Outside Topic OT: Giants 2023 thread - Printable Version
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RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 12-24-2022
this just in...Mets are now concerned about Correa's physical, too.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/report-correa-saga-takes-another-twist-as-mets-express-concerns-after-physical/#:~:text=The%20New%20York%20Mets%20have,to%20a%20deal%20with%20him.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Phogge - 12-24-2022
Meyers just killed the Giants.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 12-24-2022
(12-24-2022, 11:02 AM)Mick Wrote: this just in...Mets are now concerned about Correa's physical, too.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/report-correa-saga-takes-another-twist-as-mets-express-concerns-after-physical/#:~:text=The%20New%20York%20Mets%20have,to%20a%20deal%20with%20him.
Saw that. Curioser and curioser. I may have to eat a large plate of Crow. Goes well with a nice Cab…..
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Phogge - 12-24-2022
Maybe your “pal” has to eat it too.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 12-24-2022
(12-24-2022, 11:15 AM)lex24 Wrote:(12-24-2022, 11:02 AM)Mick Wrote: this just in...Mets are now concerned about Correa's physical, too.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/report-correa-saga-takes-another-twist-as-mets-express-concerns-after-physical/#:~:text=The%20New%20York%20Mets%20have,to%20a%20deal%20with%20him.
Saw that. Curioser and curioser. I may have to eat a large plate of Crow. Goes well with a nice Cab…..
So... is there some unwritten rule that says teams don't do due diligence with $300 million contracts? First the Giants, now the Mets? I mean when the Giants balked, shouldn't the Mets have been a little more circumspect, especially given the Kumar Rocker situation last year?
In any case, there is no reason the Giants couldn't have negotiated the same kind of insurance clause spoken about in the linked article about Mets having concerns about Correa too. Does Correa now end up going back to Giants? I'm not understanding the "it will be difficult for the Mets to get out of their deal with Correa based on Cohen's public comments" assertion. Anyone know how this can be the case?
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 12-24-2022
(12-24-2022, 11:45 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(12-24-2022, 11:15 AM)lex24 Wrote:(12-24-2022, 11:02 AM)Mick Wrote: this just in...Mets are now concerned about Correa's physical, too.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/report-correa-saga-takes-another-twist-as-mets-express-concerns-after-physical/#:~:text=The%20New%20York%20Mets%20have,to%20a%20deal%20with%20him.
Saw that. Curioser and curioser. I may have to eat a large plate of Crow. Goes well with a nice Cab…..
So... is there some unwritten rule that says teams don't do due diligence with $300 million contracts? First the Giants, now the Mets? I mean when the Giants balked, shouldn't the Mets have been a little more circumspect, especially given the Kumar Rocker situation last year?
In any case, there is no reason the Giants couldn't have negotiated the same kind of insurance clause spoken about in the linked article about Mets having concerns about Correa too. Does Correa now end up going back to Giants? I'm not understanding the "it will be difficult for the Mets to get out of their deal with Correa based on Cohen's public comments" assertion. Anyone know how this can be the case?
Trying to employ Occam's Razor here...
1. The Giants (and Twins, and Mets) did, in fact, do their due diligence prior to engaging with Correa. They likely did have a look at all of the AVAILABLE medical information prior to their physical.
2. Now it's possible, just barely possible that a major league professional baseball team, might, just might find in the mandated physical, medical evidence from an in-person medical physical that contraindicates the existing information that the team had prior to the negotiations. I know that sounds absolutely absurd. Let's take it another surreal step further...what if, maybe, just MAYBE, the Giants have a better medical staff than the Twins? I know that the San Francisco Bay Area is a medical backwater with chiefly incompetent medical professionals, but I suppose that in an alternate universe, a physician employed by the San Francisco Giants might have found something that a Minnesota Twins physician DIDN'T find. Can you imagine? I could... <<Sarcasm alert, for those of you who are on the fence about what I just wrote.>>
3. Final absurdity...an arrogant New Yorker making arrogant statements that ratify his personal decision before the medical evidence is in. Could that be possible? I know, since most New York billionaires are kindly, modest, self-effacing types not prone to making over-the-top statements that they regret later. In other words, it's just possible that Cohen's BS "trumps" the medical evidence, as it were. Incidentally, MLB warns team executives not to comment on pending deals, particularly since it gives leverage to the player in any arbitration or jury trial. Which means that Cohen has given away, for free, a significant amount of leverage over Correa. Oops.
4. The Giants, BTW, wanted to get other opinions. Boras -- possibly knowing the extent of the damage -- didn't want to wait. He went quickly to the Twins -- who also balked -- and then to the Mets and their bloviating owner, Steve Cohen. In the attached article, it is pointed out that contracts are generally completed within 24 hours of the physical. Correa's Mets physical was Thursday. It's now Saturday, and he's still not signed.
Excellent Athletic article here: https://theathletic.com/4033222/2022/12/24/mets-correa-physical-concerns/
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - ca245 - 12-24-2022
(12-24-2022, 11:45 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: In any case, there is no reason the Giants couldn't have negotiated the same kind of insurance clause spoken about in the linked article about Mets having concerns about Correa too. Does Correa now end up going back to Giants? I'm not understanding the "it will be difficult for the Mets to get out of their deal with Correa based on Cohen's public comments" assertion. Anyone know how this can be the case?If the stories of how Correa ended up with the Mets are accurate, the Giants never got a chance to negotiate an insurance clause. Once Boras (Correa’s agent) learned the Giants were hesitant, he contacted the Twins and the Mets and the Mets deal was done in a couple of hours.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 12-24-2022
(12-24-2022, 12:32 PM)ca245 Wrote:(12-24-2022, 11:45 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: In any case, there is no reason the Giants couldn't have negotiated the same kind of insurance clause spoken about in the linked article about Mets having concerns about Correa too. Does Correa now end up going back to Giants? I'm not understanding the "it will be difficult for the Mets to get out of their deal with Correa based on Cohen's public comments" assertion. Anyone know how this can be the case?If the stories of how Correa ended up with the Mets are accurate, the Giants never got a chance to negotiate an insurance clause. Once Boras (Correa’s agent) learned the Giants were hesitant, he contacted the Twins and the Mets and the Mets deal was done in a couple of hours.
The Giants wanted to get another medical opinion before they entertained insurance, or any other altered contract discussions.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 12-24-2022
(12-24-2022, 11:15 AM)lex24 Wrote:(12-24-2022, 11:02 AM)Mick Wrote: this just in...Mets are now concerned about Correa's physical, too.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/report-correa-saga-takes-another-twist-as-mets-express-concerns-after-physical/#:~:text=The%20New%20York%20Mets%20have,to%20a%20deal%20with%20him.
Saw that. Curioser and curioser. I may have to eat a large plate of Crow. Goes well with a nice Cab…..
When it comes to medical stuff regarding public figures, every situation is like an iceberg - far more that is unknown than is evident. We know very little because of privacy laws. The Giants may have overreacted, the Giants may not have overreacted. Unless Correa permits SF to fully disclose their findings we will never know the “rest of the story”. Because that is highly unlikely, we only have Correa’s performance over the next decade to tell us whether the Giants’ decision was a good one.
I wish him well regardless what happens. He appears to be a good guy.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 12-24-2022
I just read the Ken Rosenthal article in The Athletic https://theathletic.com/4033222/2022/12/24/mets-correa-physical-concerns/
There were two quite astute comments made by readers, but before citing them, some stuff in the Rosenthal story need to be highlighted. The injury of concern is that Correa has a metal plate in his leg as a result of a broken leg when he was 19.
Now the comments. First was that the Astros didn't offer Correa more than a five year deal, and they knew him better than anyone. The Twins gave him a one year opt out deal hoping he could prove himself into a monster contract. Second, someone pointed out how the Giants just watched Buster Posey retire at age 34 after suffering a similarly bad ankle injury at age 24.
So sure, give the Giants credit for being concerned, as the Mets now are, about the plate in Correa's leg. But, My gawd, you hired an assistant GM from the Astros, how the hell could the Giants have thought a 13 year contract made sense with a player who was known to have a plate in his leg that would cause concern? Is it possible that not all plates in legs are made the same? Meaning, maybe in some cases, plates don't cause any issues, but in others, they show some signs of deteriorating bone strength, and the Giants, then Mets saw something in an MRI that showed reason to be concerned? Might the surgery Correa had have been done by maybe not the best orthopedic surgeon?
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - BobK - 12-24-2022
From the Mets point of view
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/35315346/source-mets-carlos-correa-working-medical-issue
While OF is beyond embarrassed this good turn out to be good news for the Giants
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 12-24-2022
(12-24-2022, 01:20 PM)BobK Wrote: From the Mets point of view
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/35315346/source-mets-carlos-correa-working-medical-issue
While OF is beyond embarrassed this good turn out to be good news for the Giants
No mater what, if the Giants aren't getting Correa, I fail to see how this is good news for them. They could have "re-worked the contract" just like the Mets are reportedly ready to do and landed him just with less risk.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 12-24-2022
(12-24-2022, 12:37 PM)Mick Wrote:(12-24-2022, 12:32 PM)ca245 Wrote:(12-24-2022, 11:45 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: In any case, there is no reason the Giants couldn't have negotiated the same kind of insurance clause spoken about in the linked article about Mets having concerns about Correa too. Does Correa now end up going back to Giants? I'm not understanding the "it will be difficult for the Mets to get out of their deal with Correa based on Cohen's public comments" assertion. Anyone know how this can be the case?If the stories of how Correa ended up with the Mets are accurate, the Giants never got a chance to negotiate an insurance clause. Once Boras (Correa’s agent) learned the Giants were hesitant, he contacted the Twins and the Mets and the Mets deal was done in a couple of hours.
The Giants wanted to get another medical opinion before they entertained insurance, or any other altered contract discussions.
Giants never should have set the press conference. Once they did that any chance to renegotiate was gone. Correa had to feel disrespected. If they wanted to renegotiate, they may have had a chance if they did so quietly.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - BostonCard - 12-24-2022
(12-24-2022, 12:23 PM)Mick Wrote:(12-24-2022, 11:45 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(12-24-2022, 11:15 AM)lex24 Wrote:(12-24-2022, 11:02 AM)Mick Wrote: this just in...Mets are now concerned about Correa's physical, too.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/report-correa-saga-takes-another-twist-as-mets-express-concerns-after-physical/#:~:text=The%20New%20York%20Mets%20have,to%20a%20deal%20with%20him.
Saw that. Curioser and curioser. I may have to eat a large plate of Crow. Goes well with a nice Cab…..
So... is there some unwritten rule that says teams don't do due diligence with $300 million contracts? First the Giants, now the Mets? I mean when the Giants balked, shouldn't the Mets have been a little more circumspect, especially given the Kumar Rocker situation last year?
In any case, there is no reason the Giants couldn't have negotiated the same kind of insurance clause spoken about in the linked article about Mets having concerns about Correa too. Does Correa now end up going back to Giants? I'm not understanding the "it will be difficult for the Mets to get out of their deal with Correa based on Cohen's public comments" assertion. Anyone know how this can be the case?
Trying to employ Occam's Razor here...
1. The Giants (and Twins, and Mets) did, in fact, do their due diligence prior to engaging with Correa. They likely did have a look at all of the AVAILABLE medical information prior to their physical.
2. Now it's possible, just barely possible that a major league professional baseball team, might, just might find in the mandated physical, medical evidence from an in-person medical physical that contraindicates the existing information that the team had prior to the negotiations. I know that sounds absolutely absurd. Let's take it another surreal step further...what if, maybe, just MAYBE, the Giants have a better medical staff than the Twins? I know that the San Francisco Bay Area is a medical backwater with chiefly incompetent medical professionals, but I suppose that in an alternate universe, a physician employed by the San Francisco Giants might have found something that a Minnesota Twins physician DIDN'T find. Can you imagine? I could... <<Sarcasm alert, for those of you who are on the fence about what I just wrote.>>
3. Final absurdity...an arrogant New Yorker making arrogant statements that ratify his personal decision before the medical evidence is in. Could that be possible? I know, since most New York billionaires are kindly, modest, self-effacing types not prone to making over-the-top statements that they regret later. In other words, it's just possible that Cohen's BS "trumps" the medical evidence, as it were. Incidentally, MLB warns team executives not to comment on pending deals, particularly since it gives leverage to the player in any arbitration or jury trial. Which means that Cohen has given away, for free, a significant amount of leverage over Correa. Oops.
4. The Giants, BTW, wanted to get other opinions. Boras -- possibly knowing the extent of the damage -- didn't want to wait. He went quickly to the Twins -- who also balked -- and then to the Mets and their bloviating owner, Steve Cohen. In the attached article, it is pointed out that contracts are generally completed within 24 hours of the physical. Correa's Mets physical was Thursday. It's now Saturday, and he's still not signed.
Excellent Athletic article here: https://theathletic.com/4033222/2022/12/24/mets-correa-physical-concerns/
Mick, you are on a roll.
BC
Educated guess is that the X-ray showed something, like erosion or degeneration around the plate, which means that having a surgery to revise the plate will be needed sooner or later.
BC
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 12-24-2022
In looking at the Giants' free agent acquisitions, you have the following individuals, with their best recent WAR over the past few years:
Conforto, 3.9
Manaea, 3.1
Haniger, 3.1
Stripling, 2.7
Rogers, 0.4
Let's also take into account that the Giants keep Pederson's 2.8 offensive WAR, but given that he'll be playing DH, they lose his -2.1 WAR.
They lose Rodon's 5.4 WAR, but get back DeSclefani's 4.2 WAR.
Net/net effect, absolute best case, that's 14.1 WAR added. Let's say not everything goes according to plan, and the Giants get half that, seven extra WAR. Added to their 81 wins this year, that puts them at 88 wins in 2023...again, if they get half the WAR they want to see. The bottom seed in the playoffs had 87 wins last year. 83 wins would have done it in 2021, 86 would have done it in 2019.
Then, factor into account the new rules (infield shifts, 20 second pitch counts, bigger bases, fewer pickoff attempts) which are likely to favor both the Giants' fielders and hitters.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 12-25-2022
And now the Mets have concerns...
Report: Mets "have concerns" following Carlos Correa's physical - Sports Illustrated San Francisco Giants News, Analysis and More
Mets want further tests, as did the Giants, which Boras definitely didn't want.
Scott Ostler, cutting the Giants slack. Maybe they were right after all: A debacle, to be sure, but what if the Giants were right about Carlos Correa? (sfchronicle.com)
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 12-25-2022
(12-24-2022, 11:17 PM)Mick Wrote: In looking at the Giants' free agent acquisitions, you have the following individuals, with their best recent WAR over the past few years:
Conforto, 3.9
Manaea, 3.1
Haniger, 3.1
Stripling, 2.7
Rogers, 0.4
Let's also take into account that the Giants keep Pederson's 2.8 offensive WAR, but given that he'll be playing DH, they lose his -2.1 WAR.
They lose Rodon's 5.4 WAR, but get back DeSclefani's 4.2 WAR.
Net/net effect, absolute best case, that's 14.1 WAR added. Let's say not everything goes according to plan, and the Giants get half that, seven extra WAR. Added to their 81 wins this year, that puts them at 88 wins in 2023...again, if they get half the WAR they want to see. The bottom seed in the playoffs had 87 wins last year. 83 wins would have done it in 2021, 86 would have done it in 2019.
Then, factor into account the new rules (infield shifts, 20 second pitch counts, bigger bases, fewer pickoff attempts) which are likely to favor both the Giants' fielders and hitters.
WAR is an overused, overrated”stat” .
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - BostonCard - 12-25-2022
So basically, the only thing the Giants really did wrong was to schedule the press conference before the physical. And I guess going with Correa in the first place, but every player is a health risk (and that’s just the stuff you find during the physical).
BC
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 12-25-2022
(12-25-2022, 10:13 AM)lex24 Wrote:(12-24-2022, 11:17 PM)Mick Wrote: In looking at the Giants' free agent acquisitions, you have the following individuals, with their best recent WAR over the past few years:
Conforto, 3.9
Manaea, 3.1
Haniger, 3.1
Stripling, 2.7
Rogers, 0.4
Let's also take into account that the Giants keep Pederson's 2.8 offensive WAR, but given that he'll be playing DH, they lose his -2.1 WAR.
They lose Rodon's 5.4 WAR, but get back DeSclefani's 4.2 WAR.
Net/net effect, absolute best case, that's 14.1 WAR added. Let's say not everything goes according to plan, and the Giants get half that, seven extra WAR. Added to their 81 wins this year, that puts them at 88 wins in 2023...again, if they get half the WAR they want to see. The bottom seed in the playoffs had 87 wins last year. 83 wins would have done it in 2021, 86 would have done it in 2019.
Then, factor into account the new rules (infield shifts, 20 second pitch counts, bigger bases, fewer pickoff attempts) which are likely to favor both the Giants' fielders and hitters.
WAR is an overused, overrated”stat” .
Based on...what?
What single metric do you prefer to compare players?
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1642919-making-the-case-for-war-as-baseballs-most-perfect-statistic
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 12-25-2022
(12-25-2022, 11:50 AM)Mick Wrote:(12-25-2022, 10:13 AM)lex24 Wrote:(12-24-2022, 11:17 PM)Mick Wrote: In looking at the Giants' free agent acquisitions, you have the following individuals, with their best recent WAR over the past few years:
Conforto, 3.9
Manaea, 3.1
Haniger, 3.1
Stripling, 2.7
Rogers, 0.4
Let's also take into account that the Giants keep Pederson's 2.8 offensive WAR, but given that he'll be playing DH, they lose his -2.1 WAR.
They lose Rodon's 5.4 WAR, but get back DeSclefani's 4.2 WAR.
Net/net effect, absolute best case, that's 14.1 WAR added. Let's say not everything goes according to plan, and the Giants get half that, seven extra WAR. Added to their 81 wins this year, that puts them at 88 wins in 2023...again, if they get half the WAR they want to see. The bottom seed in the playoffs had 87 wins last year. 83 wins would have done it in 2021, 86 would have done it in 2019.
Then, factor into account the new rules (infield shifts, 20 second pitch counts, bigger bases, fewer pickoff attempts) which are likely to favor both the Giants' fielders and hitters.
WAR is an overused, overrated”stat” .
Based on...what?
What single metric do you prefer to compare players?
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1642919-making-the-case-for-war-as-baseballs-most-perfect-statistic
Relating to the Giants? Watching 150 plus games….. I understand WAR is a tool. But it’s overused in my opinion. Here’s how I break down the Giants:
SP. Webb, Cobb, DeSclafani, Maenea, Stripling. Wood. Webb and Cobb are a solid 1-2. From there, good depth, but essentially mostly 5’s. Maenea to me a key. He was a bottom 5 starter last year. They need him to rebound. Not a high strikeout staff. But should have good strikeout to walk ratio. Good at keeping ball on ground. ( See below on defense) Innings will be an issue.
Bullpen - Questionable as always. Getting to Doval a theme. Junis and Wood (who I think will be odd man out until injuries. He should be. Wood has been bad 3 of last 4 years) nice pieces as they can go multiple innings. Ty Rogers has always been valuable as a guy that can give you a lot of appearances and innings. Shouldn’t be a late inning high leverage guy. Alexander a nice lefty piece. High ground ball rate. Back end Taylor Rogers helps. Brebbia was good first half and then faded. Overused. Not great getting to 9th. Doval was lights out and should get better. Protect that arm as much as possible.
OF - Conforto, Yaz, Slater, Haniger. Left to right with Yaz/Slater platooning in CF. Better than ‘22. Probably most improved unit. Defensively probably a little below average. Yaz is an excellent RF. Nowhere near as good in CF. Slater takes a lot of bad routes abd doesn’t get great jumps. But he can run. Certainly not the sh-t show of ‘22. Offensively, could be quite good. Conforto obviously a big Q coming off injuries and a year that he sat out. Haniger could be their best hitter.
Inf. Never has “hit it to Crawford” been more true. If he gets hurt, it’s a big problem. Estrada should be ok at second. The corners are questionable. At best. Flores/Davis/Wade at first. Villar/Davis at third. That is a poor defensive infield. And please, take away LaStellas glove. Offensively? It’s average. At best. Villar - who knows. Davis looked good at times. Wade? Who knows. I’ve always liked Flores. But he’s best as a utility player with about 450 PAs.
Catching. Bart. Hopefully continues to get better. If not, catchers a problem.
Overall - pitching should be their strength. But losing Rodon hurt badly. Defense is still not going to be very good. Perhaps it won’t be abysmal.
Offensively - should be solid. Pederson also in that mix. Just keep him out of the OF.
Team speed - still slow.
Overall - 77-85.