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A European super league? (Soccer) - BostonCard - 04-18-2021

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/18/sports/soccer/super-league-united-liverpool-juventus-madrid.html

It’s not as off topic as you think, as there have been rumblings of the P5 in football doing something similar (but this would be more like Alabama, Clemson, tOSU, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, LSU, Florida, Florida State, Texas, USC, and Oregon and a few others) banding together to form a college football super-conference.

BC

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - OutsiderFan - 04-18-2021

This is so terrible.

Even as a casual observer, I've deduced the same teams always win the the Spanish, French, German, and Italian leagues. If you consider this is because there isn't enough parity to create competition, the better core of action is to put a salary cap on the teams and do more revenue sharing.
It's not to conclude the top teams are so dominant in their leagues that they need to compete against the best in other leagues. 

The NFL has become the most successful sports league in the world precisely because it has implemented a hard salary cap and shares revenue amongst all its franchises.  

The top teams in the Premier League, La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1 might be thinking they can kill UEFA, but you would think the other teams in those leagues that might otherwise get UEFA berths and have that opportunity stripped away - if UEFA goes out of business due to the top club teams doing their own thing - might not want to play with them.

How would 6 breakaway EPL teams like it if the other 14 said they didn't want to play them? They could potentially kill the Premiere League as it is known and tell those teams to play teams from other countries. Not saying it is likely, but this maneuver to form a super league will have a lot of unintended consequences because its effectively declaring war.

As for this kind of thing happening in College Football, it's inevitable in some form.

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - dabigv13 - 04-18-2021

It's infuriating. If the domestic leagues told the rebels to pound sand, they would win, but will they hold the line is the question. The big teams would take a fat stack of cash, but without the weekend sell outs from the domestic league, it is not a sustainable thing, and their fans would miss the domestic derbies enough that it would piss them off and they rightfully see it as a pander to the foreign TV audiences.

Unfortunately, the Italian and Spanish FA's are thoroughly corrupted enough by big team influence that I can see them acquiescence.

What's interesting is PSG and Bayern did not sign on to this, and if this was firmed up you have to believe they would. So maybe Agnelli et al are trying to bluff their way through this and it will collapse, I certainly hope so.

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - ColoradoTree - 04-19-2021

What's so interesting about this to me is that fan reaction has been almost uniformly negative. Fans feel betrayed that these teams would light soccer as we know it on fire just to tilt overall soccer revenue more in their favor. Nobody likes this, not even fans of the teams involved. 

Club soccer is already top-heavy in these leagues. They already make the most money, dominate year in and year out, and are worldwide brands. And it's not enough for them. 

It's just such a betrayal, and for what? For clubs that are already filthy rich to get incrementally richer, while consigning hundreds of other clubs to a bleaker financial future. 

It's almost hard to imagine it actually happening. Certainly the costs could be too much to bear, if UEFA and FIFA hold firm and follow through on their threat to keep the teams from participating in domestic leagues and the players from playing internationally. But this is a power play from teams who want a bigger share of the pie. Seems like the best case scenario right now is that UEFA sweetens the pot for teams who advance to the knockout stages in the Champions League, and these teams get a bigger share of the pie, but within the current system. 

Kudos to the German clubs for not signing on, though as they're primarily community-owned, they'd need membership approval. If fan reaction of the involved clubs is any indication, that's something no club would ever get.

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - BostonCard - 04-19-2021

(04-18-2021, 06:06 PM)dabigv13 Wrote:  What's interesting is PSG and Bayern did not sign on to this, and if this was firmed up you have to believe they would. So maybe Agnelli et al are trying to bluff their way through this and it will collapse, I certainly hope so.

With regards to PSG, it may have to do with this:

Quote:Their concerns can be political and financial. P.S.G.’s president, Nasser al-Khelaifi, sits on the UEFA board, for example, and also heads beIN Media Group, the Qatar-based television network that has paid millions of dollars for the broadcast rights to games in the Champions League and various domestic competitions.

I'm not sure what Bayern and Dortmund's rationale; maybe ColoradoTree's reason.

This article (https://www.wsj.com/articles/european-soccer-super-league-fifa-uefa-11618834570?mod=hp_lead_pos7, possibly paywalled), describes the legal underpinnings that may allow the SuperLeague to proceed.  Basically, there is precedence for a similar league in basketball.

BC

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - dabigv13 - 04-19-2021

Boris Johnson, Macron, Italy PM Draghi all coming out against this super league as well.

The clubs may have opened up a box they didn't anticipate.

Also will be interesting if Barcelona and Madrid fan/shareholders vote to back this as well, as would be required.

This is obviously about money, but what is important to realize is that the super league teams are almost all hundreds of millions of dollars in debt. Inter, the likely Serie A champion this year, may not even be able to pay salaries. So these clubs are making this Hail Mary bet under intense duress. And that's a big reason I think it will collapse, and why should UEFA renegotiate anything, as it becomes clear the renegade clubs are holding a much weaker hand than they thought.

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - OutsiderFan - 04-19-2021

(04-19-2021, 12:37 PM)dabigv13 Wrote:  Boris Johnson, Macron, Italy PM Draghi all coming out against this super league as well.

The clubs may have opened up a box they didn't anticipate.

Also will be interesting if Barcelona and Madrid fan/shareholders vote to back this as well, as would be required.

This is obviously about money, but what is important to realize is that the super league teams are almost all hundreds of millions of dollars in debt. Inter, the likely Serie A champion this year, may not even be able to pay salaries. So these clubs are making this Hail Mary bet under intense duress. And that's a big reason I think it will collapse, and why should UEFA renegotiate anything, as it becomes clear the renegade clubs are holding a much weaker hand than they thought.

Wow, hadn't been aware these clubs have gone into debt and the Super League is a Hail Mary to get out of it.  It proves how the leagues need salary caps and the revenue sharing that comes with it to save the owners from themselves.  And, it has been proven time and time again that rising tides lift all boats.

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - Phogge - 04-19-2021

The machinations in sport are boring. Especially the way that Manfred and his fellow idiots are changing baseball. If they would go back to the strike zone that I grew up with there would be less homers and walks and hitters would have to adjust and not swing up in today's home run or else culture.

I can enjoy a rec league ballgame at Big Rec as much as I can enjoy a WS game. Of course I'm in a minuscule minority.

As for a P5 super conference don't let them play out of league. Only fellow super conference teams. Let's see Alabama go undefeated under those conditions.

Everybody else plays in an FCS world with extensive playoffs after a conference (geographically constituted) schedule with no intersectionals. Maximum 10 games until the playoffs.

ESPN would never allow it because the Committee is in their pocket like so many politicians were in the Don's pocket.

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - BostonCard - 04-19-2021

Some of the clubs have been purchased by hedge funds looking to maximize profits.  For example, AC Milan is owned by Elliott Management. Manchester United is owned by the Glazer family, who acquired it in a leveraged buyout.  A number of other clubs are owned by foreigners (Chelsea by Russian Oligarch Roman Abramovich, Inter Milan by Chinese mogul Zhang Jindong, Manchester City by Emirati royal Sheikh Mansour bin Zayed Al Nahyan, etc.)

BC

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - BostonCard - 04-19-2021

A bit more from this article in the Economist:

https://www.economist.com/business/2021/04/19/europes-top-football-clubs-plan-a-super-league-of-their-own

I do think this point is probably the biggest:

Quote:The most likely outcome may be some sort of compromise. That was the result in 1998, the last time the idea of an elite European competition was raised, after which UEFA responded by enlarging the Champions League. That would be no bad thing. “What the football authorities need to face up to is that there is something here that is desirable: to see the big clubs with the big stars play each other more often,” says Mr Szymanski. If they don’t provide it, someone will.

Especially outside of the UK, where the national soccer leagues are dominated by the same one (PSG in France) two (Bayern Munich and Dortmund in Germany) or three (Real Madrid, Barcelona, and, maybe Atletico Madrid in Spain) teams, I could see the desire to want to play in a more competitive league.  But I think this solution amounts to cream-skimming and it rightfully elicits a backlash.

BC

PS, I don't think that a salary cap, revenue sharing, and a draft that favors poor teams is the answer.  Like, there is no way in hell that a European team will tank to get a better draft pick (because, for one, there is no draft), since there revenues depend on being at least competitive and not being relegated.  And I think that's what I find most objectionable in the proposal; the no-relegation clause.

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - dabigv13 - 04-19-2021

The games between big teams are desirable because they aren't too common, and they mean something because they are for an established competition that has existed since the 60s. The Super League has no history, and by making Juve-Barca, Liverpool-Madrid, etc a regular thing, it dilutes the meaning of it. They are killing the goose that lays the golden egg. But again they need the money because they are deeply in debt. This is their own fault for spending hundreds of millions of dollars of player salaries. But the rebel clubs justify it as "saving the game". 

Really disgusting stuff. Unchecked capitalism and private equity killing the game.

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - OutsiderFan - 04-19-2021

(04-19-2021, 05:15 PM)dabigv13 Wrote:  Really disgusting stuff. Unchecked capitalism and private equity killing the game.

As it does with everything it ever touches.

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - BostonCard - 04-20-2021

[tweet]https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1384531228179767297?s=20[/tweet]

I think "misread the room" is probably right.

BC

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - Treefence - 04-20-2021

The league seems already be on the verge of collapsing as multiple teams are working to pull out.  What a weird footnote in history this will be...

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - BostonCard - 04-20-2021

ESPN has an article titled "What could a college football Super League look like?"

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/31292167/what-college-football-super-league-look-like

BC
(04-20-2021, 11:44 AM)Treefence Wrote:  The league seems already be on the verge of collapsing as multiple teams are working to pull out.  What a weird footnote in history this will be...

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BBCSport/status/1384572947839467523?s=20[/tweet]

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - ColoradoTree - 04-20-2021

And Manchester United's chairman is now out. Emergency meeting of all 12 teams to discuss walking it all back. What a glorious mess.

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - dabigv13 - 04-20-2021

And now the fun part of the failed coup, the conspirators going up against the wall!

I hope Agnelli and Perez get their just deserts.

When they came out with their midnight statement and no PSG or Bayern, you could tell this was a half baked plan.

More on the debt driving this all-

[Image: Eza3fWiXMAAx95K?format=jpg&name=medium]

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - OutsiderFan - 04-20-2021

What a cluster. 

Nothing like telling your partner you are leaving for something "better" and then having to slink your way back to them after the better option falls through. I've never been dumb enough to do this, but have seen others do it. They never have the same game after.

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - BostonCard - 04-20-2021

Hopefully no one thinks this is political... Mostly I just thought it was funny.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/SeanDEhrlich/status/1384582794496516097?s=20[/tweet]

Pretty soon a "super-league" will be defined as a unit of time of 3 days, or, roughly 1/3 of a scaramucci.

BC

RE: A European super league? (Soccer) - OutsiderFan - 04-20-2021

The way this is SUPPOSED to work is all these teams up to their eyeballs in debt cut expenses - read player salaries - and suck for a while while they pay off their debts and go younger. That gives clubs that have been financially responsible the possibility to buy players they might not have otherwise been able to afford. Perish the thought that player salaries might actually go down. Going into debt to pay players is a recipe for financial insolvency.

Do any Euro soccer leagues have financial regulations on their member clubs?