Football recruiting - Printable Version
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Football recruiting - OutsiderFan - 09-11-2020
The 2021 class is obviously a tire fire, so the football coaches are putting much more effort into 2022, but I have questions.
In particular, how is the lack of standardized testing in admissions decisions playing out? I'm operating on the assumption these tests aren't being used in admission decisions because the testing facilities to give the tests have not been open. It would seem Stanford would benefit from not considering ACT/SAT scores in admissions decision for football players, but I don't know. Does anyone here have insight?
Have these tests been withheld from decisions in 2021 class? Will they be used for the 2022 class? And given all the talk of white privilege and how standardized tests disadvantage people of color, will the ACT/SAT even continue being used in admission decisions beyond these few years they can't be because testing facilities aren't open?
It's quite a shock seeing how terrible the 2021 class is going to be when to my knowledge ACT/SAT scores aren't being used in admission decisions.
RE: Football recruiting - SamuelMcF - 09-11-2020
The "ACT/SAT not being used" announcement from Stanford came months later than the announcements from our usual recruiting competition. Major disadvantage in 2021 and many recruits dropped from our board due to the uncertainty (they committed elsewhere and stuck). Oh, and the whole "going 4-8 with a dozen players in the transfer portal" thing.
I'm not sure about 2022 but I believe standardized testing cancellation/removal from consideration is a factor in the larger number of offers.
RE: Football recruiting - OutsiderFan - 09-11-2020
(09-11-2020, 11:47 AM)SamuelMcF Wrote: The "ACT/SAT not being used" announcement from Stanford came months later than the announcements from our usual recruiting competition. Major disadvantage in 2021 and many recruits dropped from our board due to the uncertainty (they committed elsewhere and stuck). Oh, and the whole "going 4-8 with a dozen players in the transfer portal" thing.
I'm not sure about 2022 but I believe standardized testing cancellation/removal from consideration is a factor in the larger number of offers.
This is quite an impressive own goal by Stanford.
I hope David Shaw was hopping mad and let someone know how dearly this dawdling cost Stanford. I mean, I've been on record saying how no sport is less forgiving of complacency and lack of urgency than College Football. Shaw has his own documented issues with being slow to react, but if a poor recruiting class leads to a downturn in on-field performance, that bad class can beget another bad class, and now you have a team that isn't competitive and doesn't draw interest which costs money a program cutting sports can't afford to lose.
Just once, it would be nice to see Stanford Football be proactive and take advantage of something. All working against Stanford Football:
- Only school that requires application and AP classes (not saying this one is bad; helps find your kind of guys)
- Required higher ACT/SAT than anyone and didn't drop the requirement until recruiting rivals did for 2021 recruits
- Basically can lose grad transfers but can't take them in
- No regular transfers
- No early official visits for recruits
It's like not being happy going into the ring unless one hand is tied behind your back, and then asking for a blindfold once in it.
RE: Football recruiting - Papa John - 09-11-2020
(09-11-2020, 11:39 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I'm operating on the assumption these tests aren't being used in admission decisions because the testing facilities to give the tests have not been open.
As best as I can tell, the SAT and ACT are still being offered:
https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/sat/register/dates-deadlines
http://www.act.org/content/act/en/products-and-services/the-act/registration.html
Maybe you were thinking of this ruling that applied to the UC system?
https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/09/02/judge-ruling-eliminates-sat-act-standardized-tests-from-uc-admissions-process/
RE: Football recruiting - BobK - 09-11-2020
https://www.stanforddaily.com/2018/07/07/stanford-to-stop-requiring-act-sat-essay-scores/
Check out the date
RE: Football recruiting - SamuelMcF - 09-11-2020
(09-11-2020, 01:47 PM)BobK Wrote: https://www.stanforddaily.com/2018/07/07/stanford-to-stop-requiring-act-sat-essay-scores/
Check out the date
This is "essay scores" (i.e. the writing portion). Not the whole thing.
RE: Football recruiting - Farm93 - 09-11-2020
(09-11-2020, 01:05 PM)Papa John Wrote:I have a HS Class of 2021 child, so I can assure you it is not as easy as you apparently believe.(09-11-2020, 11:39 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I'm operating on the assumption these tests aren't being used in admission decisions because the testing facilities to give the tests have not been open.
As best as I can tell, the SAT and ACT are still being offered:
https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/sat/register/dates-deadlines
http://www.act.org/content/act/en/products-and-services/the-act/registration.html
Maybe you were thinking of this ruling that applied to the UC system?
https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/09/02/judge-ruling-eliminates-sat-act-standardized-tests-from-uc-admissions-process/
A review of the last 4-5 months.
May SAT - He was signed up for that - SAT was cancelled for everyone across the USA
August SAT - He was signed up for that too - Sessions were cancelled at most CA sites and most school districts around the USA with closed schools.
September SAT - More or less in CA you need to be in a Red Zone or better now since schools in Purple zone schools are not going to have 14 days in the Red Zone prior to the upcoming date. There will be many cancellations across the USA as a number of schools fail to open or remain open.
October SAT - He is signed up for that now too. And we need to hope our area stays in the Red Zone long enough to take one. Same idea, cancellations are likely pending local COVID status
For the August, September, October and November registrations there are other complications. The registrations assumed seat availability at each school that might not prove to be available. The CollegeBoard simply was not set up for this, so you more or less need to go to the website from time to time to confirm your site is still open and that you (your child) is still registered.
The ACT tests have been far harder.
He registered for July at a site 100 miles from our home in SoCal as every other venue was full, but ultimately that was cancelled.
Remember each site is likely using a fraction of their historic capacity, so supply is severely constricted.
Watching test options dwindle we were ready when the ACT opened up registration for Fall 2020 dates and sites.
However, their site crashed, and stayed down for several days
When they re-opened you had to wait for your system access window.
When access was provided all of the September sites across all of California and AZ were full on the first day the site reopened.
He got registered for a site 80 miles from our home for the October ACT test date, but the location is in a county that is still purple. If it stays purple that site will likely cancel, but even if it opens we are worried they will reduce the registration levels.
At this point it looks unlikely he will get access to any ACT test.
Again, you need to check on your own because the ACT system also does not really have the infrastructure to deal with all of these COVID related changes and potential last minute site closures.
Admittedly that is a single example, but illustrates why most schools are not using test scores this year even if the use of test scores are required for admission decisions in the public colleges and universities in the state. (Colorado is one of those states).
This does not even begin to capture the challenges of virtual learning, grades in the virtual world, the possible challenges of taking AP tests at the end of the year, etc. For HS athletes you also may be in a place where your sport is cancelled for the year, so that's in there too.
Let's bring this back to recruiting and Stanford admissions.
Historically the recruits generally understood if they got to a certain SAT level then they would probably be OK.
What metric is a good benchmark now? Now the admissions processes will place greater weight on metrics (like school quality) not really known by the students.
By now you hopefully can appreciate the appeal for members of the Class of 2021 of any process that includes an instantaneous admissions offer from the football coach.
RE: Football recruiting - Phogge - 09-11-2020
Sorry for your son. Timing is everything.
I believe what it means for Stanford football is a long rebuilding program. Few if any games for well over a year. Loss of personnel. Uncertain spring practice. Many schools playing this fall with no eligibility loss giving experience to all hands on deck.
If they play in Fall 2021 lots of new faces and the weakest recruiting class in memory. Shaw's win % falls dramatically. Better to fill out the non conference with cupcakes. Forget about going to South Bend. Keep offering, rescind offers when it is practical, have spring visits, get off the high horse and do early admits. Or else just prepare to lose, often. Perhaps Shaw will not have the energy and drive to go through a dry spell. Hire somebody like LaFleur the passing game coach of the Niners. Young and hungry.
RE: Football recruiting - BostonCard - 09-11-2020
(09-11-2020, 12:36 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(09-11-2020, 11:47 AM)SamuelMcF Wrote: The "ACT/SAT not being used" announcement from Stanford came months later than the announcements from our usual recruiting competition. Major disadvantage in 2021 and many recruits dropped from our board due to the uncertainty (they committed elsewhere and stuck). Oh, and the whole "going 4-8 with a dozen players in the transfer portal" thing.
I'm not sure about 2022 but I believe standardized testing cancellation/removal from consideration is a factor in the larger number of offers.
This is quite an impressive own goal by Stanford.
I hope David Shaw was hopping mad and let someone know how dearly this dawdling cost Stanford. I mean, I've been on record saying how no sport is less forgiving of complacency and lack of urgency than College Football. Shaw has his own documented issues with being slow to react, but if a poor recruiting class leads to a downturn in on-field performance, that bad class can beget another bad class, and now you have a team that isn't competitive and doesn't draw interest which costs money a program cutting sports can't afford to lose.
Just once, it would be nice to see Stanford Football be proactive and take advantage of something. All working against Stanford Football:
- Only school that requires application and AP classes (not saying this one is bad; helps find your kind of guys)
- Required higher ACT/SAT than anyone and didn't drop the requirement until recruiting rivals did for 2021 recruits
- Basically can lose grad transfers but can't take them in
- No regular transfers
- No early official visits for recruits
It's like not being happy going into the ring unless one hand is tied behind your back, and then asking for a blindfold once in it.
You think that the impact on the football team is an iota of a consideration for this decision? You think Shaw getting "hopping mad" would make an iota of a difference on the administration? Listen, it sucks for us, but I don't think I would want the football team to be the tail wagging the dog here.
BC
RE: Football recruiting - Papa John - 09-11-2020
Thanks for the clarification, Farm93. I stand corrected.
RE: Football recruiting - chrisk - 09-11-2020
(09-11-2020, 12:36 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(09-11-2020, 11:47 AM)SamuelMcF Wrote: The "ACT/SAT not being used" announcement from Stanford came months later than the announcements from our usual recruiting competition. Major disadvantage in 2021 and many recruits dropped from our board due to the uncertainty (they committed elsewhere and stuck). Oh, and the whole "going 4-8 with a dozen players in the transfer portal" thing.
I'm not sure about 2022 but I believe standardized testing cancellation/removal from consideration is a factor in the larger number of offers.
This is quite an impressive own goal by Stanford.
I hope David Shaw was hopping mad and let someone know how dearly this dawdling cost Stanford. I mean, I've been on record saying how no sport is less forgiving of complacency and lack of urgency than College Football. Shaw has his own documented issues with being slow to react, but if a poor recruiting class leads to a downturn in on-field performance, that bad class can beget another bad class, and now you have a team that isn't competitive and doesn't draw interest which costs money a program cutting sports can't afford to lose.
Just once, it would be nice to see Stanford Football be proactive and take advantage of something. All working against Stanford Football:
- Only school that requires application and AP classes (not saying this one is bad; helps find your kind of guys)
- Required higher ACT/SAT than anyone and didn't drop the requirement until recruiting rivals did for 2021 recruits
- Basically can lose grad transfers but can't take them in
- No regular transfers
- No early official visits for recruits
It's like not being happy going into the ring unless one hand is tied behind your back, and then asking for a blindfold once in it.
Where is it stated that any applicant to Stanford, let alone athletes, is required to take AP courses? It may well be that most applicants submit AP grades to embellish their applicants and it is a good way for athletes to demonstrate their interest in academics.
RE: Football recruiting - BostonCard - 09-11-2020
On the one hand, Stanford states:
Quote:There is no minimum GPA or test score; nor is there any specific number of AP or honors courses you must have on your transcript in order to be admitted to Stanford.
But earlier they state:
Quote:The primary criterion for admission to Stanford is academic excellence. We look for your preparation and potential to succeed. We expect you to challenge yourself throughout high school and to do very well. The most important credential for evaluating your academic record is your high school transcript. Please know that our evaluation goes beyond any numerical formula.
So, no minimum, but if you could have taken AP classes (or equivalent) and didn't, Stanford is unlikely to accept you.
BC
RE: Football recruiting - SamuelMcF - 09-11-2020
Pretty well-known for football that you need to take 2 AP classes and get at least a B in both.
RE: Football recruiting - PVTree - 09-11-2020
Back in my HS days, early 80s, my high school offered only 1 AP class, and I took it.
I imagine Stanford looks for its applicants to take as many AP classes as they can in their HS (not take an "easy" class instead of a harder one).
So, if your HS offers 3 AP classes, you better take them. If it offers 10, but you can only fit 6 of them in your schedule because of overlapping times, you better take 6 of them.
In my case, I either took AP history or typing, I opted for AP history. As a side note, up to today, I don't know how to type. I'm a two-fingered typer.
RE: Football recruiting - Mick - 09-11-2020
The UC system used to claim that it only "counted" four AP classes in calculating soph and junior year gpas, two classes in each year.
But if you reviewed their data warehouse (it closed down about 10 years ago), it had acceptance rates based upon the actual number of AP semesters that a student took. And somehow, acceptance rates skyrocketed if a student took more than eight semesters, and was a virtual lock if it was in the 16-20 semester range.
When I got to college, people were talking about "AP" classes. I'd never heard of them. My high school didn't have either AP or honors classes. Had no idea there was such a thing. And my dad wouldn't allow me to take classes at the local CC.
RE: Football recruiting - 81alum - 09-12-2020
It has been a long time since I had a bit role in Stanford admissions, but I have followed the national trends recently. Many elite universities over the last 5 years have been cautioning high school students not to take too MANY AP classes. A few have placed limits on the number they will consider in admissions and/or the number that they will allow to count as units or to satisfy requirements. I am not sure where Stanford stands at the moment.
Nationally, there is growing awareness that elite-bound high school students have been working themselves sick--particularly in terms of mental health--and that universities need to find a way of choosing admits that does not stoke the arms race. Locally, many Stanford faculty are scared to death for their own high school students. The Stanford ghetto is served by Gunn High School, where there have been two suicide clusters in recent years. There have been agonizing, soul-searching meetings where parents speculate about the role that academic pressures and stress have played in the epidemic of high school depression--with suicide being merely the tip of the iceberg.
Now add to all of this the pandemic shutting down normal social life, the fact that young people are far more cognizant of and frightened of global warming than their parents, the perception among youth that our political system is utterly broken and incapable of solving significant problems, the fact that it has never been harder for kids to earn extra money to help with college expenses--and you get a truly horrific climate for many of our applicants.
I hope very much that all of us take seriously Mikaela Brewer's missive to the world. Our admissions system, along with the entire Stanford community, needs to exhibit a level of kindness, empathy, and understanding well beyond what we are used to.
RE: Football recruiting - Mick - 09-12-2020
(09-12-2020, 07:39 AM)81alum Wrote: It has been a long time since I had a bit role in Stanford admissions, but I have followed the national trends recently. Many elite universities over the last 5 years have been cautioning high school students not to take too MANY AP classes. A few have placed limits on the number they will consider in admissions and/or the number that they will allow to count as units or to satisfy requirements. I am not sure where Stanford stands at the moment.
Nationally, there is growing awareness that elite-bound high school students have been working themselves sick--particularly in terms of mental health--and that universities need to find a way of choosing admits that does not stoke the arms race. Locally, many Stanford faculty are scared to death for their own high school students. The Stanford ghetto is served by Gunn High School, where there have been two suicide clusters in recent years. There have been agonizing, soul-searching meetings where parents speculate about the role that academic pressures and stress have played in the epidemic of high school depression--with suicide being merely the tip of the iceberg.
Now add to all of this the pandemic shutting down normal social life, the fact that young people are far more cognizant of and frightened of global warming than their parents, the perception among youth that our political system is utterly broken and incapable of solving significant problems, the fact that it has never been harder for kids to earn extra money to help with college expenses--and you get a truly horrific climate for many of our applicants.
I hope very much that all of us take seriously Mikaela Brewer's missive to the world. Our admissions system, along with the entire Stanford community, needs to exhibit a level of kindness, empathy, and understanding well beyond what we are used to.
I wonder how that will take hold. To your point, my youngest son had a friend in high school who received his first "B+" his spring semester, junior year, after straight A's in a full load. Unfortunately, he had a 102 degree fever and was sick in bed when his report card arrived. His parents started berating him at 7 p.m. and did not stop until 10:30 p.m.
Yes you're right, helicopter parents and pressure can cause significant damage. I wonder if it's worse than the parents who mail it in, the parents who don't generally give a darn?
RE: Football recruiting - TinderForMidgets - 09-12-2020
(09-12-2020, 07:39 AM)81alum Wrote: It has been a long time since I had a bit role in Stanford admissions, but I have followed the national trends recently. Many elite universities over the last 5 years have been cautioning high school students not to take too MANY AP classes. A few have placed limits on the number they will consider in admissions and/or the number that they will allow to count as units or to satisfy requirements. I am not sure where Stanford stands at the moment.
Nationally, there is growing awareness that elite-bound high school students have been working themselves sick--particularly in terms of mental health--and that universities need to find a way of choosing admits that does not stoke the arms race. Locally, many Stanford faculty are scared to death for their own high school students. The Stanford ghetto is served by Gunn High School, where there have been two suicide clusters in recent years. There have been agonizing, soul-searching meetings where parents speculate about the role that academic pressures and stress have played in the epidemic of high school depression--with suicide being merely the tip of the iceberg.
Now add to all of this the pandemic shutting down normal social life, the fact that young people are far more cognizant of and frightened of global warming than their parents, the perception among youth that our political system is utterly broken and incapable of solving significant problems, the fact that it has never been harder for kids to earn extra money to help with college expenses--and you get a truly horrific climate for many of our applicants.
I hope very much that all of us take seriously Mikaela Brewer's missive to the world. Our admissions system, along with the entire Stanford community, needs to exhibit a level of kindness, empathy, and understanding well beyond what we are used to.
Too many Stanford kids come from a culture of competition instead actual love of learning. It's hurting us - we're not able to recognize the truly talent and we often get the over-worked and over-ambitious. We often get too much noise.
RE: Football recruiting - Brickcity - 09-12-2020
(09-12-2020, 04:05 PM)Mick Wrote:(09-12-2020, 07:39 AM)81alum Wrote: It has been a long time since I had a bit role in Stanford admissions, but I have followed the national trends recently. Many elite universities over the last 5 years have been cautioning high school students not to take too MANY AP classes. A few have placed limits on the number they will consider in admissions and/or the number that they will allow to count as units or to satisfy requirements. I am not sure where Stanford stands at the moment.
Nationally, there is growing awareness that elite-bound high school students have been working themselves sick--particularly in terms of mental health--and that universities need to find a way of choosing admits that does not stoke the arms race. Locally, many Stanford faculty are scared to death for their own high school students. The Stanford ghetto is served by Gunn High School, where there have been two suicide clusters in recent years. There have been agonizing, soul-searching meetings where parents speculate about the role that academic pressures and stress have played in the epidemic of high school depression--with suicide being merely the tip of the iceberg.
Now add to all of this the pandemic shutting down normal social life, the fact that young people are far more cognizant of and frightened of global warming than their parents, the perception among youth that our political system is utterly broken and incapable of solving significant problems, the fact that it has never been harder for kids to earn extra money to help with college expenses--and you get a truly horrific climate for many of our applicants.
I hope very much that all of us take seriously Mikaela Brewer's missive to the world. Our admissions system, along with the entire Stanford community, needs to exhibit a level of kindness, empathy, and understanding well beyond what we are used to.
I wonder how that will take hold. To your point, my youngest son had a friend in high school who received his first "B+" his spring semester, junior year, after straight A's in a full load. Unfortunately, he had a 102 degree fever and was sick in bed when his report card arrived. His parents started berating him at 7 p.m. and did not stop until 10:30 p.m.
Yes you're right, helicopter parents and pressure can cause significant damage. I wonder if it's worse than the parents who mail it in, the parents who don't generally give a darn?
Those parents are sick in the head and should hand in their parenting badges.
RE: Football recruiting - Mick - 09-13-2020
(09-12-2020, 04:56 PM)Brickcity Wrote:(09-12-2020, 04:05 PM)Mick Wrote:(09-12-2020, 07:39 AM)81alum Wrote: It has been a long time since I had a bit role in Stanford admissions, but I have followed the national trends recently. Many elite universities over the last 5 years have been cautioning high school students not to take too MANY AP classes. A few have placed limits on the number they will consider in admissions and/or the number that they will allow to count as units or to satisfy requirements. I am not sure where Stanford stands at the moment.
Nationally, there is growing awareness that elite-bound high school students have been working themselves sick--particularly in terms of mental health--and that universities need to find a way of choosing admits that does not stoke the arms race. Locally, many Stanford faculty are scared to death for their own high school students. The Stanford ghetto is served by Gunn High School, where there have been two suicide clusters in recent years. There have been agonizing, soul-searching meetings where parents speculate about the role that academic pressures and stress have played in the epidemic of high school depression--with suicide being merely the tip of the iceberg.
Now add to all of this the pandemic shutting down normal social life, the fact that young people are far more cognizant of and frightened of global warming than their parents, the perception among youth that our political system is utterly broken and incapable of solving significant problems, the fact that it has never been harder for kids to earn extra money to help with college expenses--and you get a truly horrific climate for many of our applicants.
I hope very much that all of us take seriously Mikaela Brewer's missive to the world. Our admissions system, along with the entire Stanford community, needs to exhibit a level of kindness, empathy, and understanding well beyond what we are used to.
I wonder how that will take hold. To your point, my youngest son had a friend in high school who received his first "B+" his spring semester, junior year, after straight A's in a full load. Unfortunately, he had a 102 degree fever and was sick in bed when his report card arrived. His parents started berating him at 7 p.m. and did not stop until 10:30 p.m.
Yes you're right, helicopter parents and pressure can cause significant damage. I wonder if it's worse than the parents who mail it in, the parents who don't generally give a darn?
Those parents are sick in the head and should hand in their parenting badges.
Keanu Reeves' thoughts on parental qualifications:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFaUX9ZbyRM