mean, it’s more about her ceiling.  Now it is up to the coaches to limit her playing time to situational substitutions.  Let Maya and Nadia get the experience they need.  They both have a nose for the basket on offense that Kaylee has never had.

I don’t think Marta has hit her ceiling, but she sure seems stuck.  I was a big fan of her from the first time I saw her play.  She brought so much energy and pushed the ball up the floor like no one since Toni Kokenis.  I always thought her biggest problem was going to be all the other players not being ready for her quick passes and that was true her freshman year.  Now her problems are too much dribbling at times, her reluctance to shoot and her turnovers.  She just really seems out of sorts at times.  Watching Kiana at the point vs UNLV really brought to light the issues that Marta is struggling with.

At this point, I don't think we have much to lose in giving our younger players who might not have the experience but have higher ceilings to play. I agree that unless we have a healthy lead or need a defensive stop, Marta and Kaylee should never be on the court at the same. Even though Marta is a junior, I think at this point, it also might be too much to hope that she will ever get over her aversion to shooting shorter range jumpers. I groan every time she drives to the basket too, because she's not tall or agile enough against taller defenders to get that layup. Usually, it's blocked or she turns it over. Occasionally, she gets the call, but it's not a high percentage play.

Re: WBB: Western Illinois 71 Stanford 64 - chimera - 12-19-2017

It is very hard for Marta to drive in the half-court offense when her defender knows she hardly shoots and can defend the drive and/or sag and help clog the paint.  I thought we had players open more inside when we first got down court but did not pass to them and instead allowed the defense to set up.  We do not pass well to our bigs.  Often when our bigs had trouble it was because they got the ball when and where it was easy for WI to double team them.  The bigs contributed to the issue by not recognizing when they were trapped quickly enough and also being too slow to do whatever it was they decided to do.  Our passing generally is not organic in that it doesn't seem to be free, doesn't seem to be seeing opportunities early enough, and is too slow still to really make the defense uncomfortable.

Re: WBB: Western Illinois 71 Stanford 64 - TheFarm07 - 12-19-2017

(12-19-2017, 08:46 PM)chimera link Wrote:It is very hard for Marta to drive in the half-court offense when her defender knows she hardly shoots and can defend the drive and/or sag and help clog the paint.  I thought we had players open more inside when we first got down court but did not pass to them and instead allowed the defense to set up.  We do not pass well to our bigs.  Often when our bigs had trouble it was because they got the ball when and where it was easy for WI to double team them.  The bigs contributed to the issue by not recognizing when they were trapped quickly enough and also being too slow to do whatever it was they decided to do.  Our passing generally is not organic in that it doesn't seem to be free, doesn't seem to be seeing opportunities early enough, and is too slow still to really make the defense uncomfortable.

The announcer on the stream was also pointing out that our posts were putting the ball on the floor whenever they had the ball in the paint allowing the WI defenders a chance to swipe the ball away