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RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 12-22-2022
OK, now that the disaster has happened, it's now time to peel away the layers of this rotten onion and learn WTF REALLY happened. This is the story of the lifetimes of Giants reporters. Let's see who comes up with the full monty based on adroit reporting inside the organization, because it's gonna be a doozy. Before that happens, let's pose some questions that need to be answered and engage in some commentary about them.
Who made the call to nix the Correa contract?
It seems highly doubtful that Farhan Zaidi would be the one to balk at the deal based on results of this physical. Maybe he did, but it seems Farr more likely someone in ownership was responsible. It's dubious to me that Farhan would go to Greg Johnson and say "uh, boss, we found something a little concerning with the Correa physical, and I'm not so sure it makes sense to go forward on the contract now." It seems a lot more likely that Farhan would have said they found something, told Greg Johnson, and he said "that sounds too risky, we need to renegotiate." The other possible reality that would be kind of the worse case scenario, is Greg Johnson has a "mole" checking around Zaidi's actions, and the mole, not Farhan, brought the medical concern to the attention of Greg Johnson, and Johnson told Farhan to cancel the presser, etc. If it wasn't Farhan's call, and he didn't think the issue was that big of a deal or could be managed, he should resign.
HOW could the Giants not have done due diligence on Correa before agreeing to terms?
It's been reported that the Twins knew of the Correa physical issue and offered him more AAV than the Giants. Aside from anything else, the Giants should have known what the Correa concern was before they negotiated terms of a deal with Boras. Nobody with any wisdom would negotiate the largest contract in organization history without knowing before negotiations start that they know whatever they need to know to move forward. Just like you don't make an offer to buy a company until after due diligence, you don't make the biggest free agent contract offer in franchise history without without doing it. The Giants have plenty of owners who know M&A basics. Someone needs to get to the bottom of why they didn't do it with Correa.
How can the Giants square being afraid with the Mets and Twins being OK with paying Correa almost the same?
Everyone has different risk tolerance, but both the Mets and Twins were OK with signing Correa to a long term contract. It would be a bigger gamble for the Twins given they aren't nearly as rich as the Giants. The "he's been in the IL 7 times in 8 years" concern is a red herring to me. Every player can get injured and miss time. And FFS, a guy like Evan Longoria was on the IL what, 4-5 times in 2022 alone? Unless Correa misses months at a time with an injury related to whatever caused concern in the physical, the Giants will look even more foolish than they do just allowing this debacle to happen in the first place. And like was pointed out in the Chronicle on Dec. 21, the Mets balked on a contract with a player who had a concerning MRI JUST LAST YEAR.
How can the team possibly gain back the trust of fans?
The Grant Brisbee column on this pratfall has about 600 comments in less than 24 hours. I can assure you most of them are not flattering to the Giants. The most liked comment (222) is this:
It’s really, really hard to squander Three World Series In Five Years-levels of goodwill, but dang if this front office hasn’t done it. I say we dust off and nuke the site from orbit - it’s the only way to be sure.
Pretenders. Con-artists. Charlatans. These are the words the fans are using to describe the Giants in the aftermath of their latest debacle. And nobody gives a F about 107 wins anymore either. When you have the Dodgers and Padres running circles around you, are the 5th richest team in MLB, with the #14 ranked payroll, on a team without a bevy of talented team-controlled youth, you have zero credibility. I just looked at Spotrac's Giants payroll and OMG is it a a joke. Brandon Crawford is the highest paid regular player. A 36 yo declining SS. Really? Fast forward a year and the Giants only have THREE non-arbitration players in 2024; Haniger, DeSclafani, and Flores. WTF are they even doing? If Haniger plays well, he will be a trade chip this season as the Giants are circling the drain in July.
When do the excuses stop?
The Chronicle column referenced above ripped the Giants a new one in a very New York kind of way for their absurd "San Francisco politics turns off baseball players" pre-excuse before free agency nonsense. As the column correctly points out (and I have been railing about for years), you get passed players choosing other places when all things are equal, by making sure they aren't equal and paying more than anyone else. That's how it works. The Giants are too oblivious to understand they have a special tax on their incompetence, meaning it's going to cost them more to get top players anyone else wants, because the agents know how badly the Giants need to land someone to satisfy their fans. Throw the S.F. cost of living on top, and the Giants probably need to pay 20% more than the next highest offer to land someone coveted by others. One can only imagine what the premium on Giants incompetence and timidness is going to cost them for the next big free agent they do actually sign. But guess what, the Giants balked at Correa, not the other way around.
Is it time for this ownership group to sell the team? Is it time for the fans to boycott the team until they do?
I believe the answers are yes and yes.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 12-22-2022
(12-22-2022, 08:06 AM)lex24 Wrote: As for Cohen, the value of his franchise will increase. He will make money. But seriously why do we care? Lacob is way over the cap. And while they are struggling this year, he’s put together 4 championships. More to the point, the value of the franchise has skyrocketed.
The value of the Mets franchise should increase. It decreased four times in the five years between 2009 and 2014. It's increased every year since 2014. Is he making money? I doubt that very much, not with a $400 mms. payroll, not including a $111 tax bill. Their revenue was $153 million in 2021, but with a $384 mms. payroll last year, it's highly unlikely that they made money. And we only care as it a comparative to the Giants' ownership. The Giants' payroll in 2021 was $191 million. BTW, the Mets lost in the wild card in 2022, like the Giants did in 2021. Same result, Giants paid less than half. I'm not really in favor of spending stupidly.
BTW, the SF Giants are valued at $3.5 billion, the Mets about $1 billion less, despite having a much larger metropolitan population from which to draw.
I don't care about Lacob. He struck gold with Curry, Thompson and Green, when his payroll wasn't brobdingnagian. It paid off last year with the championship. The value of the franchise skyrocketed with four championships in eight years, something no other team came close to doing i nthat time period. They are sucking wind right now. Don't care about that either.
I care about signing and developing stars in a realistic fashion. Which I think Farhan does.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - BobK - 12-22-2022
Meyers to the Reds. We are soooo slow
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 12-22-2022
(12-22-2022, 12:18 PM)Mick Wrote: I care about signing and developing stars in a realistic fashion. Which I think Farhan does.
Name one star Zaidi developed for the Giants.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - BobK - 12-22-2022
I guess Webb counts.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 12-22-2022
(12-22-2022, 12:18 PM)Mick Wrote:(12-22-2022, 08:06 AM)lex24 Wrote: As for Cohen, the value of his franchise will increase. He will make money. But seriously why do we care? Lacob is way over the cap. And while they are struggling this year, he’s put together 4 championships. More to the point, the value of the franchise has skyrocketed.
The value of the Mets franchise should increase. It decreased four times in the five years between 2009 and 2014. It's increased every year since 2014. Is he making money? I doubt that very much, not with a $400 mms. payroll, not including a $111 tax bill. Their revenue was $153 million in 2021, but with a $384 mms. payroll last year, it's highly unlikely that they made money. And we only care as it a comparative to the Giants' ownership. The Giants' payroll in 2021 was $191 million. BTW, the Mets lost in the wild card in 2022, like the Giants did in 2021. Same result, Giants paid less than half. I'm not really in favor of spending stupidly.
BTW, the SF Giants are valued at $3.5 billion, the Mets about $1 billion less, despite having a much larger metropolitan population from which to draw.
I don't care about Lacob. He struck gold with Curry, Thompson and Green, when his payroll wasn't of immense proportions. It paid off last year with the championship. The value of the franchise skyrocketed with four championships in eight years, something no other team came close to doing i nthat time period. They are sucking wind right now. Don't care about that either.
I care about signing and developing stars in a realistic fashion. Which I think Farhan does.
Mick, let me put this as bluntly as possible - I don’t care about whether the owners make money. The organization screwed this up beyond recognition. Take a gander at what the national writers are saying. This goes beyond Correa. It signifies incompetence. You don’t schedule a presser to show off your new toy and then cancel it. According to Boras, Correas family was in SF to attend. Maybe he’s lying. But he’s out front making all sorts of comments. While Zaidi and Co hide.
As for “…signing and developing stars in a realistic fashion. Which I think Farhan does”, give me names please. Cause the Giants currently don’t have any “stars”.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 12-22-2022
(12-22-2022, 01:06 PM)BobK Wrote: I guess Webb counts.
Webb wasn't drafted by Zaidi's regime. He was drafted in 2014. And is Webb really a star? He's a quality starter, but has he been an All-Star? Won ROY? Maybe you can argue he improved under Zaidi's regime, but does this mean he wouldn't have improved no matter who was running baseball operations?
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Phogge - 12-22-2022
78 is ok. But you can’t cry either way. I want the surf and turf... a hamburger steak and two dozen oysters. Plus about seven San Miguel’s.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - cardcrimson - 12-22-2022
(12-22-2022, 01:19 PM)lex24 Wrote:(12-22-2022, 12:18 PM)Mick Wrote:(12-22-2022, 08:06 AM)lex24 Wrote: As for Cohen, the value of his franchise will increase. He will make money. But seriously why do we care? Lacob is way over the cap. And while they are struggling this year, he’s put together 4 championships. More to the point, the value of the franchise has skyrocketed.
The value of the Mets franchise should increase. It decreased four times in the five years between 2009 and 2014. It's increased every year since 2014. Is he making money? I doubt that very much, not with a $400 mms. payroll, not including a $111 tax bill. Their revenue was $153 million in 2021, but with a $384 mms. payroll last year, it's highly unlikely that they made money. And we only care as it a comparative to the Giants' ownership. The Giants' payroll in 2021 was $191 million. BTW, the Mets lost in the wild card in 2022, like the Giants did in 2021. Same result, Giants paid less than half. I'm not really in favor of spending stupidly.
BTW, the SF Giants are valued at $3.5 billion, the Mets about $1 billion less, despite having a much larger metropolitan population from which to draw.
I don't care about Lacob. He struck gold with Curry, Thompson and Green, when his payroll wasn't of immense proportions. It paid off last year with the championship. The value of the franchise skyrocketed with four championships in eight years, something no other team came close to doing i nthat time period. They are sucking wind right now. Don't care about that either.
I care about signing and developing stars in a realistic fashion. Which I think Farhan does.
Mick, let me put this as bluntly as possible - I don’t care about whether the owners make money. The organization screwed this up beyond recognition. Take a gander at what the national writers are saying. This goes beyond Correa. It signifies incompetence. You don’t schedule a presser to show off your new toy and then cancel it. According to Boras, Correas family was in SF to attend. Maybe he’s lying. But he’s out front making all sorts of comments. While Zaidi and Co hide.
As for “…signing and developing stars in a realistic fashion. Which I think Farhan does”, give me names please. Cause the Giants currently don’t have any “stars”.
Slusser was just on KNBR (might still be). Her main point is that the Giant's CAN'T say anything right now. First there's HIPAA regarding the medical. Second, Correa is still a free agent, so the Giant's can't comment because of the bargaining rules. Boras, as his agent, can say anything he wants and knows the Giants can't contradict him. When Correa gets signed by the Mets, then the Giants can at least talk about some of what transpired. Her words, not mine.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 12-22-2022
(12-22-2022, 04:16 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(12-22-2022, 01:19 PM)lex24 Wrote:(12-22-2022, 12:18 PM)Mick Wrote:(12-22-2022, 08:06 AM)lex24 Wrote: As for Cohen, the value of his franchise will increase. He will make money. But seriously why do we care? Lacob is way over the cap. And while they are struggling this year, he’s put together 4 championships. More to the point, the value of the franchise has skyrocketed.
The value of the Mets franchise should increase. It decreased four times in the five years between 2009 and 2014. It's increased every year since 2014. Is he making money? I doubt that very much, not with a $400 mms. payroll, not including a $111 tax bill. Their revenue was $153 million in 2021, but with a $384 mms. payroll last year, it's highly unlikely that they made money. And we only care as it a comparative to the Giants' ownership. The Giants' payroll in 2021 was $191 million. BTW, the Mets lost in the wild card in 2022, like the Giants did in 2021. Same result, Giants paid less than half. I'm not really in favor of spending stupidly.
BTW, the SF Giants are valued at $3.5 billion, the Mets about $1 billion less, despite having a much larger metropolitan population from which to draw.
I don't care about Lacob. He struck gold with Curry, Thompson and Green, when his payroll wasn't of immense proportions. It paid off last year with the championship. The value of the franchise skyrocketed with four championships in eight years, something no other team came close to doing i nthat time period. They are sucking wind right now. Don't care about that either.
I care about signing and developing stars in a realistic fashion. Which I think Farhan does.
Mick, let me put this as bluntly as possible - I don’t care about whether the owners make money. The organization screwed this up beyond recognition. Take a gander at what the national writers are saying. This goes beyond Correa. It signifies incompetence. You don’t schedule a presser to show off your new toy and then cancel it. According to Boras, Correas family was in SF to attend. Maybe he’s lying. But he’s out front making all sorts of comments. While Zaidi and Co hide.
As for “…signing and developing stars in a realistic fashion. Which I think Farhan does”, give me names please. Cause the Giants currently don’t have any “stars”.
Slusser was just on KNBR (might still be). Her main point is that the Giant's CAN'T say anything right now. First there's HIPAA regarding the medical. Second, Correa is still a free agent, so the Giant's can't comment because of the bargaining rules. Boras, as his agent, can say anything he wants and knows the Giants can't contradict him. When Correa gets signed by the Mets, then the Giants can at least talk about some of what transpired. Her words, not mine.
Obviously they can’t say what the medical issue is. But I can’t believe they have to sit there and get their reputation run through the mud. At the very least - “We are sorry but due to the CBA we cannot comment at this time. We will, however, have a complete statement once Mr Correa is dumped by the Mets due to the horrific medical condition we uncovered…..”
(12-22-2022, 03:31 PM)Phogge Wrote: 78 is ok. But you can’t cry either way. I want the surf and turf... a hamburger steak and two dozen oysters. Plus about seven San Miguel’s.
There is no crying in baseball. Now, soccer, after watching some of the WC, I conclude crying is required.
I’ll take the NY Steak. A dozen Oysters and 3 martinis…. An Uber will be required.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Phogge - 12-22-2022
No Uber. I’ll drive and make sure that I hit the eject button so you can take a dive into Lake Merced.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 12-23-2022
Giants sign Michael Conforto, two years, $36 million. Conforto had declined an $18.4 million qualifying offer from the Mets.
The Giants declined Correa because of his formerly fractured ankle, apparently. Conforto missed the entire 2022 season from shoulder surgery. Conforto hit 27, 28 and 33 HRs in the years prior to COVID. In 2020, his line was .322/.412/.515/.927. 2021, with a strained hamstring and a hurting shoulder, he declined to .232/.344/.384/.728.
He'll be 30 this season, former 10th overall pick from Oregon State. Bats left, throws right. Big question mark.
Michael Conforto free agent profile (mlb.com)
Giants held a private meeting about Correa. Interesting.
Sources: Giants hold team meeting after Carlos Correa agreement falls apart - NBC Sports Bay Area
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 12-23-2022
(12-23-2022, 08:07 AM)Mick Wrote: Giants sign Michael Conforto, two years, $36 million. Conforto had declined an $18.4 million qualifying offer from the Mets.
The Giants declined Correa because of his formerly fractured ankle, apparently. Conforto missed the entire 2022 season from shoulder surgery. Conforto hit 27, 28 and 33 HRs in the years prior to COVID. In 2020, his line was .322/.412/.515/.927. 2021, with a strained hamstring and a hurting shoulder, he declined to .232/.344/.384/.728.
He'll be 30 this season, former 10th overall pick from Oregon State. Bats left, throws right. of immense proportions question mark.
Michael Conforto free agent profile (mlb.com)
Giants held a private meeting about Correa. Interesting.
Sources: Giants hold team meeting after Carlos Correa agreement falls apart - NBC Sports Bay Area
Conforto has a second year opt out. Giants also signed Taylor Rodgers. Two nice pick ups. Would have been a terrific winter. Giants made all the value moves. But not the big one. Get used to it. This is who they are. This is what they are comfortable doing.
Conforto can right himself and leave. SF now a place for damaged goods to sign, rehabilitate and then make their money elsewhere. One and done. Moneyball West.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - OutsiderFan - 12-23-2022
(12-23-2022, 08:47 AM)lex24 Wrote: SF now a place for damaged goods to sign, rehabilitate and then make their money elsewhere. One and done. Moneyball West.
I may have to reconsider my Giants fandom. This approach is not something I want to support in any way.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 12-23-2022
(12-23-2022, 08:52 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(12-23-2022, 08:47 AM)lex24 Wrote: SF now a place for damaged goods to sign, rehabilitate and then make their money elsewhere. One and done. Moneyball West.
I may have to reconsider my Giants fandom. This approach is not something I want to support in any way.
I'm a fan for the Giants in the same way that I'm a fan of Stanford sports: irregardless of the smart or stupid moves that the adminstrations make, both starting in the early 1970s.
I like the idea of the Conforto signing. Taylor Rogers, I'm not so sure. He was an All-Star in 2021, but last season he started giving up gopher balls. Still, he struck out 84 in 64.1 innings and he absolutely destroys left-handed hitters. He did great April through June, had a good August.
BTW, the Mets weren't the first team that Boras approached after the Giants questioned Correa's health. Boras contacted the Twins first, who said "yeah, we'd like to know more about this medical issue," at which point Boras went to the Mets.
Twins paused their Carlos Correa pursuit after deal with Giants evaporated - The Athletic
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Giants - 12-23-2022
Well, that was a rather disappointing turn of events.
Not much else to say…..
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Mick - 12-23-2022
(12-23-2022, 09:49 AM)Mick Wrote:(12-23-2022, 08:52 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(12-23-2022, 08:47 AM)lex24 Wrote: SF now a place for damaged goods to sign, rehabilitate and then make their money elsewhere. One and done. Moneyball West.
I may have to reconsider my Giants fandom. This approach is not something I want to support in any way.
I'm a fan for the Giants in the same way that I'm a fan of Stanford sports: irregardless of the smart or stupid moves that the adminstrations make, both starting in the early 1970s.
I like the idea of the Conforto signing. Taylor Rogers, I'm not so sure. He was an All-Star in 2021, but last season he started giving up gopher balls. Still, he struck out 84 in 64.1 innings and he absolutely destroys left-handed hitters. He did great April through June, had a good August.
BTW, the Mets weren't the first team that Boras approached after the Giants questioned Correa's health. Boras contacted the Twins first, who said "yeah, we'd like to know more about this medical issue," at which point Boras went to the Mets.
Twins paused their Carlos Correa pursuit after deal with Giants evaporated - The Athletic
Rogers also pitched great at Oracle, a 0.00 ERA.
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - Phogge - 12-23-2022
(12-23-2022, 08:52 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(12-23-2022, 08:47 AM)lex24 Wrote: SF now a place for damaged goods to sign, rehabilitate and then make their money elsewhere. One and done. Moneyball West.
I may have to reconsider my Giants fandom. This approach is not something I want to support in any way.
BYE!
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - lex24 - 12-23-2022
(12-23-2022, 11:51 AM)Mick Wrote:(12-23-2022, 09:49 AM)Mick Wrote:(12-23-2022, 08:52 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(12-23-2022, 08:47 AM)lex24 Wrote: SF now a place for damaged goods to sign, rehabilitate and then make their money elsewhere. One and done. Moneyball West.
I may have to reconsider my Giants fandom. This approach is not something I want to support in any way.
I'm a fan for the Giants in the same way that I'm a fan of Stanford sports: irregardless of the smart or stupid moves that the adminstrations make, both starting in the early 1970s.
I like the idea of the Conforto signing. Taylor Rogers, I'm not so sure. He was an All-Star in 2021, but last season he started giving up gopher balls. Still, he struck out 84 in 64.1 innings and he absolutely destroys left-handed hitters. He did great April through June, had a good August.
BTW, the Mets weren't the first team that Boras approached after the Giants questioned Correa's health. Boras contacted the Twins first, who said "yeah, we'd like to know more about this medical issue," at which point Boras went to the Mets.
Twins paused their Carlos Correa pursuit after deal with Giants evaporated - The Athletic
Rogers also pitched great at Oracle, a 0.00 ERA.
Mick, you do love those SSS. :).
Agree he’s a nice pickup.
Last Correa comment/whine. (Well, except for replies….) All reports I’ve read indicate they used it to try to renegotiate. They are not stupid. They had to know that the second they opened that door, Cohen would step in. Plus Correa would, justifiably, not have a whole lot of warm and fuzzies for the organization. They had no chance. The second I saw that they canceled the presser I knew he was gone. It was obvious.
Cynically it looks like they cut the deal, then after they slept on it for a few days, reconsidered. And used the ‘14 injury as a way out. Which brings me back to risk aversion….
RE: OT: Giants 2023 thread - BostonCard - 12-24-2022
Padres related… classy move by Wil Meyers upon leaving to Cincinnati.
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