Fiesta Bowl all over again - Printable Version

Fiesta Bowl all over again - Printable Version

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Fiesta Bowl all over again - Brickcity - 11-23-2019

David Shaw pulled another "David Shaw." With about two and a half minutes left to go in the game, it's third and four in Cal's territory. We're already in field goal range. However, I think we all knew even if Stanford had to settle for a field goal and made it, Cal would still have plenty of time to come back and score the winning touchdown. Cal had all its time outs and its offense had moved through our "defense" like a sharp knife through butter. So, understanding this dynamic, it was clear to me - and probably many of you - that we HAD to throw the ball in an attempt to get the first down. There was no way we were going to pick up four yards on the ground. If Mills throws incomplete, we'd still have an opportunity to kick the field goal. Moreover, you tell Mills before the snap to get rid of the ball quickly to avoid any chance at a sack.

So, what does Shaw do? He takes the ball out of Mills' hands and runs it up the middle for a gain of two. We know what ensued from there. His thinking was eerily similar to his infamous call at the end of regulation in the Fiasco....er...Fiesta Bowl when, in his infinite wisdom, he took the ball out of Luck's hands and lets his field goal kicker take a shot. One I think we all knew was far short of automatic.

It should also be noted that Shaw and his staff called two time outs in the second half, leaving us with only one on the final drive.

Sure, we came into the game with a lot of injuries and there are a lot of other things that went wrong for Stanford. But, Shawvita's handling of the offense continues to kill us.

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - BostonCard - 11-23-2019

Funny, in the other thread, the criticism was that Shaw had Mills pass on second down, and that with two runs we should have been able to get a first down, and take off another 40 seconds in the process.

In the meantime, Cal has the worst offense in the league and their backup QB sliced through our d like a hot knife through butter.

BC

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - yvonne - 11-23-2019

The only similarities are that the other team came back and we couldn’t go ahead on the final possession. Really lazy “analysis.” I think some “fans” here would rather have two losing seasons coming up just so they can have a four-and-gone coach.

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - Brickcity - 11-23-2019

(11-23-2019, 05:40 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Funny, in the other thread, the criticism was that Shaw had Mills pass on second down, and that with two runs we should have been able to get a first down, and take off another 40 seconds in the process.

In the meantime, Cal has the worst offense in the league and their backup QB sliced through our d like a hot knife through butter.

BC

The other poster, IMHO, made a valid point re second down. But on third and four, you have to throw it if you want to give yourself a reasonable chance at getting the first down.

(11-23-2019, 05:45 PM)yvonne Wrote: The only similarities are that the other team came back and we couldn’t go ahead on the final possession. Really lazy “analysis.” I think some “fans” here would rather have two losing seasons coming up just so they can have a four-and-gone coach.

Personally, I'm not someone who is hoping for two more losing seasons so Shaw can get fired. As many others have pointed out, it would simply be nice if he were to hire himself an experienced offensive coordinator who knew what he was doing. That said, I'm also not someone who believes that a "fan" is someone who necessarily has blind allegiance to the head coach.

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - yvonne - 11-23-2019

OK to hold blind hatred for something that happened seven years ago and has ZERO relationship to what happened today other than the same head coach and the fact that they were losses. You "shawgren/shavita" folks somehow forgot the best years we've had since 1970-71.

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - Brickcity - 11-23-2019

(11-23-2019, 06:26 PM)yvonne Wrote: OK to hold blind hatred for something that happened seven years ago and has ZERO relationship to what happened today other than the same head coach and the fact that they were losses. You "shawgren/shavita" folks somehow forgot the best years we've had since 1970-71.

I think the comparison holds. And, BTW, who said anything about "hate"? However, you're missing the point. If the Fiesta Bowl mistake were one of Shaw's only significant ones in his tenure as head coach, no one would be criticizing his overall handling of the offense. The problem is that he makes obvious mistakes throughout the season, year in and year out. Errors that are self-induced.

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - yvonne - 11-23-2019

Year in and year out, yet somehow, he's only managed one losing season. You should pray that the next coach is equally inept.

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - winflop - 11-23-2019

(11-23-2019, 05:49 PM)Brickcity Wrote: Personally, I'm not someone who is hoping for two more losing seasons so Shaw can get fired. As many others have pointed out, it would simply be nice if he were to hire himself an experienced offensive coordinator who knew what he was doing.

I'm right with you in not hoping for more of what has happened this year. But I'm afraid that's exactly what we will get if Shaw does not make major changes in the coaching staff.

Specifically, Pritchard, Kennedy, and Hansen all need to go. Maybe more. I don't know enough about which members of the S&C staff need to go as well, but there needs to a major housecleaning there as well.

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - yvonne - 11-23-2019

I'm with you for Pritchard, but I don't know enough about the other coaches. I don't think the S&C is up to Shaw. I think it's an entirely different part of DAPER.

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - Brickcity - 11-23-2019

(11-23-2019, 06:42 PM)yvonne Wrote: Year in and year out, yet somehow, he's only managed one losing season. You should pray that the next coach is equally inept.

Shaw has had a nice run. But, we've seen a downward trend beginning in 2016. And, the reasons are pretty apparent. I won't rehash them here because they've been beaten to death. Suffice it to say, the future does not look bright for the program.

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - winflop - 11-23-2019

(11-23-2019, 06:42 PM)yvonne Wrote: Year in and year out, yet somehow, he's only managed one losing season. You should pray that the next coach is equally inept.

You're right, but that won't be the case if major changes aren't made starting next Sunday. This program has been sliding downward since the Iowa Rose Bowl, and the trend will continue if Shaw stays the course.

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - teejers1 - 11-23-2019

(11-23-2019, 06:42 PM)yvonne Wrote: Year in and year out, yet somehow, he's only managed one losing season. You should pray that the next coach is equally inept.

Talk about lazy analysis . . .

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - yvonne - 11-23-2019

Yes, Teejers, I've sat next to you. Not very hard to figure out your analysis from Day One.

Yes, it's extremely lazy to look at a bad season and scream "Oh, it's the coach! It must be the exact reason he lost the last major game." No team has a year like this and can blame a single factor. Here are the multiple causes:

1. Not recruiting to the strength of previous seasons (i.e. line, fullback and running back).
2. Injuries, injuries, injuries, especially on the line.
3. Abysmal defense.
4. Coaching decisions.

No team loses by the scores from UCLA, USC and Oregon merely because of scheme.

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - teejers1 - 11-23-2019

(11-23-2019, 08:29 PM)yvonne Wrote: Yes, Teejers, I've sat next to you. Not very hard to figure out your analysis from Day One.

Yes, it's extremely lazy to look at a bad season and scream "Oh, it's the coach! It must be the exact reason he lost the last major game." No team has a year like this and can blame a single factor. Here are the multiple causes:

1. Not recruiting to the strength of previous seasons (i.e. line, fullback and running back).
2. Injuries, injuries, injuries, especially on the line.
3. Abysmal defense.
4. Coaching decisions.

No team loses by the scores from UCLA, USC and Oregon merely because of scheme.

Yvonne, Shaw has blown so many games with piss poor game management, it's mind-boggling. He does not 'get' the most basic aspects of how to run an offense, yet he insists on calling the plays and running the offense.

How many times has Stanford ever schemed a player open on a pass play in the Shaw Era? You just never see it. Again, mind-boggling.

But far too many fans think 'well, the overall record has been good, so he must be a good coach.' That is just not the case.

And on top of all the delay of games, burned timeouts, and basic mismanagement of game situations, you can add this: 73 athletes offered scholarships while in HS. Yeah, the number of scholarship players on the roster may be up to 79 now (giving walk-ons a bunch of scholies - why not, there are oodles available). No matter how you slice it, that is self-imposing NCAA-like sanctions. And Shaw has the gall to say "it's injuries and lack of depth" that has hurt us this season. Why do you think Stanford has been caught with its pants down in certain position groups and lack depth? Because the recruiting has been deficient. And that's also on Shaw.

After the Fiesta Bowl, I openly begged and pleaded for Shaw to hire an accomplished OC and get out of his way, and thought that was all that was needed for Stanford to remain among the Super Elite in college football (that plea was repeated every year, futilely, and after 8 years we still see the crap we saw tonight).

I now seriously wonder if hiring a good OC and getting out of the way will be enough.

In all events, we are now seeing what "All Shaw" teams look like (and the trend line is getting worse). Changes - real changes - have to be made, lest we ensconce at 4-8 for years to come.

BTW, congratulations to the California Golden Bears for winning Big Game and getting the Axe. It was a loooong drought, and I'm sure there is a well-deserved party in Berkeley tonight.

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - yvonne - 11-23-2019

Please, eight years, and somehow, this is the first year that's "All Shaw." 86-33 and 5-3 in bowl games, yet somehow, he's effete.

Maybe you'll get your wish, but I guarantee that if you do, it will be the same cycle of two awful years followed by two good years and a departure that we had had for decades.

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - BostonCard - 11-23-2019

(11-23-2019, 09:16 PM)teejers1 Wrote:
(11-23-2019, 08:29 PM)yvonne Wrote: Yes, Teejers, I've sat next to you. Not very hard to figure out your analysis from Day One.

Yes, it's extremely lazy to look at a bad season and scream "Oh, it's the coach! It must be the exact reason he lost the last major game." No team has a year like this and can blame a single factor. Here are the multiple causes:

1. Not recruiting to the strength of previous seasons (i.e. line, fullback and running back).
2. Injuries, injuries, injuries, especially on the line.
3. Abysmal defense.
4. Coaching decisions.

No team loses by the scores from UCLA, USC and Oregon merely because of scheme.

Yvonne, Shaw has blown so many games with piss poor game management, it's mind-boggling. He does not 'get' the most basic aspects of how to run an offense, yet he insists on calling the plays and running the offense.

How many times has Stanford ever schemed a player open on a pass play in the Shaw Era? You just never see it. Again, mind-boggling.

Every damned time we threw the box out pass to JJ Arcega-Whiteside for a touchdown. “Scheme” is matching the play call to take advantage of a mismatch, and with that play, we matched up JJ’s height and strength so that he could be open even when there was a defender next to him.

BC

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - Leftcoast - 11-24-2019

While we’re getting rid of the Bay Area’s best coaches let’s toss that Steve Kerr guy - Three year downward trend, poor game mgmt, don’t give me injuries as an excuse, thin team because he didn’t backfill properly for stars that left and only won with the previous coach’s core.

What a bum!

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - cardcrimson - 11-24-2019

(11-23-2019, 09:53 PM)BostonCard Wrote:
(11-23-2019, 09:16 PM)teejers1 Wrote:
(11-23-2019, 08:29 PM)yvonne Wrote: Yes, Teejers, I've sat next to you. Not very hard to figure out your analysis from Day One.

Yes, it's extremely lazy to look at a bad season and scream "Oh, it's the coach! It must be the exact reason he lost the last major game." No team has a year like this and can blame a single factor. Here are the multiple causes:

1. Not recruiting to the strength of previous seasons (i.e. line, fullback and running back).
2. Injuries, injuries, injuries, especially on the line.
3. Abysmal defense.
4. Coaching decisions.

No team loses by the scores from UCLA, USC and Oregon merely because of scheme.

Yvonne, Shaw has blown so many games with piss poor game management, it's mind-boggling. He does not 'get' the most basic aspects of how to run an offense, yet he insists on calling the plays and running the offense.

How many times has Stanford ever schemed a player open on a pass play in the Shaw Era? You just never see it. Again, mind-boggling.

Every damned time we threw the box out pass to JJ Arcega-Whiteside for a touchdown. “Scheme” is matching the play call to take advantage of a mismatch, and with that play, we matched up JJ’s height and strength so that he could be open even when there was a defender next to him.

BC

Great point. In Shaw's post game presser, he said he'd take the matchup of the best TE in the country against the best LB in the country all day long. Methinks one would try to isolate the best TE in the country against anyone but the best LB in the country.

Too reminiscent of running four straight plays between the tackles.

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - pefloresjr - 11-24-2019

(11-24-2019, 09:43 AM)Leftcoast Wrote: While we’re getting rid of Bay Area coaches let’s toss that Steve Kerr guy. Three year downward trend, poor game mgmt, don’t give me injuries as an excuse and only won with the previous coaches core.

What a bum!

Exactly! While we're at it, why not include that Tara VanDerveer? Hasn't won a title since 1992! Sticking to that outdated triangle offense for years when everyone knew beyond all possible doubt that you could never succeed with it but Tara was just too stubborn to change. She also keeps her inside Tara program coaches for way too long. She clearly needed an outside brilliant offensive mind to fix the team. And her recruiting for many years just wasn't up to the quality we expect and even the players we were getting weren't being coached up enough. We went four years in a row where we lost in the first and second rounds of the tournament in the late 90s. Tara probably wasn't working hard enough at recruiting because she had become so complacent and smug after winning the 96 Olympics. Also, the fans who supported her were complicit in the team's decline because we left it to her to take care of business. There have been several 4-5 year periods where the downward trajectory was clear and obvious to all who were not suffering from blind loyalty. I mean, her team hasn't even won the Pac-12 regular season title for over 5 years! And all those knee injuries were definitely her responsibility if not her fault. She is definitely at fault for the attendance at women's basketball being down. Yet somehow, by being allowed the time to work through both the highs and the lows, that stubborn fool is getting some of the best recruits of her career; has revamped the offense a few times to suit her players; and is again bringing the team back to an elite level. But just think of how much better the team would have been if she had only listened to angry criticisms of the brilliant fans.

Cheers,
Pete F.

RE: Fiesta Bowl all over again - cardcrimson - 11-24-2019

(11-24-2019, 10:43 AM)pefloresjr Wrote:
(11-24-2019, 09:43 AM)Leftcoast Wrote: While we’re getting rid of Bay Area coaches let’s toss that Steve Kerr guy. Three year downward trend, poor game mgmt, don’t give me injuries as an excuse and only won with the previous coaches core.

What a bum!

Exactly! While we're at it, why not include that Tara VanDerveer? Hasn't won a title since 1992! Sticking to that outdated triangle offense for years when everyone knew beyond all possible doubt that you could never succeed with it but Tara was just too stubborn to change. She also keeps her inside Tara program coaches for way too long. She clearly needed an outside brilliant offensive mind to fix the team. And her recruiting for many years just wasn't up to the quality we expect and even the players we were getting weren't being coached up enough. We went four years in a row where we lost in the first and second rounds of the tournament in the late 90s. Tara probably wasn't working hard enough at recruiting because she had become so complacent and smug after winning the 96 Olympics. Also, the fans who supported her were complicit in the team's decline because we left it to her to take care of business. There have been several 4-5 year periods where the downward trajectory was clear and obvious to all who were not suffering from blind loyalty. I mean, her team hasn't even won the Pac-12 regular season title for over 5 years! And all those knee injuries were definitely her responsibility if not her fault. She is definitely at fault for the attendance at women's basketball being down. Yet somehow, by being allowed the time to work through both the highs and the lows, that stubborn fool is getting some of the best recruits of her career; has revamped the offense a few times to suit her players; and is again bringing the team back to an elite level. But just think of how much better the team would have been if she had only listened to angry criticisms of the brilliant fans.

Cheers,
Pete F.

So I guess you're fine Stanford football's coaching staff and would like to see no changes for the foreseeable future in either personnel or strategy.